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GWR Delay Compensation dispute

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cactustwirly

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So on the 5th November some family members were delayed by an hour travelling from Reading to Worcester, their train the 1053 Reading - Hereford, was cancelled due to a train fault.

GWR originally agreed to pay the full £21.45 back (travelling on advance 1st singles)
They've now incorrectly cancelled the compensation, saying that it was a LTV service and only 50% is due, paying out £10.73

How should I dispute this, does anyone have anything that proves it's a HSS service?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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So on the 5th November some family members were delayed by an hour travelling from Reading to Worcester, their train the 1053 Reading - Hereford, was cancelled due to a train fault.

GWR originally agreed to pay the full £21.45 back (travelling on advance 1st singles)
They've now incorrectly cancelled the compensation, saying that it was a LTV service and only 50% is due, paying out £10.73

How should I dispute this, does anyone have anything that proves it's a HSS service?
The 10:53 to Hereford on that date was timed as being a HST125 load, so the train would have been scheduled to be operated by either an HST or an IEP unit (although, in a limited number of cases, Class 165/6s are subbed in to prevent cancellation). Ex-First Great Western Link services are scheduled to use Class 165/6 units, just the same as they would be have been back when it was FGWL.

I would respond back to them (in writing preferably), explaining that services to Hereford are not, and never were, (ex-)FGWL services and thus the FGW compensation scheme applies.

If they still deny the claim (which would be pretty incredible), simply send a Letter Before Claim. I'm happy to help draft this if necessary.
 

cactustwirly

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The 10:53 to Hereford on that date was timed as being a HST125 load, so the train would have been scheduled to be operated by either an HST or an IEP unit (although, in a limited number of cases, Class 165/6s are subbed in to prevent cancellation). Ex-First Great Western Link services are scheduled to use Class 165/6 units, just the same as they would be have been back when it was FGWL.

I would respond back to them (in writing preferably), explaining that services to Hereford are not, and never were, (ex-)FGWL services and thus the FGW compensation scheme applies.

If they still deny the claim (which would be pretty incredible), simply send a Letter Before Claim. I'm happy to help draft this if necessary.

I emailed back, suggesting that LTV compensation doesn't apply beyond Oxford, and as Worcester is over an hour away from Oxford then HSS compensation should apply!
 

bb21

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The classification will depend on the service group code, which if you can wait till Monday I can have a look for you for a definitive answer.

What RTT says for timing load matters zilch.
 

cactustwirly

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The classification will depend on the service group code, which if you can wait till Monday I can have a look for you for a definitive answer.

What RTT says for timing load matters zilch.

Should be HSS, the Hereford services were always HSTs, and the Herefords were operated by FGW IC pre 2006.
 

superalbs

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What a stupid compensation scheme.

Why on earth would it be based on which train company operated the service twelve years ago, absolutely absurd.
 

bb21

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What a stupid compensation scheme.

Why on earth would it be based on which train company operated the service twelve years ago, absolutely absurd.
You'd have to ask DfT that.

They had various opportunities to resolve this over the years.
 

SickyNicky

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Should be HSS, the Hereford services were always HSTs, and the Herefords were operated by FGW IC pre 2006.

As a resident of Herefordshire and a frequent user of that service (and a frequent claimer of compensation), I have never experienced an issue in getting full compensation based on the HSS scheme. I have never even considered that the LTV scheme might apply, and it never has.

Even in BR days, the Herefords were operated by InterCity. And they were much more comfortable than the new crop of trains. (but let's not go there...)
 

cactustwirly

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As a resident of Herefordshire and a frequent user of that service (and a frequent claimer of compensation), I have never experienced an issue in getting full compensation based on the HSS scheme. I have never even considered that the LTV scheme might apply, and it never has.

Even in BR days, the Herefords were operated by InterCity. And they were much more comfortable than the new crop of trains. (but let's not go there...)

I imagine that it's GWRs outsourced customer services being incompetent, or more likely they're trying to get out of paying the full amount.
I submitted 2 claims, as there were 2 sets of tickets, both claims had their compensation reduced.
 

bnm

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You'd have to ask DfT that.

