GWR Dec 19 timetable

[Class 33]

You really need to get out more(apart from your fast trip to Bristol)

I do get out more!

But I'm very enthusuastic about these new Bristol-London express services. Been waiting nearly 20 years for them! About bloody time they were brought back again! I'm sure a number of other enthusiasts are glad about these new services too. I won't be the only one!

 

[404250]

Would a non stop to Temple meads via Bath route not be quicker than via Parkway? I don't really count it as non stop to Bristol if it stops at Parkway.

 

[Mag_seven]

Hello all. Virtually just now I was looking at Tiger train times for the 20:06 London Paddington train from Oxford (ex-19:44 from Banbury) and it says 9 coaches. If anyone knows the carriage allocation better than me, is this booked for a 9-car?

If it is then that's handy as it will mean probably a less than half full train to Oxford.

I might think of going to Banbury to experience an IET from here once the clocks go forward. To avoid the crush on the Voyagers, I'll escape it by catching the 16:24 stopping train from Oxford.

I'm impressed that from Banbury back to Oxford that there's the IET at 19:44 then the Bournemouth train at 19:55, the stopping train at 20:07 then the XC Reading train at 20:19. Not bad!

The outward working to Banbury was a 9 car although there had been some set swaps at Padd so not sure if it was actually booked a 9 car. Note that as I type this the return working has still to leave Banbury due to an issue at Oxford.

 

[Ian10]

I sampled the new GWR timetable today travelling on the 0954 from Truro to Exeter and 1414 back.
My train to Exeter ran to time and the Train Manager even came on the PA at Plymouth to explain why we were waiting for 10mins. The Penzance portion was full and even though a lot got out at Plymouth they were replaced by people who could have travelled in the portion starting empty there. Are waiting passengers encouraged to go to the front portion?
The seat reservation system was not working but seats on the Cornish portion had paper reservations. The Plymouth portion did not and there was an apology for this. It’s a persistent problem which has been with us ever since the introduction of the IETs. Shouldn’t this have been sorted by now?
I observed movements at St Davids for an hour and was impressed that all seemed to be well except for some late running as a consequence of problems between Paddington and Reading earlier in the day. This was good for the first weekday of the new timetable.
My return train - 1204 from Paddington, 1414 from Exeter - was seven minutes late. It had been on time from Paddington and the delay appears to have been incurred on the Berks and Hants. This was a very busy train but I think most got seats between Exeter and Plymouth. However, the five coaches beyond Plymouth were ‘full and standing’. I really wonder how all the Penzance trains will cope with just five coaches. I note that the 1604 from Paddington was five coaches throughout today. That must have been a nightmare. My train lost time and was 17mins late in Truro. I fear that there will not be enough capacity on Paddington trains through Cornwall and too much on the four coach HST ‘locals’.
I thought that GWR did well today compared with some other TOCs. The capacity issues west of Plymouth on Paddington trains will need to be addressed. Five coach trains at busy times will not cope.

 

[Rich McLean]

I sampled the new GWR timetable today travelling on the 0954 from Truro to Exeter and 1414 back.
My train to Exeter ran to time and the Train Manager even came on the PA at Plymouth to explain why we were waiting for 10mins. The Penzance portion was full and even though a lot got out at Plymouth they were replaced by people who could have travelled in the portion starting empty there. Are waiting passengers encouraged to go to the front portion?
The seat reservation system was not working but seats on the Cornish portion had paper reservations. The Plymouth portion did not and there was an apology for this. It’s a persistent problem which has been with us ever since the introduction of the IETs. Shouldn’t this have been sorted by now?
I observed movements at St Davids for an hour and was impressed that all seemed to be well except for some late running as a consequence of problems between Paddington and Reading earlier in the day. This was good for the first weekday of the new timetable.
My return train - 1204 from Paddington, 1414 from Exeter - was seven minutes late. It had been on time from Paddington and the delay appears to have been incurred on the Berks and Hants. This was a very busy train but I think most got seats between Exeter and Plymouth. However, the five coaches beyond Plymouth were ‘full and standing’. I really wonder how all the Penzance trains will cope with just five coaches. I note that the 1604 from Paddington was five coaches throughout today. That must have been a nightmare. My train lost time and was 17mins late in Truro. I fear that there will not be enough capacity on Paddington trains through Cornwall and too much on the four coach HST ‘locals’.
I thought that GWR did well today compared with some other TOCs. The capacity issues west of Plymouth on Paddington trains will need to be addressed. Five coach trains at busy times will not cope.

