Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Ediswan]

how much should you bung them? how do you start to calculate that?

13A chargers are 2.3 kW. So 2.3 x (their unit rate) x (hours on charge). A 10 hour charge would be around £3.50. Adjust to suit.

Edit: Chargers which use a 13A socket draw 10A.

 

[Harpers Tate]

An EV charging from a single phase AC (mains) supply will naturally want to draw about 30 amp and that will fry normal socket wiring or more likely pop fuses/breakers. So to do so you need a current limiter in the cable, to keep it below 13a. That's why they are "special". Many EVs come with them - colloquially referred to as "granny chargers". 10a is typical. So that's 2.5 kW. Or, in one hour you will draw 2.5kWh. One kWh is often referred to as a "unit". So to estimate how much you owe, take
their per-unit (kWh) tariff x 2.5 x {number of hours charging}. If you can't find out their tariff, then use 20p (which in many cases will be generous).

Or buy them lunch out and call it quits!

 

[DelW]

In terms of charging time from a domestic 13A socket, I get around 8 miles of added range per hour of charging for summer driving. In winter that probably drops to nearer 6 miles extra per hour (lights, heater, etc. draw on the battery as well, and battery performance is poorer in cold weather).

 

[Ken H]

In terms of charging time from a domestic 13A socket, I get around 8 miles of added range per hour of charging for summer driving. In winter that probably drops to nearer 6 miles extra per hour (lights, heater, etc. draw on the battery as well, and battery performance is poorer in cold weather).

so a 12 hr overnight charge on 13A will only half charge the battery. So over 130 miles trip from home to daughters, plus some tripping round locally where she lives, so battery 75% discharged. I dont think the 12 hr charge would get me home. Thats on to of the fact they have 5 vehicles* so getting near the house would be hard, so I would need trailing leads on the pavement. Their front garden is a car park.
Tis is exactly the journey I did on Tues/Weds this wee.

Hers, husbands, both kids have cars - need them to get to work, and a campervan.

Oh. I dont have anywhere near my house where I can park and charge a car.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s also worth checking what your local charging provision is, our town has 3 car parks, 2 short stay and a long stay (which I never use). I discovered my accident the long stay has some charging points, but not signposted.

But it varies by area, I previously lived in Kingston upon Thames and both ASDA stores there have had electric chargers for over a decade. However they were rarely used and never got expanded since they were installed (can’t comment on last 12 months since we moved away).

However a couple of people I know now have electric cars and have commented that they are great, and wished they did it earlier.

There are currently grants (£2500 towards cost of new car, dealer handles this) and contribution towards home charger instalation. I have heard Scotland is even more generous (but don’t know details). Sometimes manufacturers offer incentives as well, saw a Vauxhall advert offering 30000 hours (or possibly miles) of free electricity.

 

[DelW]

so a 12 hr overnight charge on 13A will only half charge the battery. So over 130 miles trip from home to daughters, plus some tripping round locally where she lives, so battery 75% discharged. I dont think the 12 hr charge would get me home. Thats on to of the fact they have 5 vehicles* so getting near the house would be hard, so I would need trailing leads on the pavement. Their front garden is a car park.
Tis is exactly the journey I did on Tues/Weds this wee.

Hers, husbands, both kids have cars - need them to get to work, and a campervan.

Oh. I dont have anywhere near my house where I can park and charge a car.

You're not an ideal candidate for an EV with current infrastructure . If we really do end up all electric in a decade or so, systems will need to be developed for people who don't have off-road parking.

My car is a PHEV with low-30s electric range, so even on 13A it charges in around 4 hours. I imagine most pure EV owners install a fast charger, but for me there's no need.

 

[Ken H]

You're not an ideal candidate for an EV with current infrastructure . If we really do end up all electric in a decade or so, systems will need to be developed for people who don't have off-road parking.

My car is a PHEV with low-30s electric range, so even on 13A it charges in around 4 hours. I imagine most pure EV owners install a fast charger, but for me there's no need.

no plans to change cars. the odd jolly and a few long trips a year and thats it. worked from home since I had appendicitis n 2018 and never went back!

 

[DelW]

no plans to change cars. the odd jolly and a few long trips a year and thats it. worked from home since I had appendicitis n 2018 and never went back!

I switched to PHEV when I retired - doing a lot fewer 200+ mile motorway runs (to which my previous high mileage diesel was well suited) and a lot more local trips (which its DPF* didn't like). So it works well for me, but of course, horses for courses, I can see that for many people it wouldn't.