They had various opportunities to resolve this over the years.

And it was resolved in the March 2015 franchise agreement. That agreement came into affect in September 2015 and it said that Delay Repay should be introduced within 12 months of the start of that agreement.

GWR first lobbied hard to have the language in the agreement woolly enough to prevent introduction in the timescale set out, and have lobbied hard and successfully to delay the introduction for well over 2 years. No doubt arguing that it would affect their finances and blaming everyone but themselves for passenger journey delays. Over 40% of all GWR delays are entirely their fault.

Only now have they finally agreed to Delay Repay introduction. Expected 'early next year' according to staff briefings. But this is GWR, past masters at sticking two fingers up to customers, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they plead poverty again to the DfT and negotiate a further delay.
 

island

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Season ticket holders would be unhappy. They get a lot more from 10% off renewals.
 

evethom

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I emailed back, suggesting that LTV compensation doesn't apply beyond Oxford, and as Worcester is over an hour away from Oxford then HSS compensation should apply!
I am in the same position. I was told by email that I would receive 100% compensation for an overnight delay on the same line, following cancellation of the 22:53 on 17th January, from Pershore to Paddington, but then a week later I received a second email saying that they had made a mistake and it should only be 50% because it was on the LTV route and was not a high speed service.

However, I believe that the train was an HST125 that left Hereford at 21:51 and was cancelled at Worcester Shrub Hill. I queried this with GWR, but they are refusing to budge.

Is this something that the Ombudsman would be able to help with? I’d be grateful for any advice. Thank you.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I am in the same position. I was told by email that I would receive 100% compensation for an overnight delay on the same line, following cancellation of the 22:53 on 17th January, from Pershore to Paddington, but then a week later I received a second email saying that they had made a mistake and it should only be 50% because it was on the LTV route and was not a high speed service.

However, I believe that the train was an HST125 that left Hereford at 21:51 and was cancelled at Worcester Shrub Hill. I queried this with GWR, but they are refusing to budge.

Is this something that the Ombudsman would be able to help with? I’d be grateful for any advice. Thank you.
Absolutely - it's utterly ridiculous and frankly petty that they are trying to get out of compensation for this kind of thing. Escalate it further, and if you receive a letter/email of deadlock, or 40 working days have elapsed from when you first raised the matter, you can take it to the Ombudsman.
 

bb21

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I am in the same position. I was told by email that I would receive 100% compensation for an overnight delay on the same line, following cancellation of the 22:53 on 17th January, from Pershore to Paddington, but then a week later I received a second email saying that they had made a mistake and it should only be 50% because it was on the LTV route and was not a high speed service.

However, I believe that the train was an HST125 that left Hereford at 21:51 and was cancelled at Worcester Shrub Hill. I queried this with GWR, but they are refusing to budge.

Is this something that the Ombudsman would be able to help with? I’d be grateful for any advice. Thank you.

The Ombudsman can help you, however it should be noted that the Ombudsman can only rule on a contractual basis, and the flow will have been defined at privatisation as to which service group it fell into, regardless of booked traction. While it may not be immediately obvious to the customer, and multi-operator routes are always a tricky one, the definition is explicit, and is available to view by the general public I imagine either through the release of redacted versions of the original franchise agreements, or an FoI request to the DfT.

What the Ombudsman cannot rule on is what anyone thinks is morally right, or intended, unlike some other similar services. I would imagine GWR would be able to supply the Ombudsman with relevant evidence in support of their claims, so the Ombudsman may or may not rule in favour of your claim depending on what evidence GWR can supply them with.

If you would like to check the details out for yourself, an FoI to the DfT may be the best way forward.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The Ombudsman can help you, however it should be noted that the Ombudsman can only rule on a contractual basis, and the flow will have been defined at privatisation as to which service group it fell into, regardless of booked traction. While it may not be immediately obvious to the customer, and multi-operator routes are always a tricky one, the definition is explicit, and is available to view by the general public I imagine either through the release of redacted versions of the original franchise agreements, or an FoI request to the DfT.

