Has the MML speed limit increased recently?

[RichmondCommu]

Is 125mph attainable between Wellingborough and Kettering anyway?

It would be if the DfT decided to introduce tilting trains on the MML. I really think they are missing a trick here, especially given the savings in journey times.

 

[Mark62]

The fastest train that's run between Sheffield and London was the Master Cutler 07.29 and it took 119 minutes. The last time I caught that train was 13 years ago. It managed the journey without any problems. So for all of the speed increases over the years the current DMU's that run still can't do it in less than two hours. I know the Cutler went down the Erewash but line speeds back then were relatively low down the valley. And i remember way back in the 1980s when the fully powered HST's did it non stop from London to Leicester in 64 mins. I do believe the drivers were better in those days and relied on their own skills and knowledge to hammer these routes rather thAn today's crop of drivers who have their computers to do all of the work. So for all of the money spent on the MML it's still slower now than 25 years ago.

 

[21C101]

The fastest train that's run between Sheffield and London was the Master Cutler 07.29 and it took 119 minutes. The last time I caught that train was 13 years ago. It managed the journey without any problems. So for all of the speed increases over the years the current DMU's that run still can't do it in less than two hours. I know the Cutler went down the Erewash but line speeds back then were relatively low down the valley. And i remember way back in the 1980s when the fully powered HST's did it non stop from London to Leicester in 64 mins. I do believe the drivers were better in those days and relied on their own skills and knowledge to hammer these routes rather thAn today's crop of drivers who have their computers to do all of the work. So for all of the money spent on the MML it's still slower now than 25 years ago.

Isn't the slowing down of London services thanks to Johnny Majors customer charter which saw 5 minutes added to all arrival times at terminals to avoid paying out for lateness?

Down Merlins do London to Leicester in either 61, 62 or 63 minutes now

 

[Class 170101]

The fastest train that's run between Sheffield and London was the Master Cutler 07.29 and it took 119 minutes. The last time I caught that train was 13 years ago. It managed the journey without any problems. So for all of the speed increases over the years the current DMU's that run still can't do it in less than two hours. I know the Cutler went down the Erewash but line speeds back then were relatively low down the valley. And i remember way back in the 1980s when the fully powered HST's did it non stop from London to Leicester in 64 mins. I do believe the drivers were better in those days and relied on their own skills and knowledge to hammer these routes rather thAn today's crop of drivers who have their computers to do all of the work. So for all of the money spent on the MML it's still slower now than 25 years ago.

Sorry but thats now rubbish
This train does it in 119 minutes calling at Leicester, Derby and Chesterfield
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C70459/2014/10/27/advanced.

The Master Cutler southbound is now 2hrs 4 mins and northbound is 2hrs 2 mins.

 

[notadriver]

The fastest train that's run between Sheffield and London was the Master Cutler 07.29 and it took 119 minutes. The last time I caught that train was 13 years ago. It managed the journey without any problems. So for all of the speed increases over the years the current DMU's that run still can't do it in less than two hours. I know the Cutler went down the Erewash but line speeds back then were relatively low down the valley. And i remember way back in the 1980s when the fully powered HST's did it non stop from London to Leicester in 64 mins. I do believe the drivers were better in those days and relied on their own skills and knowledge to hammer these routes rather thAn today's crop of drivers who have their computers to do all of the work. So for all of the money spent on the MML it's still slower now than 25 years ago.

How do computers do all the work for a driver ? Is there like an autopilot or something?

 

[21C101]

How do computers do all the work for a driver ? Is there like an autopilot or something?

no - I think he is referring to engine management systems which together with the extra power in modern diesels means driving one is more akin to driving an electric unit, whereas older ones needed more skill to keep to time.

 

[Tomnick]

The 'better' drivers back then weren't having to adher to very prescriptive - and restrictive - defensive driving policies either. Probably worth contemplating that before blaming today's drivers for slower journeys. As the nonsense about them relying on their computers - what on earth are you on about?

 

[21C101]

The 'better' drivers back then weren't having to adher to very prescriptive - and restrictive - defensive driving policies either. Probably worth contemplating that before blaming today's drivers for slower journeys. As the nonsense about them relying on their computers - what on earth are you on about?

Yes, in the old days they used to approach red signals with a similar stopping curve to the way they approach station stops.

Now they have to approach them like a zookeeper gingerly approaching a pit of rioting crocodiles.

 

[notadriver]

I bet a lot of 'better' drivers never made the transition to the modern age of the TPWS and OTMR installations. I bet many retired early or were forced out of the driving grade as they couldn't adapt.

 

[The Planner]

I think it is a general everything was better in the past sort of rant...

