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Halton Curve

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mister-sparky

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Scribbles on a piece of paper/internet form isn't going to pay for it or increase line capacity or magic rolling stock from thin air. So until those 3 happens then there can be a billion signatures and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
 

Holly

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Not sure why it needs to be double-tracked either!
Because it is little, if any, more expensive than single track bidirectional, given the short distance involved.

And it opens the door to a new station with turnback between the junctions.
Of course it really need electrification Runcorn-Chester.
 

Tomnick

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Probably not - it was reversible at some point wasn't it, with single lead junctions at either end? If the locking's still there in the boxes at either end, it'll probably be relatively straightforward to reinstate those connections - whereas doubling would require more extensive resignalling.
 

cle

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How many trains per hour would use it?

I could see a maximum of 2tph from Liverpool to Chester and beyond (possibly one more local stopping service, and a more regional fast one?) - so 4tph across both directions.

In addition, 1-2 freights per hour maximum each way - so the curve might have 8 'users' per hour maximum. And I doubt as many as that.

That's certainly not too difficult with a short single section, and the right crossovers shortly afterwards.
 

ivanhoe

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Whilst I feel the scheme is desirable, too many years have passed now and the market for the line will also be getting a brand spanking new road bridge in the next 5 to 10 years. If there was available stock and more importantly a market for its use, I'm in!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Probably not - it was reversible at some point wasn't it, with single lead junctions at either end? If the locking's still there in the boxes at either end, it'll probably be relatively straightforward to reinstate those connections - whereas doubling would require more extensive resignalling.

The current connections with the single track only work in the northbound direction.
The crossovers in the southbound direction are missing at both Halton and Frodsham Jns.
I shouldn't think they could be reinstated using the existing interlocking.
It is all due to be swept away with the ROC plans.

It will be very expensive to reinstate a two-direction route, whether single or double, to modern standards.
A minimum of 5 new point-ends (7 if the curve is doubled between the junctions) would be required, with very slow speeds at both ends.

Incidentally there is renewal work currently in progress on the main line at the Frodsham end.
I couldn't tell if this was just main line work or whether the Up goods loop was being removed and the main line plain-lined.
 
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I signed it a few weeks ago. I believe that a bi-directional curve may be of use to Ineos in the near future for RDF deliveries to its power station.
 

Tomnick

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Can anyone confirm whether the single line ever was bi-directional? Having looked into it a bit more, I'm not convinced that there ever was provision for Up trains to run over the single line, but rather that rationalisation was simply a case of removing the Up line and connections at either end. If that's the case, I'd certainly agree that any existing redundant locking will be of little use for reinstating a single line!
 

Tomnick

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Thanks for that. Did it go straight from that (double track with a standard double junction at both ends) to the current arrangement (single line, signalled for one direction only), or was there an intervening stage where it was a bi-directional single line?
 
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Thanks for that. Did it go straight from that (double track with a standard double junction at both ends) to the current arrangement (single line, signalled for one direction only), or was there an intervening stage where it was a bi-directional single line?

I am pretty sure it went bi-directional on a single line.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I am pretty sure it went bi-directional on a single line.

Ah, that's what I said initially, but removed it as I thought I was incorrect - it became one way was when the crossovers were removed at either end and the track plainlined.
 
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Ah, that's what I said initially, but removed it as I thought I was incorrect - it became one way was when the crossovers were removed at either end and the track plainlined.

I remember as a kid getting loco hauled services from Helsby to Runcorn and back on a Saturday. Must have been North Wales to Liverpool services. I think DMU services also ran across the curve but struggle to remember going on these. I was only a little lad.
There is now a passenger demand for better access into Liverpool again.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Thanks for that. Did it go straight from that (double track with a standard double junction at both ends) to the current arrangement (single line, signalled for one direction only), or was there an intervening stage where it was a bi-directional single line?

Quail 1990 shows a simple double junction both ends.
There was also a trailing crossover at the Runcorn end.
I think the Up (southbound) line was simply removed with its connections at both ends (ie it was never bi-directional).
The Runcorn end was only finally rationalised around 2000 during WCRM work.
 

Signal Head

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Can anyone confirm whether the single line ever was bi-directional? Having looked into it a bit more, I'm not convinced that there ever was provision for Up trains to run over the single line, but rather that rationalisation was simply a case of removing the Up line and connections at either end. If that's the case, I'd certainly agree that any existing redundant locking will be of little use for reinstating a single line!

No, it didn't go through being a bi-directional single line. The Up line was just taken out of use. I think this may have been down to the condition of some of the S&C but it was so long ago I cannot remember for sure, it could equally have been the condition of the plain line through the section.

I think it was 'billed' as a temporary disconnection, full recoveries of the locking weren't done at the time, the points were secured and signals disconnected. I don't know whether the locking/wiring etc. has ever been formally recovered, but as you say that would be of little use for making the remaining line bi-directional, as the signalling is double line AB, so one half of each instrument was probably just covered up and its wiring disconnected.

I cannot be sure, but a faint bell is ringing about a subsequent proposal to implement token block working to make bi-di, but that would have required PW alterations at Frodsham Junction to get onto the right road coming from Halton. I would guess that the facing crossover at Halton has been plain-lined by now, too. Whatever the cause, if there ever was such a proposal, I'm fairly sure it's pretty much dead and buried by now.

I hear the Liverpool - Halton section is currently in the early planning stages for resignalling to get rid of the mechanical boxes, so it's unlikely that there'd be any inclination to carry out expensive alterations to the existing system.
 

frodshamfella

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Thanks for those who signed/supported. Better to be positive about the project, negativity will not help the cause in anyway.
 
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The Planner

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One of the common sense jobs that never seem to get anywhere due to beancounterism.
 

Tomnick

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No, it didn't go through being a bi-directional single line. The Up line was just taken out of use. I think this may have been down to the condition of some of the S&C but it was so long ago I cannot remember for sure, it could equally have been the condition of the plain line through the section......
Thanks for that, very informative. The junction signal on the Down at Frodsham Junction does look very close to the facing points - certainly not enough room for there to have ever been a crossover between the two. It probably would need quite a bit of signalling work then - not the end of the world if resignalling is imminent at the Halton end, I suppose.
 
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