What the Ombudsman cannot rule on is what anyone thinks is morally right, or intended, unlike some other similar services. I would imagine GWR would be able to supply the Ombudsman with relevant evidence in support of their claims, so the Ombudsman may or may not rule in favour of your claim depending on what evidence GWR can supply them with.

If you would like to check the details out for yourself, an FoI to the DfT may be the best way forward.
GWR's delay compensation policy, as set out in their Passenger's Charter, refers to 'journeys on (former) First Great Western services' and 'journeys on (former) First Great Western Link services'. So it's clear that it's not about the route of travel (otherwise it would say 'journeys on (former) First Great Western routes', for instance), but about which TOC would have operated the service. On a line where the services are a bit of a grey area, such as the Oxford-Worcester line, that's not as easy as it might be, for instance, for London-Reading.

The former flow owner, though, is not something that bears any relation to what compensation scheme is applicable.
 

bb21

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GWR's delay compensation policy, as set out in their Passenger's Charter, refers to 'journeys on (former) First Great Western services' and 'journeys on (former) First Great Western Link services'. So it's clear that it's not about the route of travel (otherwise it would say 'journeys on (former) First Great Western routes', for instance), but about which TOC would have operated the service. On a line where the services are a bit of a grey area, such as the Oxford-Worcester line, that's not as easy as it might be, for instance, for London-Reading.

The former flow owner, though, is not something that bears any relation to what compensation scheme is applicable.
I disagree but I am not going to go around in circles on this subject. We have been through this numerous times.

I have explained how the Ombudsman works, and how these schemes work from a contractual basis to the best of my understanding, so am sure they will make a suitable ruling taking that, and the representation from both GWR and the customer, into account.
 

mallard

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If GWR don't make the list of which services are HSS and which are LTV publicly available (and "potentially available from the DfT under an FOI request" is definitely not publicly available) how on earth can it form any part of the contract with the customer?

Keeping such material information secret is simply not compatible with the UK's (or any reasonably well-developed nation's) contract law. In my personal and non-legally-trained subjective opinion, this could potentially be a criminal offence under Section 3 of the Fraud Act 2006. It's a shame that there is no effective enforcement of such laws in the rail industry.
 

Clip

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If GWR don't make the list of which services are HSS and which are LTV publicly available (and "potentially available from the DfT under an FOI request" is definitely not publicly available) how on earth can it form any part of the contract with the customer?

I believe they are available and are on the GWR website.
 

evethom

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Thank you all for the advice you have provided. I can’t find anything on the GWR website.

After googling, I have found a map which shows that both First Great Western and First Great Western Link services operated between Paddington and Hereford (please see image). I’m therefore struggling to see how they could differentiate between the two former services, apart from saying that if it’s a high speed train it must be former FGW, not FGWL? Is this correct or have I got it wrong?
 

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ForTheLoveOf

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Thank you all for the advice you have provided. I can’t find anything on the GWR website.

After googling, I have found a map which shows that both First Great Western and First Great Western Link services operated between Paddington and Hereford (please see image). I’m therefore struggling to see how they could differentiate between the two former services, apart from saying that if it’s a high speed train it must be former FGW, not FGWL? Is this correct or have I got it wrong?
That's precisely what I've been saying - if it's an HST, then it's a former FGW service. After all, FGWL didn't operate HSTs!

If nothing else - if the definition of what FGW is and what FGWL is, is deemed to be unclear, then Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 dictates that the most favourable meaning for the consumer - i.e. that it's a former FGW service - applies. In other words, anything ambiguous is interpreted in the consumer's favour. So all this confusion is, at the end of the day, only detrimental to GWR and not to you!
 

najaB

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That's precisely what I've been saying - if it's an HST, then it's a former FGW service. After all, FGWL didn't operate HSTs!
I don't think it's as simple as that - while not a common occurrence, a HST could substitute for a Turbo or vice versa. It more depends on what diagram the service forms a part of, and the booked rather than actual traction type.
 

bb21

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I don't think we will ever have consensus on this matter on this forum, as the interpretation of what can be legitimately contractual in these cases simply vary too much between different people on this forum, ranging from purely literal interpretation to very little literal interpretation.