 

[Bald Rick]

Its virtually a given that Corby will go half hourly once electrified. So six per hour on the midland main line, not a massive difference

The "Flitwick Flyers" depart immediately after the pair of intercities (eg Intercities at xx55 and xx00 or xx.25 xx.30 with the "flyer" departing at xx.02 It has to make it to Bedford south junction before the xx.15 or xx.45 (which dosent run yet) catches it. 110mph capability would be quite useful expecially when there is slightly late running.

Can't see it changing as far as running to Bedford South. Possible they might go over at Flitwick but Leagrave unlikely as too much of a time penalty on the 40mph crossovers. They won't be going over at Radlett or Harpenden as they would get tangled up with the Luton or st Albans terminators (or a late running previous fast to St A and all stns to Bedford - the "flyers" frequently overtake those north of Luton).

365 to Peterborough, don't know where you have got that idea from. Certainly wont be 365. Not when they are going to be going 2 per hour to Horsham from then. There are obviously extra peak hour services to KX, which will be 365 or 377, but there is no reason why the Peterborough Horshams won't be the fasts with the slow line peak services terminating at KX, its too early to know.

Now if the peak hour Peterborough fasts were to be 110mph capable 387s then that would make more sense.

I'm getting it from the 2018 timetable, which I am involved in writing.

The Peterboro services formed of 700s going down the core will be 700s naturally. They will be slow line north of Woolmer Green. The only trains on the fasts north of Woolmer Green to Peterboro will be the peak extras to KX, formed of 365s.

The MML will be completely recast in May 2018. It I will not look like today's.

 

[21C101]

I'm getting it from the 2018 timetable, which I am involved in writing.

The Peterboro services formed of 700s going down the core will be 700s naturally. They will be slow line north of Woolmer Green. The only trains on the fasts north of Woolmer Green to Peterboro will be the peak extras to KX, formed of 365s.

The MML will be completely recast in May 2018. It I will not look like today's.

Thanks for that. It does seem a little short sighted to for GTR to keep a handful of 100mph 365s rather than use 110mph 387s for the Peterborough peak fasts. Especially as the Kings Lynn service will be 377 sister units according to publicity that I read recently, but ultimately the politicians decide who gets the stock these days.

Interesting that a total recast is coming, but I guess its still early days yet and I honestly cant see the majority of the Bedford peak hour superfasts crossing over before Flitwick, some will no doubt cross over at Leagrave and Harpenden as they do today.

I suppose its possible the stopping patterns might change (especially if more frequent St-P Corby service means a lot more peak EMT seat capacity from Luton and Bedford), although the Thameslink stopping patterns were reformed as recently as 2005 with the Blockade timetable. Prior to 2005 it was a mishmash with virtually no two peak hour Bedford trains having the same stopping pattern.


They/you will have to get it past the BCA as well By December 2018 I will be starting to get more concerned with pension calculations.

 

[Mark62]

Sorry but thats now rubbish
This train does it in 119 minutes calling at Leicester, Derby and Chesterfield
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C70459/2014/10/27/advanced.

The Master Cutler southbound is now 2hrs 4 mins and northbound is 2hrs 2 mins.

Check your timetables and the master cutler it in 119 minutes . I have very timetable dating back to 1976. The Paxmen HST used to murder to line when it was limited to 110 today they would crucify the times. Forget the meridians not in the same class as proper trains. I am old enough to remember when we had such trains. I still contend that drivers back then were better and didn't have to rely on computers. They knew the road and their locomotives. The timetable does not have any trains doing the journey today between Sheffield and London as fast as it was 20 years ago. If it does then please enlighten me as to which Train between Sheffield and London does it less than 2 hours

 

[The Planner]

Right, so the current drivers dont know the road and the computer does it all for them? I take it you have ignored the previous posts then?

 

[notadriver]

Right, so the current drivers dont know the road and the computer does it all for them? I take it you have ignored the previous posts then?

Yes - its easy. There's an autopilot thingy, just press the GO button and away. No knowledge needed whatsoever. (oops I went 100 years into the future) ... back to reality...

 

[Mark62]

The 'better' drivers back then weren't having to adher to very prescriptive - and restrictive - defensive driving policies either. Probably worth contemplating that before blaming today's drivers for slower journeys. As the nonsense about them relying on their computers - what on earth are you on about?

Drivers back then used to slaughter to routes. If you weren't around at that time then you simply don't know. And yes locks didn't drive themselves back then. Not saying they were better days but I know that the trains today for all their technology are slower.
Do you really think that today's drivers would have a clue what to do id they had 13 coaches on as the approached lickey incline. They wouldn't have a clue or know how to take a run at it. Why because their computer isn't programmed for such things. So they would grind to a halt and today we don't have any bakers

 

[455driver]

And I see restoration of the four track formation to Kettering will be done by 2017 with redoubling to Corby by 2016.

