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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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Roast Veg

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I only ever drive 300 mile round trips between West Yorkshire and Kent, and don't commute or go shopping. I'm still awaiting that second hand market, but unfortunately people are really hanging on to their EVs with the current situation.

A motorway cruising diesel estate will run you less than £7k for a tax free 2016 model, but no such EVs on the horizon.
 
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AM9

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I only ever drive 300 mile round trips between West Yorkshire and Kent, and don't commute or go shopping. I'm still awaiting that second hand market, but unfortunately people are really hanging on to their EVs with the current situation.

A motorway cruising diesel estate will run you less than £7k for a tax free 2016 model, but no such EVs on the horizon.
2nd hand EVs will appear in car park loads in the next couple of years as the rental and PCP contracts end. This will coincide with the established manufacturers bringing out their commodity EV ranges that they expect to sell up to the deadline for IC cars. The problem then will be disposing of IC vehicles, - there won't be that many die hard petrolheads around by then.
 

Roast Veg

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2nd hand EVs will appear in car park loads in the next couple of years as the rental and PCP contracts end. This will coincide with the established manufacturers bringing out their commodity EV ranges that they expect to sell up to the deadline for IC cars. The problem then will be disposing of IC vehicles, - there won't be that many die hard petrolheads around by then.
It's been a couple of years coming for a couple of years.
 

AM9

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It's been a couple of years coming for a couple of years.
I haven't hear that 'it's' been a couple of years a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, sales of EVs are ramping up faster every year, so these second-hand vehicles must be appearing somewhere on the market even if you haven't seen them.
 

Bletchleyite

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I haven't hear that 'it's' been a couple of years a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, sales of EVs are ramping up faster every year, so these second-hand vehicles must be appearing somewhere on the market even if you haven't seen them.

There are loads of used Nissan Leafs about, certainly.
 

AM9

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There are loads of used Nissan Leafs about, certainly.
Coprrect, and with the volume of Hyundai Ioniqs and e-Niros hittin the road this year, many of them will appear in the secondhand market in 2023. Why should 2nd hand EVs not appear when IC vehicles do come from PCP sales?
 

Meerkat

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Large alloy wheels with relatively skinny tyres are trendy at the moment, and EVs presently sit at the premium end of the market where that is an expectation.

(In essence it's a marketing need, not a technical one)
19” wheels on Golf size cars that aren’t EV? I wondered whether it was related to squeezing more range or it enabling a more efficient motor speed??
I would be certain they will, yes.
Why? installing and maintaining chargers won’t be cheap so installing hundreds that wont be used much won’t be attractive unless they can charge good money for it (especially having lost the petrol sales)
Easier to run a set of pylons to the middle of nowhere than in a town!
But very expensive!
 

The Ham

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I haven't hear that 'it's' been a couple of years a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, sales of EVs are ramping up faster every year, so these second-hand vehicles must be appearing somewhere on the market even if you haven't seen them.

Indeed, a couple of years ago it was probably a car of in a couple of years we'd see the volumes to see a good number of seconds hand cars in a couple of years.

At 9% EV's this year (and likely to be higher again next year) it's now likely that in 3 or 4 years there'll be a good crop of end of PCP EV's available that are sub 5 years old.

Even 18 months ago EV's were less than 5% and you don't need to go back much further for sub 1% figures.

If that rate of growth continues then there's unlikely to be all that many pure ICE (and certainly pure Diesel, which is already lower than EV's) by the time the ban on their sale (new vehicles) comes into being.

My issue with charging points is whether they will expand in line with the volume of electric cars unless charging costs rise significantly.
For example a service station - having a handful of chargers is probably ok at the moment, but will they have a charger on all the hundreds of parking spaces that are used at peak times but empty a lot of the rest of the time (And could the grid even power that with service stations usually being out in the sticks)?
Same question applies to supermarkets and even more to pubs and restaurant.
Two more trivial questions
Why do EVs have huge wheels - the VW Golf equivalent has 19” wheels!?
Why are the RAC saying they can tow EVs because they have trailers lifting all four wheels - why is that needed?

