GWR HST smashed windsceen at Dawlish

[zaax]

Having watched Storm Doris hit the Dawish line does someone need to die before something is done?

 

[Cowley]

Yep. Probably.

 

[NSEFAN]

Having watched Storm Doris hit the Dawish line does someone need to die before something is done?

Something is already done. Depending on the severity of the weather, trains are either run single line or stopped altogether.

It'd be more convenient for the operational railway however if the shore could be further out.

 

[PHILIPE]

Having watched Storm Doris hit the Dawish line does someone need to die before something is done?

I don't think the storm ever got a name. The storm was not as severs as expected so didn't qualify for a name, so Doris next time. The only problems are with XC Voyagers (thread below) and trains have been "washed" over years and perfectly safe.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=136465

 

[dk1]

Bit of an overreaction to say the very least this thread. it wasn't safe they wouldn't run. All TOCS & NR are scared of their own shadow these days anyway & what driver would agree to take it if it was? Only danger is to any muppet idiotic enough to walk the wall.

 

[fgwrich]

Bit of an overreaction to say the very least this thread. it wasn't safe they wouldn't run. All TOCS & NR are scared of their own shadow these days anyway & what driver would agree to take it if it was? Only danger is to any muppet idiotic enough to walk the wall.

Exactly this. It - and the stretch of Line near Ayr are safe to run on with the correct procedures in place. Yes the waves may look dramatic, but most of those are crashing into the sea wall, not the railway itself.

The biggest people likely to end up getting themselves killed, are those who not only choose to walk the sea wall while the seas are rough, but those who also decide to go for a swim in it - and yes, someone was seen doing just that yesterday.

 

[Cowley]

Exactly this. It - and the stretch of Line near Ayr are safe to run on with the correct procedures in place. Yes the waves may look dramatic, but most of those are crashing into the sea wall, not the railway itself.

The biggest people likely to end up getting themselves killed, are those who not only choose to walk the sea wall while the seas are rough, but those who also decide to go for a swim in it - and yes, someone was seen doing just that yesterday.

Swimming!? Blimey.
I'd agree with the above posts, NR know when it's getting to the point of dangerous, it does look impressive but really it's not even at the point of washing ballast away or causing damage, look back at old photos and you'll see it's happened for a long long time, photos from the BBC website.

 

[snowball]

There's already a thread about not-Doris here, also with Dawlish pictures:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141599

 

[PHILIPE]

There's already a thread about not-Doris here, also with Dawlish pictures:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141599

Strange. Same OP has started both threads, this and the link

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I don't think the storm ever got a name. The storm was not as severs as expected so didn't qualify for a name, so Doris next time.

Network Rail were using the hashtag #StormDoris on Twitter yesterday, and they weren't the only ones - so we can probably expect some confusion now!

I gather that the worst of the storm ran to the south and hit France instead?

 

[Busaholic]

Although the waves in themselves may not pose a threat to human life, there is always the possibility of very large stones, even rocks, travelling with some velocity towards a carriage window. It would be a brave person who states that one of those could not penetrate a window and do damage which could be life-threatening.

 

[theblackwatch]

Although the waves in themselves may not pose a threat to human life, there is always the possibility of very large stones, even rocks, travelling with some velocity towards a carriage window. It would be a brave person who states that one of those could not penetrate a window and do damage which could be life-threatening.

But the risk is probably far less than staying at home where your house could catch fire....

 

[Ash Bridge]

But the risk is probably far less than staying at home where your house could catch fire....

Indeed! Speaking of stones penetrating windows this is far more likely an occurrence whilst travelling on a bus through certain Greater Manchester council estates than it is on a HST with 2 layers of Armourplate glass to protect you.

 

[mickulty]

Given the height of the sea wall and the density of rocks I would have thought at the point where there's a risk of rocks being flung high enough to get onto the tracks you're more at risk from the train blowing over...

 

[Cowley]

I don't think I've ever heard of a rock smashing a window along there, has anyone else? Just curious.

 

[6Gman]

Having watched Storm Doris hit the Dawish line does someone need to die before something is done?

That "something" being what, exactly?

