GWR Class 800

[Thunderer]

It looks to me as though the Selective door release seems to be the most troublesome problem since introduction to passenger service.

The train concerned was the 15:29 Swansea to Paddington..I was on this from Swansea. It left 15 mins late from Swansea because of an issue with external doors closing properly. I only took it as far as Cardiff where it left about 14 late (800010+800012 were the units) - do it didn't make it to Paddington eh?

 

[Filton Bank]

The train concerned was the 15:29 Swansea to Paddington..I was on this from Swansea. It left 15 mins late from Swansea because of an issue with external doors closing properly. I only took it as far as Cardiff where it left about 14 late (800010+800012 were the units) - do it didn't make it to Paddington eh?

That was a different issue. 1L76 left Swansea late as a hustle alarm wouldn't silence when the guard closed the doors. 1L82 (mentioned earlier in the thread) was cancelled because platform staff at Bristol Parkway reported BILs illuminating on the non-platform side. This was mistakenly thought to be due to a wrong-side door release, but the BILs are designed to illuminate on both sides (as on almost all other rolling stock). By the time this mistake was realised, the decision had been made to detrain and run the units into Stoke Gifford.

 

[shaun]

Had a ride on the 1435 from Bristol. Departed late due to a technical issue and was delayed further at Didcot due to a passenger incident.

The train itself was impressive as expected, very spacious and mostly a quiet ride save for the whine from I presume the electric motors once off the diesel power. Could not hear the diesel engines from coach B unless I walked further up the train, even then they were quiet and didn't vibrate the train. The seats offered a good posture, slightly firm on the rear but hopefully they will bed in after more use. Legroom was excellent. Didn't try FC but it looked nice enough... The most important thing was I felt like i was on an INTERCITY train rather than a commuter or (like the Voyager) a regional one. A fine replacement for the HST. Shame Crosscountry are not getting in on these, as otherwise I'd be much more inclined to travel by rail!

 

[Blillpers]

I got the chance to ride one of the new trains on the 1900 Paddington - Bristol TM and here are a few thoughts from someone "from the outside". Sorry in advance for any grammar or spelling mistakes.

The trolley service is fine for such a short journey, but for the 5-hour trip to Penzance I would miss a proper café. I understand that this is an extremely busy commuter route, so every seat counts.

I found the standard class seats horribly stiff, I've ridden on subway trains with better ones. I know that stiffer seats can be comfortable, for example I recently switched out my 1990s Volvo, with armchair-like seats for a new Mercedes C-class, the latter has much less padding but is still better for long drives. The IEP, however, I just found plainly uncomfortable.

Then again the high-density HSTs have equally poor seats. The noise was fine until the diesel engines kicked in. A Mk3 is lightyears better in this aspect. Also, is it really nessecary to have the automated announements going on all the time? Very annoying. I found the interior lighting very sharp and sterile, like in a hospital. A slight yellow tint would make it much more comfortable, and maybe dim it down a bit in the mornings and late evenings?

Out of curiosity, for how long will the HSTs be around on GWR long-distance services?

Now I'm just hoping for a HST on the 0815 back to London tomorrow...

 

[50031]

I got the chance to ride one of the new trains on the 1900 Paddington - Bristol TM and here are a few thoughts from someone "from the outside". Sorry in advance for any grammar or spelling mistakes.

The trolley service is fine for such a short journey, but for the 5-hour trip to Penzance I would miss a proper café. I understand that this is an extremely busy commuter route, so every seat counts.

I found the standard class seats horribly stiff, I've ridden on subway trains with better ones. I know that stiffer seats can be comfortable, for example I recently switched out my 1990s Volvo, with armchair-like seats for a new Mercedes C-class, the latter has much less padding but is still better for long drives. The IEP, however, I just found plainly uncomfortable.