Who is right legally speaking I don't really know but again I can only rely on the outcome of any legal case there may be. As things stand, I can only place my faith in the Ombudsman, if it comes to that eventually, who so far are doing a decent job in my experience from the cases I have seen, but again that organisation is loudly criticised on this forum amongst some, so I am not sure even their ruling would make everyone happy. Some on this forum will have their own interpretation of relevant legislation.

The good thing is (finally) GWR will be going over to Delay Repay shortly (with a lot of background work being done on it atm) so this argument will rest once and for all and I can't say it will be coming one day too soon.
 

mallard

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I don't think we will ever have consensus on this matter on this forum, as the interpretation of what can be legitimately contractual in these cases simply vary too much between different people on this forum, ranging from purely literal interpretation to very little literal interpretation.

I'm sorry, but there is no way that information that is not available to the customer can ever form part of their contractual relationship with a vendor. That's not "interpretation", that's a basic legal principle. You cannot agree to a contract that you are not able to view in its entirety (including any supporting documents referred to). Since the contract (of which the NRCoT forms a part and refers to GWR's Passenger's Charter, making it most definitely "legitimately contractual") makes reference to a difference in compensation levels between different groups of services, but no complete definition of those groups is available to the customer, there is clearly missing information. Such things are "undefined terms" in legal language and are usually matters for courts to decide. There's no "interpretation" here. Simply facts. I don't know (although I can speculate... I think it unlikely that they'd rule in First GWR's favour) how a court would rule in a case like this, but at least court rulings are public, unlike the Rail Ombudsman, which seems to be continuing the long tradition of unnecessary and customer-hostile secrecy in the rail industry.

The fact that you're trying to frame this as a difference of opinion (and using language like "very little literal interpretation" to denigrate your opponents' views) very much seems like an attempt to muddy the waters.

I can only place my faith in the Ombudsman, if it comes to that eventually, who so far are doing a decent job in my experience from the cases I have seen

As the Ombudsman does not publish details of the cases they deal with, you clearly have insider knowledge.

that organisation is loudly criticised on this forum amongst some

Considering that the Ombudsman operates in secret and the rail industry has a long history of treating their customers with abject contempt, it will obviously take some time for their effectiveness (or not) to be felt. It's only natural for people to expect that things will continue "business as usual" until evidence of change is presented. If you've seen such secret evidence, that's great, but you've got to accept that those not privy to such evidence cannot simply take your word for it.

with a lot of background work being done on it atm

Since you clearly have insider knowledge about this matter, I get something of an impression that you have a vested interest in this matter. In the interest of ethics, I would personally suggest that you either refrain from entering discussions which potentially cause a conflict between the interests of passengers and your own interests, or that you at least declare such interests.
 

najaB

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I'm sorry, but there is no way that information that is not available to the customer can ever form part of their contractual relationship with a vendor.
But is it not available to the customer? It seems to me that it should be pretty simple to work out if a given service "used" to be a FGW or FGWL serviced based on the stopping pattern. Failing that, a simple request to GWR "Is <x train> classed as a FGW or FGWL service?" would provide clarity.
 

bb21

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I'm sorry, but there is no way that information that is not available to the customer can ever form part of their contractual relationship with a vendor. That's not "interpretation", that's a basic legal principle. You cannot agree to a contract that you are not able to view in its entirety (including any supporting documents referred to). Since the contract (of which the NRCoT forms a part and refers to GWR's Passenger's Charter, making it most definitely "legitimately contractual") makes reference to a difference in compensation levels between different groups of services, but no complete definition of those groups is available to the customer, there is clearly missing information. Such things are "undefined terms" in legal language and are usually matters for courts to decide. There's no "interpretation" here. Simply facts. I don't know (although I can speculate... I think it unlikely that they'd rule in First GWR's favour) how a court would rule in a case like this, but at least court rulings are public, unlike the Rail Ombudsman, which seems to be continuing the long tradition of unnecessary and customer-hostile secrecy in the rail industry.

The fact that you're trying to frame this as a difference of opinion (and using language like "very little literal interpretation" to denigrate your opponents' views) very much seems like an attempt to muddy the waters.