Don't forget at this time of the year it's the Chritmas rush, and those trains all week will be wedged. On Friday and Saturday, I expect many passengers won't be able to fit in the front portion at Plymouth, so will have to wait for the next local Castle or 158 unit to take them forward and possibly submit a delay repay claim

 

[irish_rail]

I sampled the new GWR timetable today travelling on the 0954 from Truro to Exeter and 1414 back.
My train to Exeter ran to time and the Train Manager even came on the PA at Plymouth to explain why we were waiting for 10mins. The Penzance portion was full and even though a lot got out at Plymouth they were replaced by people who could have travelled in the portion starting empty there. Are waiting passengers encouraged to go to the front portion?
The seat reservation system was not working but seats on the Cornish portion had paper reservations. The Plymouth portion did not and there was an apology for this. It’s a persistent problem which has been with us ever since the introduction of the IETs. Shouldn’t this have been sorted by now?
I observed movements at St Davids for an hour and was impressed that all seemed to be well except for some late running as a consequence of problems between Paddington and Reading earlier in the day. This was good for the first weekday of the new timetable.
My return train - 1204 from Paddington, 1414 from Exeter - was seven minutes late. It had been on time from Paddington and the delay appears to have been incurred on the Berks and Hants. This was a very busy train but I think most got seats between Exeter and Plymouth. However, the five coaches beyond Plymouth were ‘full and standing’. I really wonder how all the Penzance trains will cope with just five coaches. I note that the 1604 from Paddington was five coaches throughout today. That must have been a nightmare. My train lost time and was 17mins late in Truro. I fear that there will not be enough capacity on Paddington trains through Cornwall and too much on the four coach HST ‘locals’.
I thought that GWR did well today compared with some other TOCs. The capacity issues west of Plymouth on Paddington trains will need to be addressed. Five coach trains at busy times will not cope.

We've been saying for ages that certain services won't cut the mustard as a 5 through Cornwall the 1204 off padd being one of them. Your observations suggest my worst fears will be realised. Let's hope you were just unlucky. But if it's like that on a Monday I think there is no hope for a Friday. Interesting times ahead.....

 

[irish_rail]

The outward working to Banbury was a 9 car although there had been some set swaps at Padd so not sure if it was actually booked a 9 car. Note that as I type this the return working has still to leave Banbury due to an issue at Oxford.

Meanwhile we have empty 9 car sets running to and from Banbury. I only wish GWR prioitsed it's long distance travellers the way it does it's commuters......

 

[cactustwirly]

I do get out more!

But I'm very enthusuastic about these new Bristol-London express services. Been waiting nearly 20 years for them! About bloody time they were brought back again! I'm sure a number of other enthusiasts are glad about these new services too. I won't be the only one!

I don't get what's so special about these services but ok

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Would a non stop to Temple meads via Bath route not be quicker than via Parkway? I don't really count it as non stop to Bristol if it stops at Parkway.

Via Badminton (i.e. Bristol Parkway) is slightly quicker than via Box (Bath Spa).
Note: Especially if you get a clear run down Filton Bank and through Westerleigh Jct, made easier by the four tracking!

 

[Deepgreen]

I do feel sorry for GWR to be honest as it must be embarrassing for them having now 17 cancellations on their JourneyCheck page on the first day of the new timetable!

Hopefully from this week it doesn't get worse.

I don't understand why you "feel sorry for GWR" - like all TOCs, they are paying a handsome profit to their shareholders with public subsidy while failing to operate or plan competently. The TOCs are detached from being embarrassed - they are faceless sectors of finance groups who bid against similar groups to see who would be allowed to take the subsidy in exchange for minimal performance. TOC after TOC is failing to introduce new timetables properly and the fact that the number of available bidders for their contracts is tiny, and dropping, means that they cannot be punished properly for poor performance because there is no-one else to whom to give the franchise. Five more years of fun ahead!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I don't understand why you "feel sorry for GWR" - like all TOCs, they are paying a handsome profit to their shareholders with public subsidy while failing to operate or plan competently. The TOCs are detached from being embarrassed - they are faceless sectors of finance groups who bid against similar groups to see who would be allowed to take the subsidy in exchange for minimal performance. TOC after TOC is failing to introduce new timetables properly and the fact that the number of available bidders for their contracts is tiny, and dropping, means that they cannot be punished properly for poor performance because there is no-one else to whom to give the franchise. Five more years of fun ahead!