Then again the high-density HSTs have equally poor seats. The noise was fine until the diesel engines kicked in. A Mk3 is lightyears better in this aspect. Also, is it really nessecary to have the automated announements going on all the time? Very annoying. I found the interior lighting very sharp and sterile, like in a hospital. A slight yellow tint would make it much more comfortable, and maybe dim it down a bit in the mornings and late evenings?

Out of curiosity, for how long will the HSTs be around on GWR long-distance services?

Now I'm just hoping for a HST on the 0815 back to London tomorrow...

Last HST replaced in West Country around March 2019. Many people actually think the ambience is good overall. I was pleasantly surprised, though I agree the seats are firm. I think the lighting is very good, both day and night. Haven't travelled long distance on them yet. Seats apart, they are what a voyager should have been.

 

[coppercapped]

I got the chance to ride one of the new trains on the 1900 Paddington - Bristol TM and here are a few thoughts from someone "from the outside". Sorry in advance for any grammar or spelling mistakes.

The trolley service is fine for such a short journey, but for the 5-hour trip to Penzance I would miss a proper café. I understand that this is an extremely busy commuter route, so every seat counts.

I found the standard class seats horribly stiff, I've ridden on subway trains with better ones. I know that stiffer seats can be comfortable, for example I recently switched out my 1990s Volvo, with armchair-like seats for a new Mercedes C-class, the latter has much less padding but is still better for long drives. The IEP, however, I just found plainly uncomfortable.

Then again the high-density HSTs have equally poor seats. The noise was fine until the diesel engines kicked in. A Mk3 is lightyears better in this aspect. Also, is it really nessecary to have the automated announements going on all the time? Very annoying. I found the interior lighting very sharp and sterile, like in a hospital. A slight yellow tint would make it much more comfortable, and maybe dim it down a bit in the mornings and late evenings?

Out of curiosity, for how long will the HSTs be around on GWR long-distance services?

Now I'm just hoping for a HST on the 0815 back to London tomorrow...

Having tried the IETs on four journeys between Paddington, Reading and Didcot over the last 10 days or so I agree with much of this post.
In the front coach of the train under electric power out of Paddington there is a background drone which after a while is tiring. The ride in a diesel power coach with the engine running is not better than a Mark 3, there is a high frequency vibration on the tables and the vertical suspension feels 'nervous'. The horizontal movement is well controlled but no better than a Mark 3 or indeed of a Class 165 or 166 at 90 miles/h.

As others have noticed, the seats are very firm but have, for me, good lumbar support. The longest journey I have made was from London to Didcot so I don't know how I would feel after a couple of hours in them. The legroom is satisfactory and the lower tops to the seatbacks make them less claustrophobic than the high density HSTs. The very grey interior is drab during the short November days but may be less noticeable in spring and summer.

Externally, the train outline is very 'bitty' - there are festoons of cables in the long gap between coach ends, the corners of the door pockets show water stains where the slipstream has carried the rain away over the coach side, the roof line is fussy and there are all sorts of bits and bobs hanging from the underside. A far cry from the elegance of the Mark 3 and 4s.

Although the engine noise is well damped it is still noticeable - for people travelling in a powered coach travelling for several hours west of Newbury or Bristol to Devon and Cornwall when the electrification is complete these trains are a definite step backwards from the Mark 3.

As the train was new most fixtures and fittings that I tried seemed to work - toilets, doors and so on. This doesn't seem to be true of the traction equipment, on one of my journeys one of the diesel engines was not running - the 10 coach train left Didcot with 5 engines out of the 6 running!

Overall it was a set of ho-hum experiences. For the amount of time and money that has been spent on these trains and leaving the seats aside, one would expect something significantly better in ride, noise level and vibrations than the 40 year old Mark 3s. We can now look forward to another quarter of a century of a very average train.