 

[Busaholic]

Given the height of the sea wall and the density of rocks I would have thought at the point where there's a risk of rocks being flung high enough to get onto the tracks you're more at risk from the train blowing over...

Were rocks and large stones not found on the track (or where it had been) in February 2014? I'm going to relate this to Penzance, because we get almost exactly the same storms as Dawlish does i.e. a gale-force southwesterly, sometimes combined with a Spring Tide. The two places that get all the photos in the papers and other media after the event are the sea wall and railway at Dawlish and on Cornwall's only promenade at Penzance. I've seen no evidence this time of widespread stones/rocks being strewn along Pz Promenade, but this was decidedly not the case in 2014 where large objects, including twisted railings, etc, had travelled over a wide pavement, wide cycle path, line of where cars normally parked and two lanes of road to land against the walls of the houses opposite. As the road had been closed off officially (for about five days) no vehicles suffered greatly I believe, although some that had been parked were write-offs. If the road had remained open, I am sure there would have been casualties.

 

[Busaholic]

That "something" being what, exactly?

I think the something being suggested is an alternative route to Plymouth and Cornwall via the existing Okehampton line plus some new build, some of which was already being seriously planned in Tavistock.

 

[Cowley]

Were rocks and large stones not found on the track (or where it had been) in February 2014? I'm going to relate this to Penzance, because we get almost exactly the same storms as Dawlish does i.e. a gale-force southwesterly, sometimes combined with a Spring Tide. The two places that get all the photos in the papers and other media after the event are the sea wall and railway at Dawlish and on Cornwall's only promenade at Penzance. I've seen no evidence this time of widespread stones/rocks being strewn along Pz Promenade, but this was decidedly not the case in 2014 where large objects, including twisted railings, etc, had travelled over a wide pavement, wide cycle path, line of where cars normally parked and two lanes of road to land against the walls of the houses opposite. As the road had been closed off officially (for about five days) no vehicles suffered greatly I believe, although some that had been parked were write-offs. If the road had remained open, I am sure there would have been casualties.

When I was very little we moved to Cornwall before moving to Devon and we went by train from Oxfordshire while all our furniture came down in a lorry, my dad had a job in Penzance to go to so off we went, it was 1977 or 78 I think and one of my abiding memories is of us traveling along the sea wall in a 125 with our cats meowing constantly in their baskets on the table as waves hit the wall and travelled over the top of the train and landed on the other side of us. All the people in the carriage kept gasping at the excitement of it all and I thought it was brilliant.
The storms and damage that we had in 2014 were exceptionally bad and like you say there were bits of railings and also bits of beach huts and slabs chucked all over the place.
A friend of mine who'd transferred down here around that time couldn't believe it and told me one day that a wave had hit him along the sea front at Dawlish in a 153 and took nearly 5mph off his progress. A few days later the railway was washed away and although he'd just learnt the route he didn't drive it again for weeks while it was repaired.

 

[mickulty]

Were rocks and large stones not found on the track (or where it had been) in February 2014?

There is a nice video of a couple of huge rocks on the tracks in this BBC article from the time: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26044323

However I'd venture that they were almost certainly knocked out the ex-wall, not catapulted over an intact wall.

Horizontal translation of dense objects happens relatively easily. Lifting dense objects through the movement of air and water does not.

 

[Phil.]

Were rocks and large stones not found on the track (or where it had been) in February 2014? I'm going to relate this to Penzance, because we get almost exactly the same storms as Dawlish does i.e. a gale-force southwesterly, sometimes combined with a Spring Tide. The two places that get all the photos in the papers and other media after the event are the sea wall and railway at Dawlish and on Cornwall's only promenade at Penzance. I've seen no evidence this time of widespread stones/rocks being strewn along Pz Promenade, but this was decidedly not the case in 2014 where large objects, including twisted railings, etc, had travelled over a wide pavement, wide cycle path, line of where cars normally parked and two lanes of road to land against the walls of the houses opposite. As the road had been closed off officially (for about five days) no vehicles suffered greatly I believe, although some that had been parked were write-offs. If the road had remained open, I am sure there would have been casualties.

Drove along the prom road this morning. Plenty of stones on the road.

