Hands off our cheiftain!!

[ObservationCar]

Hi folks, a wee while back there was a thread that was talking about the Threat to the Highland Cheiftain, as you all probably know, it is an HST which runs daily between London Kings Cross and Inverness at 1200 and runs opp direction at 0755. With talk of new High Speed Trains being built, there is an axe hanging over the head of the Highland Cheiftain.

One of the local newspapers up here has set up a petition online, and it is gaining huge support.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/savethechieftain/

I don't like the thought of this forum being used for petition advertising. But i'm sure this is an issue that is close to everyones hearts, and I bet more than 50% have been on the Cheiftain before, and another 30% will travel on it at some point in your lives. So please sign it!!

The Cheiftain's for life not just for specials!!

Newspaper article http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/13278/Save_the_Highland_Chieftain.html
P.S - Oh aye! Petition closes on Tuesday ahead of the Governments Comprehensive spending review which is due on 20th of October

 

[yorkie]

It would not make sense to axe this service. It's always well used, and it always amazes me how many reservations I see that are for the entire journey, although I've never done it the whole way from London to Inverness, there are a significant number of people who do. And many who use it for all sorts of intermediate journeys.

 

[43167]

Crazy to get rid. Ive done the full journey once. But used it about 10 times to/from York to/from the North.

 

[Aictos]

I agree with Yorkie that it is a popular service although I wonder why Scotrail could not run it instead if they got the XC HSTs seeing as they do Inverness to Euston already as a sleeper.

I've done 2 trips on it, once from Peterborough to Inverness and lastly Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln.

 

[EltonRoad]

I think I'm right in saying this service was introduced by BR when HSTs first came along; it was one of those services that used HSTs in "marginal time" when they would otherwise be sitting idle during the off-peak.

But now it's become an established, well-recognised service and is the only daytime direct train from Inverness to London.

The few occasions I've seen it arrive in Inverness it's been packed; no different to seeing an HST arrive in King's Cross. Can't believe it can't pay its way.

I've added my name to the petition.

 

[gordonthemoron]

AFAIR the Highland chieftain replaced a Euston-Inverness service sometime in the 1980s

 

[Invincibles]

I am not sure about the need to keep the Chieftain I am afraid, it just seems like the sort of run that would be better given to Cross Country or Scotrail and then East Coast could be left to run the electric main line services between Glasgow/Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds and London.

It might not be a popular suggestion but could the number of people who do make the through journey to London fit on a super voyager?

How many people catch the Chieftain between stations that also have Scotrail services simply because it is the "fast" "intercity" one?

I understand people make the through journey but I think there are better uses for a HST.

 

[Zoe]

I understand people make the through journey but I think there are better uses for a HST.

Commuter services out of Paddington?

 

[LE Greys]

As I see it, the Chieftain (and the three Aberdeen-London expresses) are very well used and valued by the people who use them. Many of them would find changing at Waverley difficult, because they often carry lots of luggage. About 50% of the people on board (at least in my experience) stay on board at Waverley. It's not just Aberdeen (with it's students and oilfield workers) and Inverness (serving the Far North) either, but the string of communities all the way along the routes, the cities of Perth, Stirling and Dundee, holiday traffic to Aviemore, St Andrew's students going to Leuchars and even golfers going to Carnoustie via Arbroath would miss out. Keep the service, it's useful to people.

 

[tbtc]

How many people catch the Chieftain between stations that also have Scotrail services simply because it is the "fast" "intercity" one?

I don't know, but (as an exiled Fifer) there are a lot of people on the Aberdeen - Edinburgh line who'll specifically chose the East Coast HST to get to Edinburgh rather than a Turbostar. The same may apply on the Highland Main Line, although the Cheiftan's decent timings will help it too (first train out of Inverness at a reasonable hour, and a tea time trip home from Edinburgh).

The timings may be one thing that helps the Cheiftan. It leaves Edinburgh before many ECML services have arrived there, so the stock may not be required until it's late morning departure from Waverley. Similarly, it leaves Edinburgh at a time in the late afternoon when the stock isn't necessarily going to be required on a trip back to London.

 

[sprinterguy]

AFAIR the Highland chieftain replaced a Euston-Inverness service sometime in the 1980s

There was an overlap between the two services in fact: The Highland Cheiftain to Inverness from Kings Cross was introduced in May 1984, whilst "The Clansman", which was the name of the Euston-Inverness WCML service, travelled by way of Mossend yard until 1987, when it was diverted to run via Edinburgh and fizzled out a couple of years after that.