 

[Railperf]

For those wondering how Class 800 trains perform compared to HST's and other traction, The Railway Performance Society have just published some interesting technical analysis here .. http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/iet

 

[DidcotDickie]

For those wondering how Class 800 trains perform compared to HST's and other traction, The Railway Performance Society have just published some interesting technical analysis here .. http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/iet

Thank you. Very interesting. Much of what is reported corresponds to my own experience on the runs I have made from Didcot.

 

[TwistedMentat]

For those wondering how Class 800 trains perform compared to HST's and other traction, The Railway Performance Society have just published some interesting technical analysis here .. http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/iet

Neat. Always good to have hard data.

And again looks like more evidence showing that the 800 is being pressed into diesel mode when it was never designed to. Long stretches of 120mph running. Which should largely be fixed once the main section of electrification is complete. The fact it can even get close is nice. Good work to the Hitachi team for managing to tweak the existing hardware.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I made it for a quick Reading and back...here's some thoughts (live from Coach K seat 60 ).

* Nice and quiet, smooth riding (though gets a bit bumpier at speed, no Mk3 sway).
* The lime green isn't quite as unpleasant as it could be, though it does cheapen it a bit. Same as the newer Southern Electrostars. Grey seats and wood effect ends work quite well.
* Small bog adequate for having a quick #1, though the doorhandle was a bit awkward.
* Someone eating a curry in this coach (why don't other TOCs display the "please don't eat hot food on trains" Merseyrail used to?) - however the aircon is good enough that I can only just smell it 3 rows away (edit: 10 mins later smell gone completely). Temperature spot on, same as a Desiro (so cold for some). Aircon fairly quiet.
* Seats as I thought are the same as the ScotRail 385 1st. I don't mind them being hard (indeed I like ironing boards) but they aren't shaped right for a long back (like Turbostar seats) and so I have to slouch to be comfortable otherwise my shoulders are pushed forwards by the headrest. But...
* ...legroom is excellent, best of any UK train, so this is no *great* issue. Could be better, though. I'd rather ironing boards.
* Flickery LED PIS - cheap components? Could be an issue for epileptics?
* Lighting not bad at all - a warmer colour than the GWR norm, and well diffused. LED based but unlike the PIS not flickery. Not perfect (could be classier), but certainly on a par with other acceptable stock like Desiros.
* Overhead racks massive, would take even the largest bag easily. Who said this wasn't allowed any more when they built terrible designs with little more than a coat rack like the Turbostar and Adelante?
* Tables robust and laptop pull-out handy, though they don't go quite horizontal. There is a bit of a judder making the screen a little hard to read, though.
* Smallish windows, but in the "high floor" coaches positioned just about perfectly for a good view out, as long as you don't get a wall seat.
* Fairly narrow, like 180s I catch the seats walking through being quite broad.
* Acceleration and braking very quick.
* Blinds present, these are a right nuisance because they cause arguments - please get rid in future designs or put up signs making clear the state in the event of dispute like the French do for windows.
* Reservations appear not to be working.
* Step up into "high floor coaches" quite noticeable (as is the ramp at the corridor connection, a bit like SBB EW I/IIs), but as mentioned I find the window height in these preferable. My head is close to the ceiling in those coaches, though. Should have done the whole train like that. Note that the ramp is at the corridor connection, so if you don't walk through you'll only notice the high (as per Voyager or 185) floor.
* Fair bit of vibration at speed, possibly some fine tuning needed.
* Screw covers in seat handles will be gone within a few weeks, too loose. Similarly the folding coat hooks won't last.
* Seat supports positioned such that the window side one doesn't get in the way of your foot. But like Adelantes not bolted to the wall, probably causing the judder noted above. Poor design feature there; I expect they'll develop more wobbling over time. Surprised they were not cantilevered.
* Sloped top of heating conduit so I can't put my foot on it.

Not tried 1st, GWR don't offer a decently priced First Off Peak or I would. Maybe another day. Looked OK though.