I think he was referring to the cancellations which I believe have been caused by some infrastructure / signalling difficulties? Which even to the most myopic observer can hardly be blamed on the TOC. From the sound of it, today has gone quite well for GWR barring these issues. The ‘inevitable timetable collapse’ that certain posters have been predicting for months certainly hasn’t happened. Some of the predictions about 5-car Cornish portions may have been closer to the mark and no doubt will need to be addressed.

 

[Rich McLean]

I think he was referring to the cancellations which I believe have been caused by some infrastructure / signalling difficulties? Which even to the most myopic observer can hardly be blamed on the TOC. From the sound of it, today has gone quite well for GWR barring these issues. The ‘inevitable timetable collapse’ that certain posters have been predicting for months certainly hasn’t happened. Some of the predictions about 5-car Cornish portions may have been closer to the mark and no doubt will need to be addressed.

When HSTs ruled the roost on HSS diagrams, on certain services at certain times of year, it was not unsual for up trains to be full and standing by Truro and leaving passengers behind by Plymouth, and imagine its the same in the other direction.

In the meantime, it may well mean on certain services around Easter, Christmas and the summer, to have Plymouth as set down only on the down and pick up only on the up now that there is a half hourly service in Cornwall if there is no available stock to make them 10 car throughout.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

When HSTs ruled the roost on HSS diagrams, on certain services at certain times of year, it was not unsual for up trains to be full and standing by Truro and leaving passengers behind by Plymouth, and imagine its the same in the other direction.

In the meantime, it may well mean on certain services around Easter, Christmas and the summer, to have Plymouth as set down only on the down and pick up only on the up now that there is a half hourly service in Cornwall if there is no available stock to make them 10 car throughout.

A good idea in theory, but would require DfT permission as it would likely be breaching the franchise specification for provision of journey oportunities between Plymouth and Penzance etc.

 

[Rich McLean]

A good idea in theory, but would require DfT permission as it would likely be breaching the franchise specification for provision of journey oportunities between Plymouth and Penzance etc.

The alternitave is that London passengers get left behind at places like Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard being unable to board, and cornwall passengers from Plymouth wedging themselves onto the packed front portion, with cornish passengers on the rear unit unable to board and then again left behind

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I agree, I’m just saying it would require DfT agreement regardless of the realities.

 

[jimm]

Meanwhile we have empty 9 car sets running to and from Banbury. I only wish GWR prioitsed it's long distance travellers the way it does it's commuters......

Day one and the broken record comes out yet again...

Do you think a train departing from Banbury at 07.45 for Oxford, which continues as the 08.07 to Paddington, arriving there at 09.01, will be empty?

Or a train leaving Paddington heading to Oxford and Banbury at 18.28?

Of course it is then going to be quiet on the way back from Banbury at 19.44 - not even the most amazing bit of yield management jiggery-pokery with dirt-cheap advances would fill that one - in much the same way that there would be acres of empty seats if there was a procession of nine-car sets through Cornwall all the time.

I think the number of passengers using Oxford station alone (never mind the rest of the Thames Valley and beyond) might explain why GWR spends a bit of the time worrying about the mere 'commuters' who use its services and each cough up £5,200+ a year for a season ticket to London from Oxford and nearby stations.

The estimated passenger entries and exits at Oxford totted up to 7,984,000 in 2017-18, up from a pretty steady 6.5 to 6.6 million for several years before that. Never mind the rest of the Thames Valley, etc.

The total number of estimated passenger entries and exits across the whole of Cornwall in 2017-18, summer holiday season and all, was, er, 6,453,406.

With a great many of them, of course, not going anywhere near a long-distance train, such as on the Falmouth and St Ives branches, which by themselves account for getting on for a quarter of that total for Cornwall.

 

[irish_rail]

Day one and the broken record comes out yet again...

Do you think a train departing from Banbury at 07.45 for Oxford, which continues as the 08.07 to Paddington, arriving there at 09.01, will be empty?

Or a train leaving Paddington heading to Oxford and Banbury at 18.28?

Of course it is then going to be quiet on the way back from Banbury at 19.44 - not even the most amazing bit of yield management jiggery-pokery with dirt-cheap advances would fill that one - in much the same way that there would be acres of empty seats if there was a procession of nine-car sets through Cornwall all the time.

I think the number of passengers using Oxford station alone (never mind the rest of the Thames Valley and beyond) might explain why GWR spends a bit of the time worrying about the mere 'commuters' who use its services and each cough up £5,200+ a year for a season ticket to London from Oxford and nearby stations.