 

[najaB]

Were rocks and large stones not found on the track (or where it had been) in February 2014?

The line would be closed long before the waves were intense enough to lift large stones/rocks onto the track.

 

[Woody]

Just heard from a friend who is travelling on the 17.03 Paddington to Penzance train this evening that it has had to be terminated at Newton Abbot after the drivers cab windscreen was smashed by a stone after the train was hit by a large wave at Dawlish. Surely this must raise some health and safety issues as to why this very exposed line remains open to trains that are too often being allowed to "run the gauntlet" there in severe weather especially when the nearby sea front road in Torquay is routinely closed in similar circumstances.
Incidentally Cross Country has now stopped its Voyagers at Exeter for three high tides on the run at Dawlish. (Last night/this morning and evening) and is likely to do the same for tomorrow mornings high tide. Whats the answer, or isnt there one and how long will it be before there is a very serious incident there?

 

[SWT_USER]

Just heard from a friend who is travelling on the 17.03 Paddington to Penzance train this evening that it has had to be terminated at Newton Abbot after the drivers cab windscreen was smashed by a stone after the train was hit by a large wave at Dawlish. Surely this must raise some health and safety issues as to why this very exposed line remains open to trains that are too often being allowed to "run the gauntlet" there in severe weather especially when the nearby sea front road in Torquay is routinely closed in similar circumstances.
Incidentally Cross Country has now stopped its Voyagers at Exeter for three high tides on the run at Dawlish. (Last night/this morning and evening) and is likely to do the same for tomorrow mornings high tide. Whats the answer, or isnt there one and how long will it be before there is a very serious incident there?

There was a fairly serious incident a couple of years ago when the sea wall collapsed...

 

[Darandio]

There was a fairly serious incident a couple of years ago when the sea wall collapsed...

Pretty certain the OP means a serious incident involving a train. No trains were harmed when the wall disappeared.

 

[dgl]

There isn't too much of a problem for most of the trains and incidents LME this seem to be very rare, already the have contingency plans that involve running trains only on the track furthest away from the sea.

The XC problem is specific to the voyager trains they use and nothing will really help with that.

Rerouting the track is a possibility but you sold then cut off a significant market for leisure visitors, the locals that use it for school/work and the cost would not be cheap.

It's really a problem with no real solution at the moment and not running trains is not a solution.

 

[yorksrob]

Whats the answer, or isnt there one

As it happens, we had a discussion about this very subject about three years ago. I think the one thing we all agreed was that Central Gmnt needed to put its hand in its pocket for a start.

 

[ilkestonian]

Given that the railway has been there for, what, a century and a half or so, and to my knowledge this is the first time a screen has been broken, I don't think the risk is excessively high.

As for Voyagers, their problem is poor design, or at least poor specification, not that the route is unsafe.

The nearest we got to a serious incident was when the line disappeared. I hope they have a plan to ensure trains stop before the line next disappears, but that apart, one stone in 150 years is probably lower risk than the risk of a stone hitting a screen in some inner city areas...

 

[Darandio]

Surely this must raise some health and safety issues as to why this very exposed line remains open to trains that are too often being allowed to "run the gauntlet"

170 years now it has been there and I don't see a catalogue of major incidents involving any trains.

A stone through the windscreen because of a wave is a freak moment. I'd argue that trains 'run the gauntlet' in far worse places every day with shopping trolleys, bricks, you name it being thrown from bridges. Should we close all those lines too?

*Looks like me and ilkestonian are on the same page.

 

[daikilo]

170 years now it has been there and I don't see a catalogue of major incidents involving any trains.

A stone through the windscreen because of a wave is a freak moment. I'd argue that trains 'run the gauntlet' in far worse places every day with shopping trolleys, bricks, you name it being thrown from bridges. Should we close all those lines too?

*Looks like me and ilkestonian are on the same page.

I have no details on this, but the OP said "smashed by", and not "through". I am guessing that the supposition that it was a stone is the observation of a star fracture on the outer pane.

Having seen the damage done to the sea-wall and trackbed last time, I fear there may be sea conditions where the job has to stop for an hour or two, or we just accept the risk. If the sea came through the wind-screen my view would be the first.