So overall...not bad, though not perfect. Take the seats out and replace with Grammer IC3000 (or even E3000 as in the Desiro seat) and I would be sold, though.

Update re seats: 25 mins in and my back really doesn't like the shape. I suspect fine for a shorter person though. Definitely prefer ironing boards.

Edit: turns out we were running on diesel for at least some of the journey. Wasn't audible - I can hear more engine noise in the rear coach of this HST (which, notably, is on one of the other IEP diagrams - so check before you travel!)

 

[387star]

A hard act to follow

Travelling to York on GC and VT I am reminded how wonderful the HST is

Cool air blowing through the coaches a spacious buffet where the staff can even move ! Comfortable seats and excellent ride quality and noise levels

They really were built to last

 

[387star]

Ironing boards on a 800 are you mad ? Bramling would be happy

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ironing boards on a 800 are you mad ? Bramling would be happy

The seats it has are as hard as ironing boards and hurt my back as they are the wrong shape (this Grammer IC3000 I'm sitting in is very comfortable ). Ironing boards don't hurt my back.

They should have a quality InterCity seat like said Grammers.

As for those seats being First Class on the ScotRail 385s (as they are)...I'd rather travel Standard, just like on all LM 350s (except /2) where the Standard seats are more comfortable and with more legroom than the First Class ones due to an extremely poor selection of seat.

 

[coppercapped]

So I made it for a quick Reading and back...here's some thoughts (live from Coach K seat 60 ).

* Nice and quiet, smooth riding (though gets a bit bumpier at speed, no Mk3 sway).
* The lime green isn't quite as unpleasant as it could be, though it does cheapen it a bit. Same as the newer Southern Electrostars. Grey seats and wood effect ends work quite well.
* Small bog adequate for having a quick #1, though the doorhandle was a bit awkward.
* Someone eating a curry in this coach (why don't other TOCs display the "please don't eat hot food on trains" Merseyrail used to?) - however the aircon is good enough that I can only just smell it 3 rows away (edit: 10 mins later smell gone completely). Temperature spot on, same as a Desiro (so cold for some). Aircon fairly quiet.
* Seats as I thought are the same as the ScotRail 385 1st. I don't mind them being hard (indeed I like ironing boards) but they aren't shaped right for a long back (like Turbostar seats) and so I have to slouch to be comfortable otherwise my shoulders are pushed forwards by the headrest. But...
* ...legroom is excellent, best of any UK train, so this is no *great* issue. Could be better, though. I'd rather ironing boards.
* Flickery LED PIS - cheap components? Could be an issue for epileptics?
* Lighting not bad at all - a warmer colour than the GWR norm, and well diffused. LED based but unlike the PIS not flickery. Not perfect (could be classier), but certainly on a par with other acceptable stock like Desiros.
* Overhead racks massive, would take even the largest bag easily. Who said this wasn't allowed any more when they built terrible designs with little more than a coat rack like the Turbostar and Adelante?
* Tables robust and laptop pull-out handy, though they don't go quite horizontal. There is a bit of a judder making the screen a little hard to read, though.
* Smallish windows, but in the "high floor" coaches positioned just about perfectly for a good view out, as long as you don't get a wall seat.
* Fairly narrow, like 180s I catch the seats walking through being quite broad.
* Acceleration and braking very quick.
* Blinds present, these are a right nuisance because they cause arguments - please get rid in future designs or put up signs making clear the state in the event of dispute like the French do for windows.
* Reservations appear not to be working.
* Step up into "high floor coaches" quite noticeable (as is the ramp at the corridor connection, a bit like SBB EW I/IIs), but as mentioned I find the window height in these preferable. My head is close to the ceiling in those coaches, though. Should have done the whole train like that. Note that the ramp is at the corridor connection, so if you don't walk through you'll only notice the high (as per Voyager or 185) floor.
* Fair bit of vibration at speed, possibly some fine tuning needed.
* Screw covers in seat handles will be gone within a few weeks, too loose. Similarly the folding coat hooks won't last.
* Seat supports positioned such that the window side one doesn't get in the way of your foot. But like Adelantes not bolted to the wall, probably causing the judder noted above. Poor design feature there; I expect they'll develop more wobbling over time. Surprised they were not cantilevered.
* Sloped top of heating conduit so I can't put my foot on it.