The estimated passenger entries and exits at Oxford totted up to 7,984,000 in 2017-18, up from a pretty steady 6.5 to 6.6 million for several years before that. Never mind the rest of the Thames Valley, etc.

The total number of estimated passenger entries and exits across the whole of Cornwall in 2017-18, summer holiday season and all, was, er, 6,453,406.

With a great many of them, of course, not going anywhere near a long-distance train, such as on the Falmouth and St Ives branches, which by themselves account for getting on for a quarter of that total for Cornwall.

Jimm as other posters have alluded to I have been proved correct on my fears that portion working won't work in Cornwall on all trains. The only solution will be some 9 cars will be needed for certain west country trains. If that means a Banbury has to become a 5 so a 9 can be used on a long distance service then so be it. Why do u think people travelling between Cornwall and London are so unimportant compared with your Cotswold commuters?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Jimm as other posters have alluded to I have been proved correct on my fears that portion working won't work in Cornwall on all trains. The only solution will be some 9 cars will be needed for certain west country trains. If that means a Banbury has to become a 5 so a 9 can be used on a long distance service then so be it. Why do u think people travelling between Cornwall and London are so unimportant compared with your Cotswold commuters?

Making the peak Banbury diagram 5 cars will absolutely not happen, you’d just be swapping one overcrowding issue for another!?!

 

[cactustwirly]

Jimm as other posters have alluded to I have been proved correct on my fears that portion working won't work in Cornwall on all trains. The only solution will be some 9 cars will be needed for certain west country trains. If that means a Banbury has to become a 5 so a 9 can be used on a long distance service then so be it. Why do u think people travelling between Cornwall and London are so unimportant compared with your Cotswold commuters?

But there's nowhere to stable the 9 car in Cornwall, that's been said many times on here

 

[SWRtrain_fan]

Out of interest, are the XX:27 departures from Newbury to Paddington provided by 387s or IETs?

 

[cactustwirly]

Out of interest, are the XX:27 departures from Newbury to Paddington provided by 387s or IETs?

Both, the ones from Exeter/Paignton are IET, but the ones that start at Newbury are 387

 

[SWRtrain_fan]

Both, the ones from Exeter/Paignton are IET, but the ones that start at Newbury are 387

Ah ok thanks.

 

[berneyarms]

I sampled the new GWR timetable today travelling on the 0954 from Truro to Exeter and 1414 back.
My train to Exeter ran to time and the Train Manager even came on the PA at Plymouth to explain why we were waiting for 10mins. The Penzance portion was full and even though a lot got out at Plymouth they were replaced by people who could have travelled in the portion starting empty there. Are waiting passengers encouraged to go to the front portion?
The seat reservation system was not working but seats on the Cornish portion had paper reservations. The Plymouth portion did not and there was an apology for this. It’s a persistent problem which has been with us ever since the introduction of the IETs. Shouldn’t this have been sorted by now?
I observed movements at St Davids for an hour and was impressed that all seemed to be well except for some late running as a consequence of problems between Paddington and Reading earlier in the day. This was good for the first weekday of the new timetable.
My return train - 1204 from Paddington, 1414 from Exeter - was seven minutes late. It had been on time from Paddington and the delay appears to have been incurred on the Berks and Hants. This was a very busy train but I think most got seats between Exeter and Plymouth. However, the five coaches beyond Plymouth were ‘full and standing’. I really wonder how all the Penzance trains will cope with just five coaches. I note that the 1604 from Paddington was five coaches throughout today. That must have been a nightmare. My train lost time and was 17mins late in Truro. I fear that there will not be enough capacity on Paddington trains through Cornwall and too much on the four coach HST ‘locals’.
I thought that GWR did well today compared with some other TOCs. The capacity issues west of Plymouth on Paddington trains will need to be addressed. Five coach trains at busy times will not cope.

It is also quite possible that many of the passengers joining at Plymouth were not aware of the new service to Penzance ahead of that train at 14:46 as it was the first day of operating.

With any new timetable, it takes a little time for the changes to bed in. It’s quite possible that loads will smooth out somewhat.

 

[Thunderer]

Making the peak Banbury diagram 5 cars will absolutely not happen, you’d just be swapping one overcrowding issue for another!?!