*(To comply with forum rules - diesel particulate filter, which needs regular high temperature runs to burn out the clag it accumulates).

 

[AM9]

no plans to change cars. the odd jolly and a few long trips a year and thats it. worked from home since I had appendicitis n 2018 and never went back!

Looking at 2021 conditions, it probably suits you, but don't expect that to last much longer. As is often mentioned here, the impracticalities of applying duty to charging power from domestic supply will inevitably lead to some form of road charging. That charging will apply to all motor vehicles (because it will be based on road usage) but the fuel duty won't necessarily be removed at the same time because that in part is justified by the damage that IC engines inflict on the local and global environment. This and a number of other 'nudges' will be used to hasten the change to non-CO2 energy (along with banninng IC vehicles in city centres and eventually residential streets).
So once the basic infrastructure to support general use of EVs is there, hydrocarbon fuel sales will fall leading to a decline in it's general availability, i.e. service stations closed or converted to charging only, and IC engine use for private transport will become generally inviable over any distance.

 

[Bald Rick]

I heard this morning from another good friend who has taken the EV plunge, he’s awaiting delivery. He regularly does 100-300 miles day for business. The business he works for is going all electric on its company car fleet and is installing charges at all their locations. He doesn’t anticipate any problems.

 

[Ken H]

I heard this morning from another good friend who has taken the EV plunge, he’s awaiting delivery. He regularly does 100-300 miles day for business. The business he works for is going all electric on its company car fleet and is installing charges at all their locations. He doesn’t anticipate any problems.

Charging at work will be the game changer. But how will it be paid for?

 

[Bald Rick]

Charging at work will be the game changer. But how will it be paid for?

Well for company cars at company locations, that answer is fairly obvious.

 

[Harpers Tate]

over 130 miles trip from home to daughters, plus some tripping round locally where she lives, so battery 75% discharged. I dont think the 12 hr charge would get me home.

Location of home and daughters ??

 

[Aictos]

I've been looking up the Toyota Prius range however most models I've been looking at are between 2011 and 2014 with mileage around 100,000 to 200,000 miles however I'm not sure for a second hand one what would be a good buy?

Eg I've seen reviews that the battery alone is £1k to replace so not sure how long one is meant to last? Equally, does the battery only get charged when the petrol engine is running eg on motorway trips and how long does it take to charge up the battery?

 

[skyhigh]

I have an EV with approx 250 mile range. For context, I've driven 970 miles in the past 7 days using solely public charging infrastructure (I'm on holiday). I've not come close to running out of charge once, and I've had no issues finding available chargers on my travels across Northern Ireland, West/North Yorkshire, South London and Herfordshire. My parent's town now has 14 chargers dotted about the place, and it's now at the point where you can find a 22kW dual charging post practically in the middle of nowhere in Northern Ireland, so you shouldn't have many issues in busier places.

 

[Ken H]

Location of home and daughters ??

Yorkshire Dales (Me) and Nr Stratford upon Avon

 

[Harpers Tate]

@Ken H
Yorkshire Dales: AC public chargers located at Clapham, Austwick, Sainforth, Horton, Buckden, Kettlewell, Linton, Grassington, Coniston Cold, Malham, etc. DC (50kW) rapids at Settle, Skipton, Steetley, Silsden, Ilkley, Otley, etc.

Stratford upon Avon: AC at at least 11 locations; DC rapid at at least 5 locations.

Look at https://www.plugshare.com/ for details.

 

[The Ham]

Well for company cars at company locations, that answer is fairly obvious.

Even for personal use I suspect that a loophole will be allowed for some time, as travel emissions are a significant problem and whilst EV's only reduce whole life emissions by about 1/3 over ICE it's what's needed if we don't want travel to be over 40% (or even over 50%) of all emissions in (say) the next 10 years.

 

[Bald Rick]

whilst EV's only reduce whole life emissions by about 1/3 over ICE

What rate of gCO2e/kWh are you using?

 

[DelW]

I've been looking up the Toyota Prius range however most models I've been looking at are between 2011 and 2014 with mileage around 100,000 to 200,000 miles however I'm not sure for a second hand one what would be a good buy?

Eg I've seen reviews that the battery alone is £1k to replace so not sure how long one is meant to last? Equally, does the battery only get charged when the petrol engine is running eg on motorway trips and how long does it take to charge up the battery?

There have been various versions of the Prius including at least one plug-in model, but the ones you mention are almost certainly standard hybrids.