Not tried 1st, GWR don't offer a decently priced First Off Peak or I would. Maybe another day. Looked OK though.

So overall...not bad, though not perfect. Take the seats out and replace with Grammer IC3000 (or even E3000 as in the Desiro seat) and I would be sold, though.

Update re seats: 25 mins in and my back really doesn't like the shape. I suspect fine for a shorter person though. Definitely prefer ironing boards.

Edit: turns out we were running on diesel for at least some of the journey. Wasn't audible - I can hear more engine noise in the rear coach of this HST (which, notably, is on one of the other IEP diagrams - so check before you travel!)

The diesel engine is mounted towards one end of the vehicle. If you sit over it it is noticeable - at the other end not so much.
As I previously wrote, I found the vertical ride to be a bit 'nervous' - some high frequency low amplitude vibrations which do not exist in hauled Mark 3s. Considering that billions have been and will be spent on the train and forty years development lie between it and its predecessor I am more than underwhelmed by the result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not wishing to pay to go to Reading any more times than necessary, and with my appointment in London having been cancelled, I've decided to compare the seats by taking a 387 to West Ealing then doing the Greenford branch (which I've never got round to).

It might disappoint, though I think it is genuinely the case, that these suburban EMUs have a more comfortable and more pleasing on the eye interior (albeit slightly less, but still acceptable, legroom). The dark green accenting works better, the lighting is nicer (though one emergency spotlight seems to be stuck on, oddly), and the green and grey seat fabric nicer. And the windows are bigger and there are no stupid blinds. And for me as a tall person the ironing boards (same hardness as the 800 seats) are genuinely more comfortable. And the PIS screens don't flicker. And the seats are bolted to the wall. Only failure is the tiny luggage racks typical of everything ADtranz/Bombardier made since about 2000 (and this is so easy to resolve, too, the First Class compartment on ScotRail Turbostars has a different, much larger, glass rack design).

This is actually making me slightly disappointed. I'm not genuinely suggesting using 110mph suburban EMUs on crack expresses to Bristol, but I bet you'd get twice as many 387 coaches for the price of 800 coaches - at least!

FWIW, GWR seem to have used the ScotRail-style slightly contoured cushions on their ironing boards, compared with the completely flat ones used on 700s.

Another item I noticed on the 800 was a few poorly fitting panels - not what I expected from a Japanese built train!

 

[Railperf]

Neat. Always good to have hard data.

And again looks like more evidence showing that the 800 is being pressed into diesel mode when it was never designed to. Long stretches of 120mph running.

It does raise concerns about how well IET;s will perform on more challenging routes. They cannot match HST timings even on the sub 100-mph sections.

 

[Railperf]

Any truth in the suggestion that 800 001 to 800 015 are NOT YET upgraded to 940HP? But that 800 016 onwards are?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Any truth in the suggestion that 800 001 to 800 015 are NOT YET upgraded to 940HP? But that 800 016 onwards are?

None. You wouldn't get near 125mph if they were still at 565kw. What may be happening is that there is another (or existing) software version out which is being fitted as factory standard from unit 16. Hitachi are being somewhat coy about any mods to the software, for obvious reasons.

 

[Mag_seven]

Smallish windows, but in the "high floor" coaches positioned just about perfectly for a good view out, as long as you don't get a wall seat.

Nice clear windows with none of that awful "tint" you get in their HST's which makes it look almost dark outside if its dull.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nice clear windows with none of that awful "tint" you get in their HST's which makes it look almost dark outside if its dull.