Spot on! The problem stems back to the GWR fleet size. Too many 5 car trains and not enough 9 car trains. The ECML IEP order seems more balanced with the majority of its long distance services being 9 car, the DFT got the fleet configuration woefully wrong for GWR. 5 car train on the 08:22 Swansea-Paddington today, rediculous! I avoid using GWR as much as possible now as I find the 800/802 experience a pain in the arse if you are travelking 1st Class and you get a ten car train, you never seem to know where 1st class is goung to be or what section has seats (as you have to pick a half as you can't walk through the train) then if your in the composite coach, the 1st class experience is ruined at every station by masses of people getting on in the wrong place and trooping through the 1st class portion - its no pleasure travelling anymore on these awful trains!

 

[jimm]

Jimm as other posters have alluded to I have been proved correct on my fears that portion working won't work in Cornwall on all trains. The only solution will be some 9 cars will be needed for certain west country trains. If that means a Banbury has to become a 5 so a 9 can be used on a long distance service then so be it. Why do u think people travelling between Cornwall and London are so unimportant compared with your Cotswold commuters?

That was one train on one day - and, like the rest of us, you know no more than what was posted above. We weren't told where exactly it emptied out in Cornwall. Nor do we have any information about the loads on the trains before or after it out of Plymouth.

One might have thought that even you could see that key peak trains for Oxford - because that is what they are, they just do Banbury as there is marginal time in the diagrams that can be put to productive use as opposed to sitting in a siding at Oxford - might just need to be high-capacity trains, but apparently not. And the not-exactly-high-capacity four-car XC trains could do with a bit of help to shift commuters from Banbury into Oxford and Reading slap bang in the middle of the morning peak period.

Not that this comes as a surprise when you have spent years claiming that all kinds of places on the GWR HSS network have no need of high-capacity trains at just about any time of the day*, unlike Cornwall, with its staggering number of rail passengers each year...

*Please don't come back and go 'oh but I've said the peak trains in poxy commuterland should be big trains' when you have just said above that an 18.28 departure from London should give up a nine-car set for the sake of Cornwall.

If you want to convince anyone about the rightness of your cause you need to come up with something better than this kind of thing - or the endless claims about non-existent nine-car trains to the Cotswolds and Cheltenham outside the peaks.

Such as information about the spread of loadings west of Plymouth all day on every service over an extended period, as opposed to endless variations on 'someone says that train was really busy that day, so that means that all London-Cornwall trains need nine coaches all the time'.

 

[Dr Day]

As an aside, was good to see Network Rail alongside GWR staff out and about on stations yesterday, getting in many cases a rare opportunity to have direct contact with passengers.

 

[FGW_DID]

Spot on! The problem stems back to the GWR fleet size. Too many 5 car trains and not enough 9 car trains. The ECML IEP order seems more balanced with the majority of its long distance services being 9 car, the DFT got the fleet configuration woefully wrong for GWR. 5 car train on the 08:22 Swansea-Paddington today, rediculous! I avoid using GWR as much as possible now as I find the 800/802 experience a pain in the arse if you are travelking 1st Class and you get a ten car train, you never seem to know where 1st class is goung to be or what section has seats (as you have to pick a half as you can't walk through the train) then if your in the composite coach, the 1st class experience is ruined at every station by masses of people getting on in the wrong place and trooping through the 1st class portion - its no pleasure travelling anymore on these awful trains!

1L12 07.23 Carmarthen- Paddington (08.22 Swansea) 5 car vice the booked 10 from Swansea due to a train fault.
Obviously if it was just a single 9 car then that train fault may have led to a cancellation!
5 car not ideal but way better than 0 car!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Or a train leaving Paddington heading to Oxford and Banbury at 18.28?

I'm sorry to have to contradict you there, but based on my experience of the 18:28 yesterday, it was quite quiet in standard and first class throughout the train. At least, as far as Oxford it was. Based on the numbers of people boarding vs alighting at Oxford it was almost completely empty to Banbury.

Disruptionto other services may have affected that a little and obviously it's a new service, but even as a potential beneficiary of that service being a 9-car, I have to admit it seems like total overkill in terms of provision. Perhaps not if it were timed an hour earlier - but it's not.

Can't comment on the morning service as I didn't take that.

 

[Mag_seven]

Too many 5 car trains and not enough 9 car trains.

I think that sums up the situation to a tee!

 

[Goldfish62]

1L12 07.23 Carmarthen- Paddington (08.22 Swansea) 5 car vice the booked 10 from Swansea due to a train fault.
Obviously if it was just a single 9 car then that train fault may have led to a cancellation!
5 car not ideal but way better than 0 car!

The theory that having a train consisting of more than one unit mitigated the chance of faults was debunked by Roger Ford when discussing Class 700 reliability a couple of years ago. Basically, in this era of software controlled trains, two units = double the chance of failure.