That is pretty much incorrect. You can agree to a contract without having viewed every single word of the contract word for word. I am sure every single person is entitled to examine every single detail word for word prior to forming any contract, as long as they wished to do so. In the context of purchasing a railway ticket, this course of action is clearly silly to just about every single person on this planet, but no one is forced to enter into this contract.

Nothing is secretive about any parts of the contract. Compensation details are available to anyone requesting it, from either the relevant operator or the DfT, and must be made available if enquired about, such as at a ticket office.

There are only two issues I can think of which may impact on the legality of the compensation regime the customer entered into a contract for. The first one is whether it is an "unfair" term, given the fact that it is impractical for the customer to have to view details of the scheme word for word prior to purchasing the ticket each time, so a hidden unfair term would place the customer at a distinct disadvantage. The second is whether available details about the compensation scheme is "misleading". These two issues are all down to interpretation as far as I can see because there is no definitive proof to say otherwise. Some on the forum argue that the current arrangement is unenforceable and others disagree. It is also an important fact that most people do not make their decision on which service to purchase a travel ticket for on the basis of the compensation scheme available. In fact, the applicable compensation scheme plays a very small, almost negligible, part in the decision making process by any customer on the whole. Should a case proceed to court, I am sure all these aspects will be taken into account by the judge for a suitable ruling.

I am therefore not trying to muddy any waters. I just disagree with your assertions.

As the Ombudsman does not publish details of the cases they deal with, you clearly have insider knowledge.

Considering that the Ombudsman operates in secret and the rail industry has a long history of treating their customers with abject contempt, it will obviously take some time for their effectiveness (or not) to be felt. It's only natural for people to expect that things will continue "business as usual" until evidence of change is presented. If you've seen such secret evidence, that's great, but you've got to accept that those not privy to such evidence cannot simply take your word for it.

Since you clearly have insider knowledge about this matter, I get something of an impression that you have a vested interest in this matter. In the interest of ethics, I would personally suggest that you either refrain from entering discussions which potentially cause a conflict between the interests of passengers and your own interests, or that you at least declare such interests.
Insider knowledge does not equal vested interest, otherwise much of the discussion on this forum would be pointless. As I mentioned to you before, you are free to challenge any views people may have on this forum and entitled to any cynicism you may have, but equally you must expect to be challenged on your assertions and understand that other people may hold different views to yourself.

You are not required to agree with my view, nor do I expect everyone to agree with my arguments.
 

mallard

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It seems to me that it should be pretty simple to work out if a given service "used" to be a FGW or FGWL serviced based on the stopping pattern.

As this thread, and several before it, have shown, it is not possible for a customer to make that distinction based on publicly available information, particularly for the services that use the Oxford-Worcester-Hereford route.

Failing that, a simple request to GWR "Is <x train> classed as a FGW or FGWL service?

Can you do that before boarding the train? Will you get consistent answers from every staff member you ask? I've not tried personally, but given that staff training in the rail industry has often been shown to be "limited", I doubt it. I expect many of First GWR's staff probably wouldn't even understand the question, especially if they were hired after the two franchises were merged.

That is pretty much incorrect. You can agree to a contract without having viewed every single word of the contract word for word. I am sure every single person is entitled to examine every single detail word for word prior to forming any contract, as long as they wished to do so.

Of course you can choose not to read the entire contract, I never said otherwise. You seem to agree that every customer is entitled to view the full details of the contract, but seem to not grasp the inescapable fact that First GWR do not make the full details available. (If they do, please point me to them.) That's not legally acceptable.

Compensation details are available to anyone requesting it, from either the relevant operator or the DfT, and must be made available if enquired about, such as at a ticket office.

Where can I see the list of which parts of First GWR's compensation scheme apply to exactly which GWR services? I can't. I can read GWR's Passenger's Charter, both online and in printed form, but it refers to "Journeys on (former) First Great Western services", "Journeys on (former) First Great Western Link services" and "Journeys on (former) Wessex Trains services", without any definition of what these terms mean. They're "undefined terms".