Indeed, it also helps that the lighting is cool white rather than that horrid daylight colour that makes outside seem warmer even on the most miserable of Autumn days.

While the rest of it is a bit bog-standard and average (though inoffensive, and some quite good points), the seats are a real killer - I had a sore back after 30 minutes because I either had to slouch or have my shoulders forced uncomfortably forwards. I genuinely found the Class 387 more comfortable. It's a shame the Javelin seats could not have been used.

Is the seat a Japanese design, perhaps intended for the much shorter average person you get over there? If the back was the same height as the Grammer IC3000 or ironing board it might actually have been OK for me. Even the Grammer E3000 used on the 350s (sat in one right now!) is fine despite being a similar shape, because the headrest contour is higher up.

Yes, I'm quite tall - though it's more in my legs than in my body, and over the 30-50 years these things are going to be in service people will only be getting taller, as they have generally over the past 30-50 years.

 

[Railperf]

None. You wouldn't get near 125mph if they were still at 565kw.

How come they struggle to get to 118mph on the level...not much more than unless they are going downhill by all accounts?

 

[D1009]

How come they struggle to get to 118mph on the level...not much more than unless they are going downhill by all accounts?

These questions have been answered earlier in the thread. They are not losing significant time due to performance, and that is what matters.

 

[Railperf]

These questions have been answered earlier in the thread. They are not losing significant time due to performance, and that is what matters.

The questions haven't really been answered satisfactorily. They are losing time on almost every section including the crucial sub-100mph sections where their superior low speed acceleration is supposed to improve journey times.

 

[Domh245]

Is the seat a Japanese design, perhaps intended for the much shorter average person you get over there?

Nope - they're Fainsa. First class is fitted with "MD", standard is fitted with "Sophia"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nope - they're Fainsa. First class is fitted with "MD", standard is fitted with "Sophia"

Ta. Probably explains the similarity to "ironing boards", but I definitely prefer ironing boards.

I hope they are replaced with something better (or at least a better shape of cushion) at some point.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The questions haven't really been answered satisfactorily. They are losing time on almost every section including the crucial sub-100mph sections where their superior low speed acceleration is supposed to improve journey times.

I haven't seen any evidence of this, all of the graphs seem to refer to performance at >50mph. They also don't take into account quicker dwell times due to the power doors.

 

[Dai Corner]

The questions haven't really been answered satisfactorily. They are losing time on almost every section including the crucial sub-100mph sections where their superior low speed acceleration is supposed to improve journey times.

But they're getting to Cardiff/Bristol/Swansea/Paddington on time aren't they? That's what they have to do to satisfy the operators and passengers. No improved journey times are due until the Jan 19 (?) timetables come in and as far as I know the public timetables are not yet in the public domain let alone sectional running times. The improved journey times advertised may well be achieved by running 'fast' trains with fewer stops. In the 1980s Temple Meads - Paddington took 15 mins longer with five stops than it did with two.

The timings and analysis you and others have published are of interest to many of us and will form a good historic record after the wires go up to Thingley Jn and Cardiff but I don't feel there are grounds for criticising the IETs performance on diesel power.

 

[Thatcham Xing]

Noted 800 015 in the depot at Reading this morning as I was passing - a fairly new one I guess?

At North Pole I think I saw 802 001 sticking it's nose out of the sheds - if so is that a 9-coach unit?

 

[Domh245]

Noted 800 015 in the depot at Reading this morning as I was passing - a fairly new one I guess?

At North Pole I think I saw 802 001 sticking it's nose out of the sheds - if so is that a 9-coach unit?

802001 is a 5 car - 802101 is a 9 car

 

[D1009]

Noted 800 015 in the depot at Reading this morning as I was passing - a fairly new one I guess?

At North Pole I think I saw 802 001 sticking it's nose out of the sheds - if so is that a 9-coach unit?

No, 802101 is the 9 car, 802001 is a 5 car.