I remember someone claiming somewhere that putting the fourth track back would be impossible without vast costs because the formation is too narrow to meet current standards. Obviously they didn't understand what a derogation was or believed they were virtually impossible to get

You cant get derogations for everything!
When it was previously a 4 track mainline it was max 100mph (I think) but to run any higher (especially 125mph) there are a lot more rules that must be followed!

But hey I am sure you know a lot more about applying for derogations than I (not difficult really) or the planners/designers and anyone else who was involved in this project do! :roll:

 

[notadriver]

Drivers back then used to slaughter to routes. If you weren't around at that time then you simply don't know. And yes locks didn't drive themselves back then. Not saying they were better days but I know that the trains today for all their technology are slower.
Do you really think that today's drivers would have a clue what to do id they had 13 coaches on as the approached lickey incline. They wouldn't have a clue or know how to take a run at it. Why because their computer isn't programmed for such things. So they would grind to a halt and today we don't have any bakers

Can someone please please explain to me what on earth he is going on about? What is this computer business he keeps banging on about ?

 

[455driver]

I do believe the drivers were better in those days and relied on their own skills and knowledge to hammer these routes rather thAn today's crop of drivers who have their computers to do all of the work.

I do believe that you havent got a f+++++g clue what you are talking about.

So please oh great all knowing one, please can you state exactly what these computers I rely on do to make my job easier!
I cant wait for the answer, this id going to be hilarious!

As for

And yes locks didn't drive themselves back then

, I wasnt aware that they did now!
Edit-
Notadriver, I just read that bit as well!

 

[Monty]

So they would grind to a halt and today we don't have any bakers

Alas he also seems to think bakers no longer exist, I know they are not as common as they used to be, but i'm pretty sure the one in my local highstreet is still there.

 

[455driver]

Does anyone on here know how to drive a lock?
I have one on the shed door but every time I try and drive it I fall off!

 

[Tomnick]

Strange, it's only a couple of years since I was travelling on a 13-coach train approaching the Lickey incline. The newfangled driver chap seemed to cope with it well enough. There weren't any locks though - no wonder it's a long journey, if you've found yourself on a narrowboat by accident.

 

[RJ]

Drivers back then used to slaughter to routes. If you weren't around at that time then you simply don't know. And yes locks didn't drive themselves back then. Not saying they were better days but I know that the trains today for all their technology are slower.
Do you really think that today's drivers would have a clue what to do id they had 13 coaches on as the approached lickey incline. They wouldn't have a clue or know how to take a run at it. Why because their computer isn't programmed for such things. So they would grind to a halt and today we don't have any bakers

I'm sure whatever requisite knowledge drivers weren't bestowed with at birth, they obtain during training. I'm sure this is was as true 20 years ago as it is now.

 

[jon91]

What's all this gibber about 'slaughtering' routes? Has Dr Beeching rose from the grave, axe in hand or something of a similar spooky nature?

 

[Class 170101]

Many things have changed since the HSTs first entered service nearly 40 years ago.

1. Driving standards have changed, defensive driving and not chasing restrictive signals.
2. More congested railway
3. Safety standards have changed
4. OTMR at al. Speeding was possible without being caught. Now the OTMR tells on all, both good and bad. I think some have said Paddington to Reading used be done in just over 20 minutes, now it looks like just over 25 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure whatever requisite knowledge drivers weren't bestowed with at birth, they obtain during training. I'm sure this is was as true 20 years ago as it is now.

Though sadly whether the training is as thorough now as some claim it once was I do wonder. I would suggest their were instances back in the past were drivers used to just sign the route card and away they went and indeed in parts of the industry it may still go on today - need I remind readers what happened with the DCR driver a year or so back, at Stafford I think, and subsequent RAIB report on that SPAD.

 

[The Planner]

Would hardly compare DCR with a mainline passenger TOC or even any of the other FOCs to be fair!

 

[Class 170101]

Would hardly compare DCR with a mainline passenger TOC or even any of the other FOCs to be fair!

True but they have been caught, how many are out there to be caught in future? One would hope none but we can never be sure.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What's all this gibber about 'slaughtering' routes? Has Dr Beeching rose from the grave, axe in hand or something of a similar spooky nature?

It is Halloween tomorrow

 

[455driver]

I see trolly chops hasnt been back to impart his knowledge about computer controlled locomotives onto us!

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps his computer crashed?