These charge their battery partly from energy recovered during regenerative braking, and partly from energy provided directly by the engine. In normal driving the engine is always running, other than possibly under braking or at very low speeds, and all the energy used comes from the petrol you put in.

The battery capacity is typically quite small, so it will only drive a short distance without the engine running. The electric motor on its own is used during low speed stop/start driving, though it may also assist the petrol engine for maximum acceleration.

(Caveat: the above is my general understanding, since although I've been a passenger in Priuses, I've never driven one).

 

[37424]

I have just ordered an EV. I don't see a big issue with range for me in any case the car accepts 100Kw chargers which shouldn't take long to charge anyway, I don't think there are many 100Kw chargers about yet but presumably that will change and even with a 50Kw its not that long.

The main issue for me is that I will be downsizing in the next couple of years and potentially if I move to a flat then I would probably not have a charger, and some public chargers are not that cheap unless you can find a slower charger within walking distance nearby which are sometimes free.

Then you do have the agro of getting a smart meter put in if you don't already have one to get the cheap overnight rate for EV's and getting the charger installed but overall I'm looking forward to it.

There have been various versions of the Prius including at least one plug-in model, but the ones you mention are almost certainly standard hybrids.

These charge their battery partly from energy recovered during regenerative braking, and partly from energy provided directly by the engine. In normal driving the engine is always running, other than possibly under braking or at very low speeds, and all the energy used comes from the petrol you put in.

The battery capacity is typically quite small, so it will only drive a short distance without the engine running. The electric motor on its own is used during low speed stop/start driving, though it may also assist the petrol engine for maximum acceleration.

(Caveat: the above is my general understanding, since although I've been a passenger in Priuses, I've never driven one).

The Self Charging Hybrids are essentially of course still a petrol car with better fuel economy and a petrol electric transmission.

I was talking to my ex boss in the fleet division of a large supermarket the other day and she thinks the supermarkets will be pulling out of Petrol/Diesel Sales within the next 5 years and once that happens, that alone may push fuel prices up, and they moment they need the fuel stations to power their own delivery vans but once they move those to electric the fuel stations will go.

 

[MattA7]

Isn’t there an issue regarding the electricity generated to charge the car. It’s all very well having a zero emissions car however at the moment most of our energy comes from gas fired power stations which are not carbon neutral.

 

[DelW]

The Self Charging Hybrids are essentially of course still a petrol car with better fuel economy and a petrol electric transmission.

Most, though not all, still have a traditional mechanical transmission. There were models where the petrol engine only powered the wheels via the generator and electric motor(s) but I'm not sure if there are any still available now.

Isn’t there an issue regarding the electricity generated to charge the car. It’s all very well having a zero emissions car however at the moment most of our energy comes from gas fired power stations which are not carbon neutral.

19% renewables in July, according to National Grid.
11% wind
7% solar
1% hydro

Plus 15% nuclear which is at least low-carbon once the plant has been built.

A petrol car is 100% fossil fuel.

 

[Bald Rick]

however at the moment most of our energy comes from gas fired power stations

That’s incorrect. In the last year 38% of GB electricity was generated by gas fired power stations. 1.6% came from coal fired power stations.

The rest was all from low carbon* sources and direct imports (most of which are from France and Belgium, and essentially low carbon).

With GB emissions due to electricity generation at 182gCO2e/kWh, and a typical EV doing 6km per KWh, the average EV in use year caused about 30g CO2e/kWh. The average for ICE is about 4 times that.

*opinions vary as to whether biomass is low carbon.

 

[The Ham]

What rate of gCO2e/kWh are you using?

I wasn't, just repeating what was cited in the study within this link:

Electric car emissions myth 'busted'

Fears that electric cars could actually increase carbon emissions are a baseless, a study suggests.

www.bbc.co.uk

Where the UK saw reductions of 30% (hence my reference of 1/3rd). Obviously it is possible to improve on this by reducing the carbon within the energy mix (as seen in other countries).
As I've said before, the best steps to reduce carbon emissions are actual steps, as a mile walked will still be less than a 70% reduction in emissions.

 

[BananaRepublic]

If you are able, get yourself along to the Fully Charged Live event, at Farnborough in a few weeks time.

The event was postponed last year due to Covid and this year is being titled as Fully Charged Outside (probably because there'll be less use of the indoors exhibition halls this time around).

They expect every EV car on sale in the UK to be there (I believe it's now around 40 plus different models), as well as some electric motor bikes, bikes, scooters and commercial electric vehicles.