I don't believe there's any real threat to the Highland Cheiftain: All the talk about withdrawing ECML services north of Edinburgh is based purely on speculation drawn from the Forster IEP Report, which only SUGGESTS that through running north of Edinburgh could POTENTIALLY be curtailed as just one alternate option to IEP out of a few concerning north of Edinburgh workings.

However, I will be keeping a close eye on what is specified in the new East Coast franchise when it is relet, though I'm not holding my breath over any changes in this area. I will add my name to the petition though, as I think that if any threat to this service does arise then it is important that through running to Inverness is preserved, as the Highland capital deserves a direct train to London. The more regular interval, frequent and faster services that operate now than did even 30 years ago do mean that through running to more distant destinations is not as necessary as it once was, as good connections can be made into regional services, but in this instance the Cheiftain from London is a very useful asset for Inverness to have, that must surely help to keep the highland capital connected.

 

[David Dunning]

Just been for a walk , is todays northbound service in the hands of a EMT HST ? That was what went past in the usual time slot today .

 

[scotsman]

Just been for a walk , is todays northbound service in the hands of a EMT HST ? That was what went past in the usual time slot today .

No, it was a late running EC service. It worked 1E19 (1500 EDB-KGX) yesterday.


Re: The Chieftain

I'll be sad if it goes, I always manage to get dirt cheap Advance 1st tickets!

 

[route:oxford]

It would be a sad day if the "Highland Chieftan" were to be withdrawn and Inverness lose the direct service with London via the East Coast.

Although if the Welsh can have a Pendolino dragged into the Principality, there's no reason why a Pendolino or "225" cannot be dragged from Perth (the wires should reach there by the time the HSTs wear out) to Inverness.

If the campaigners were being careful in their considerations, they'd be demanding that the whole of the line from Inverness to Grangemouth and to the (in my mind) new underground HS1 station in Glasgow be upgraded to at least W12, if not GC gauge in order that the Far North can benefit from improved Freight connections and through running of HS Services, albeit not at HS north of Glasgow!

 

[38Cto15E]

I found the First class on the Northbound Chieftain fabulous, given the time of day there were very few business people and that made for a more relaxed atmosphere.

My return from Inverness to Edinburgh (then change) was in First on a First Scotrail 158, like Chalk and Cheese!

 

[me123]

I don't know, but (as an exiled Fifer) there are a lot of people on the Aberdeen - Edinburgh line who'll specifically chose the East Coast HST to get to Edinburgh rather than a Turbostar. The same may apply on the Highland Main Line, although the Cheiftan's decent timings will help it too (first train out of Inverness at a reasonable hour, and a tea time trip home from Edinburgh).

It also gives Scotrail a wee hand. Increases the service frequency up to Inverness, and they still have a turbostar/pair of 158s to go elsewhere on the network. Quite important given that the train runs during the rush hours up here.

Obviously, the Chieftain has wider benefits and it makes sense to retain the train. However, I would have thought it more cost effective to operate it (alongside the Aberdeen services) with Scotrail crew, rather than having people operating the relatively few services that do venture North of Edinburgh.

 

[tbtc]

I would have thought it more cost effective to operate it (alongside the Aberdeen services) with Scotrail crew, rather than having people operating the relatively few services that do venture North of Edinburgh.

I'd agree with that, for both XC and East Coast.

Maybe the same could also be said of XC beyond Bristol, using FGW crews. It must be expensive and complicated keeping rosters for a handful of journeys north of Edinburgh, especially in the event of staff illness etc.

 

[sprinterguy]

If Scotrail were to operate the service throughout, with their own trains, it would be extracting revenue from East Coast and introducing another operator to Kings Cross to complicate things further (Though of course Scotrail and Capital Connect are both First subsidiaries): The Cheiftain if I remember rightly is quite limited stop up the core ECML to Edinburgh, so it is reasonable to conclude that passengers travelling to the key destinations served would choose to travel by this train rather than a preceding/following East Coast electric service with more stops. Or alternatively, the revenue split between Scotrail and East Coast for operating a train on the ECML would be so small towards Scotrail as to offer little or no benefit to them operating from Kings Cross.

I'm agreeing with me123 in saying that the Aberdeen and Inverness trains should be crewed by Scotrail staff north of Edinburgh: Once East Coast loses it's Glasgow trains, there's going to be precious few staff rosters that take them beyond the Scottish capital.

The Sleepers are in a completely stand alone market that doesn’t compete with Virgin West Coasts’ daytime services, so are a bit of an exception to normal TOC competition. Although actually, in BR days were the sleepers actually in the Intercity West Coast sector as opposed to Scotrail, or is that just my memory getting confused?

 

[gordonthemoron]

The sleepers belonged to Inter City West Coast Sector. Scotrail only took them on because Virgin (or whoever) weren't interested.