There's also the argument that since the company now known as First GWR ran all their services under the name "First Great Western" without visible sub-brands for a time, all their services are, in fact, "(former) First Great Western services". The charter contains no definitions of these terms, so this interpretation is as valid as any.

Additionally, when buying a ticket from First GWR (i.e. entering into a contract for First GWR to provide a rail service in exchange for my money), it is First GWR who must make available (upon request at the time of entering into the contract) all documentation that forms part of that contract (which includes the NRCoT and the GWR Passenger's Charter). The DfT are a third party and have no such obligation.

There are only two issues I can think of which may impact on the legality of the compensation regime the customer entered into a contract for. The first one is whether it is an "unfair" term, given the fact that it is impractical for the customer to have to view details of the scheme word for word prior to purchasing the ticket each time, so a hidden unfair term would place the customer at a distinct disadvantage.

It's not just "impractical" for a customer to view the full details of the scheme. It's impossible. That information is not available to the public.

It is also an important fact that most people do not make their decision on which service to purchase a travel ticket for on the basis of the compensation scheme available. In fact, the applicable compensation scheme plays a very small, almost negligible, part in the decision making process by any customer on the whole.

That's irrelevant. In this case, the customer and the vendor have a disagreement over the interpretation of the undefined terms in the compensation scheme part of the contract. Since that part of the contract uses undefined terms, the contract is incomplete and the issue must be settled by agreement of both parties or, if necessary, a court hearing.

The purchase has already taken place. The disruption to service has already taken place. Therefore the compensation part of the contract comes into effect, but as it is incomplete, there is dispute.

I'm not personally arguing that the contract is "unfair" in the context of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (although others have brought up this possibility; personally, I don't think the lack of clarity on compensation "causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations" in the words of the Act), I'm arguing that the contract has missing information preventing an undisputed outcome.

Insider knowledge does not equal vested interest, otherwise much of the discussion on this forum would be pointless.

No, but trying to shut down the conversation by declaring (using the "authority" of a moderator account) "I don't think we will ever have consensus on this matter on this forum", when you appear to be the only person arguing that First GWR are "in the right" and appealing to non-public information which we're supposed to take as fact on your word does give the impression of a lack of impartiality. If you have no vested interest, surely you can state as such unambiguously?
 

island

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I do fear this is going round in circles.

It would be a lot simpler if GWR published a list of which services fell under which scheme, and simpler still when they sweep away this nonsensical system based on which division of First ran the service thirteen years ago.

However, bb21 is correct. If an individual cares so much as to enquire as to which scheme applies, they will be told. I did this on behalf of a colleague who was curious with regards to Didcot Parkway to Paddington (it is deemed to be former FGWL and Thames Valley for season ticket discounts). That does not however mean that GWR is obliged to publish this information in a format or on a location that anyone can access.

He is also correct in saying that the vast, vast majority of passengers could not care less what compensation terms apply to their train if it gets delayed, and fewer still will base their purchase decisions on same. Nonsensical assertions that GWR is in breach of the Fraud Act, the Consumer Rights Act, etc. do their makers’ credibility no favours.

I also would observe that bb21 has not, as accused, been using his moderator status to “gain an advantage” in this discussion, and I am sure that it will be another moderator or admin who will close the discussion for futility.
 

cactustwirly

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But is it not available to the customer? It seems to me that it should be pretty simple to work out if a given service "used" to be a FGW or FGWL serviced based on the stopping pattern. Failing that, a simple request to GWR "Is <x train> classed as a FGW or FGWL service?" would provide clarity.

Both the ex FGW and ex FGWL services have the same stopping pattern up the Cotswold line.
Anyway, since the line was redoubled a few years ago, the timetable was completely rewritten.
 

sheff1

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Sheffield
Nothing is secretive about any parts of the contract. Compensation details are available to anyone requesting it, from either the relevant operator or the DfT, and must be made available if enquired about, such as at a ticket office.

Next time I wish to purchase a ticket for travel on the Cotswold Line I will ask about the compensation arrangements at my local ticket office prior to purchase. I am certain that, far from "must be made available", they will either make something up (they are experts at this) or tell me that it is nothing to with them despite them being the seller of the ticket to which the contract applies.
 
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