Lots of other green energy and environmentally friendly stuff there as well.

Fully Charged LIVE! 3rd - 5th September 2021 | Fully Charged Show

The Worlds Number One Electric Vehicle and Clean Energy Youtube sensation is returning to Farnborough, Fully Charged LIVE UK in September 2021.

fullycharged.show

z

 

[Ken H]

@Ken H
Yorkshire Dales: AC public chargers located at Clapham, Austwick, Sainforth, Horton, Buckden, Kettlewell, Linton, Grassington, Coniston Cold, Malham, etc. DC (50kW) rapids at Settle, Skipton, Steetley, Silsden, Ilkley, Otley, etc.

Stratford upon Avon: AC at at least 11 locations; DC rapid at at least 5 locations.

Look at https://www.plugshare.com/ for details.

there is 1 (one) in settle. none in my village. The one in Settle isnt in Settle but in the courtyard which about 2 miles south of Settle.

Most, though not all, still have a traditional mechanical transmission. There were models where the petrol engine only powered the wheels via the generator and electric motor(s) but I'm not sure if there are any still available now.


19% renewables in July, according to National Grid.
11% wind
7% solar
1% hydro

Plus 15% nuclear which is at least low-carbon once the plant has been built.

A petrol car is 100% fossil fuel.

Quite a lot of June there was no wind. Look at the history here - http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
And what do we do when we get an anticyclone over the UK for weeks in February. Thick cloud, bitterly cold and no wind?
I dont think nuclear is that green. Look at the environmental damage Fukishima and Chernobyl did. And the ongoing problems of radiation getting into the Irish sea from Seascale.
And I am not sure about importing too much power from abroad. We should be generating our own.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wasn't, just repeating what was cited in the study within this link:

Fair enough. I suspect that study used older data, and I would love to see the assumptions behind it!

We should be generating our own.

Electrons don’t understand political or geographical boundaries. If Norway has lots of spare hydropower for us when it’s not windy here, and we have lots of spare wind power for them when it is, then what’s the problem?

 

[Meerkat]

My issue with charging points is whether they will expand in line with the volume of electric cars unless charging costs rise significantly.
For example a service station - having a handful of chargers is probably ok at the moment, but will they have a charger on all the hundreds of parking spaces that are used at peak times but empty a lot of the rest of the time (And could the grid even power that with service stations usually being out in the sticks)?
Same question applies to supermarkets and even more to pubs and restaurant.
Two more trivial questions
Why do EVs have huge wheels - the VW Golf equivalent has 19” wheels!?
Why are the RAC saying they can tow EVs because they have trailers lifting all four wheels - why is that needed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

you can charge off a 13a socket but its quite slow. and you should pay the host. have cash ready. leave it behind in your room if you think there would be a 'oh you musn't' discussion.

Etiquette hasn't really developed on that yet so I wouldn't be quite that certain. I'd be happy for anyone staying over to charge theirs provided if I was staying at their house I'd be afforded the same courtesy. After all, if a friend or family was staying with me I'd probably have fed them etc.

You're not an ideal candidate for an EV with current infrastructure . If we really do end up all electric in a decade or so, systems will need to be developed for people who don't have off-road parking.

With a typical 200+ mile range of newer EVs, "plugging in while at the supermarket, gym or whatever once a week" is likely to fulfil that need for most people. Yes, it'll cost more than plugging in on your drive, but then houses without off-road parking generally cost less to buy or rent than houses with it (nothing to do with EVs, just because most people don't like a parking bunfight), so horses for courses there, you save one way you pay more the other.

Why do EVs have huge wheels - the VW Golf equivalent has 19” wheels!?

Large alloy wheels with relatively skinny tyres are trendy at the moment, and EVs presently sit at the premium end of the market where that is an expectation.

(In essence it's a marketing need, not a technical one)

Why are the RAC saying they can tow EVs because they have trailers lifting all four wheels - why is that needed?

I guess some EVs don't like to freewheel for whatever reason. You certainly can't just pop them out of gear.

My issue with charging points is whether they will expand in line with the volume of electric cars unless charging costs rise significantly.

I would be certain they will, yes.

For example a service station - having a handful of chargers is probably ok at the moment, but will they have a charger on all the hundreds of parking spaces that are used at peak times but empty a lot of the rest of the time (And could the grid even power that with service stations usually being out in the sticks)?

Yes.

Easier to run a set of pylons to the middle of nowhere than in a town!

Same question applies to supermarkets and even more to pubs and restaurant.

I think "depends" is your answer there.