Also, prior to ECML electrification, at least half of the scottish sleepers were nominally Inter City East Coast

 

[sprinterguy]

The sleepers belonged to Inter City West Coast Sector. Scotrail only took them on because Virgin (or whoever) weren't interested.

Also, prior to ECML electrification, at least half of the scottish sleepers were nominally Inter City East Coast

Ah, thanks very much for that, it's as I suspected then. I'm not surprised Virgin didn't take up the mantle of operating the Sleepers; not profitable enough. Having them with Scotrail under the privatised regime seems to make reasonable sense anyway, though of course the Lowland sleeper operates entirely over a route served by Virgin.

 

[route:oxford]

Ah, thanks very much for that, it's as I suspected then. I'm not surprised Virgin didn't take up the mantle of operating the Sleepers; not profitable enough. Having them with Scotrail under the privatised regime seems to make reasonable sense anyway, though of course the Lowland sleeper operates entirely over a route served by Virgin.

Their partner in "Virgin Rail" had experience of running the "Stagecoach Rail" Sleepers back in the early 90s too.

 

[sprinterguy]

Their partner in "Virgin Rail" had experience of running the "Stagecoach Rail" Sleepers back in the early 90s too.

Oh yeah, I'd completely forgotten about that little operation.

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest I think east coast will remain operating to Aberdeen and Inverness. Hull should really be more of a risk. In BR days Scotrail crews used to drive the HST. XC were driven by anyone spare. I don't think the Scottish Government let it go I mean Holyhead is still in West Coast franchise and it has been difficult to operate since the Virgin HSTs went.
The northern services have already had the Scottish gov intervene. The original eureka proposed all HST services stopping a more stations with only the 91s on fast services. Newark - Inverness anyone. Paths were unsuitable but strong objections were heard.

 

[scotsman]

Re Crews:

Inverness is Newcastle Lodge Link
Aberdeen is Edinburgh (and I believe Newcastle North Link) and their respective Lodge Link crews

Edinburgh and Glasgow are Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle North Link jobs.

(I think, feel free to correct)

 

[Pumbaa]

London crews can work as far as Edinburgh. Aberdeen is shared between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

 

[scotsman]

London crews can work as far as Edinburgh. Aberdeen is shared between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

Really? I'm only aware of London crews making it to NCL, as EDB is too long. Also, I've yet to meet a London crew at Edinburgh. I could me mistaken however.

 

[Pumbaa]

Really? I'm only aware of London crews making it to NCL, as EDB is too long. Also, I've yet to meet a London crew at Edinburgh. I could me mistaken however.

You are. One of the early morning turns involves working London - York - Edinburgh - then pax to Newcastle before heading home. Equally one of the Glasgow turns makes it as far as York in the evening, they then lodge in Newcastle and take the first one back in the morning.

 

[paul1609]

Personally I dont think the Inverness or Aberdeen services should be included in the East Coast franchise when its relet,
The paths and rolling stock should be offered to open access operators. Any subsidy required I imagine it would be quite a bit would be the reponsibility of the scottish parliament.

 

[Failed Unit]

Personally I dont think the Inverness or Aberdeen services should be included in the East Coast franchise when its relet,
The paths and rolling stock should be offered to open access operators. Any subsidy required I imagine it would be quite a bit would be the reponsibility of the scottish parliament.

That wouldn't bother me if the paths were safe. But whoever runs the east coast franchise would not be happy about losing paths nor sharing revenue at York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. The would get orcats of course and we have Grand Central again. On the same note why do assume it makes a loss north of Edinburgh. The sets are normally full from experience on arrival at Haymarket. They are not all on £10AP tickets either.

 

[silentone]

Only Catering crews go the full London - Edinburgh route. Drivers and guards change at Newcastle on most trips.

There seems to be a suggestion that XC takeover the running of Inverness & Aberdeen services which really is complete nonsense. For a start the talk of these services being withdrawn is because of the rolling stock being replaced. XC would be no exception and would also likely lose their HST's.

Transferring the running of the service to another operator makes no difference to the situation at all as this is not an issue with affordability of the running of the service to the operator but a matter of affordability of replacing the rolling stock.

To add to this story it has already been strongly hinted (in the last few days) that getting rid of these services is not on the cards as it's recognised as a very valuable service even if the IEP is partially or fully scrapped. It has also been strongly hinted that the current rolling stock will be heavily refurbished and new replacement power cars/locomotives will be a shorter-term option. At the moment there is a lot of work going on which suggest a heavy refurbishment is on the cards for the future.

I believe it could well become a situation for the future franchise holder to replace the rolling stock in a longer 15-20 year East Coast franchise.