Services will adapt to changing markets, however if you fill up with petrol at a services you'll be charged a lot more than at the supermarket which is an extra few miles off your route.

Whilst there will be demand for rapid chargers, there'll also be demand for the route of chargers which are at the upper end of what you can have at home. As there'll be those who "need" coffee more frequently than their car needs charging and so can opt to top up by (say) 15 miles rather than needing 100+ miles.

Also expect the way we do things to change, for instance a drive through. McDonald's already are offering order by app and being it to your car rather than needing to drive to the window to collect. That new system would allow you to park up, plug in, order and get your food without going in. It also allows them to build their sites in a different way to the way that they did in the past (where a road was needed all the way around the building). Such changes are just at the start of the change, however are likely to be mainstream by the time significant numbers of cars are EV.

Likewise I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a shift towards smaller service stations, with a single (say) Starbucks located within a mile or two of an existing motorway junction (most likely along a secondary route to still pick up a decent amount of passing trade). As the need to serve everyone at a one stop shop becomes harder to do (not just due to EV charging).

People are already picking which services that they stop at based on food/coffee choices, with a car which could tell you this along your entire route and matches this with your need to charge your car someone who likes Costa could hop from one to another whilst someone who wants Starbucks could do likewise and neither need to darken the door of the other chain. You could even hop between Farm Shops or other independent high quality foodie outlets.

It shouldn't be hard to educate you navigation system of your preferences rather than relying on your knowledge of what's at each services or knowing that this farm shop cafe is similar to what you enjoy locally to your home that you'll likely enjoy it (and with the option to downgrade the likelihood of it being suggested again so the system learns more about your tastes and provides better suggestions in the future).

By customising what you want the need to pull up at a services with 500 spaces and need a rapid charge (along with the other 450 cars there) then shrinks rapidly. In doing so the need for massive infrastructure capacity in a few locations then starts to fall and the grid is more likely to be able to cope.

For instance, for a fairly small time penalty why stop at Exeter services when you can use IKEA or Tesco (both add a few minutes compared to using the services) knowing that the fastest chargers are less likely to be needed (IKEA is likely to have lots of people there for a couple of hours, whilst Tesco is likely to have quite a lot of people only using a small top up as it's there and free and being there for longer than 30 minutes).

The way we do things will change, the problem is that until it does most complaints about EV's are based on what we currently do. Now some changes will be both annoying and helpful (such as being forced to take a break in a 4 hour journey, and thus making us a safer driver).

Others may mean that we go out more to meet with people. For instance, it maybe that someone would do a day trip to somewhere a few hours from home and then go and seeing friends/family for an evening/overnight before going home again.

With the change to booking into accommodation later in the day (due to Covid) it could well be that someone from (say) Kent on their way to Devon starts off fairly early, has a day out at Longleat and gets to their accommodation around 8pm (using a key safe to get in).

In doing so, they miss the worst of the traffic, their holiday starts earlier/finishes later and have no issues with range on their EV. In doing so it's arguably better than what happens now, it's just that by being forced to do it the way they holiday shifts a little. However with an ICE car nothing would change and they would just sit in horrendous traffic, as that's what everyone else does as they can't get into their accommodation before 4pm.

I'm not saying that would meet everyone's need, rather that such changes could likely change the way things are done by enough that for those who carry on as they always have will still be able to do so.
 
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AM9

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19” wheels on Golf size cars that aren’t EV? I wondered whether it was related to squeezing more range or it enabling a more efficient motor speed??
Electric motor speeds are far less of a concern than IC engine speeds. Also, EVs don't have motors that drive the wheels directly, they still need flexible drive linkages (e.g. so-called 'universal joints) to allow compliant suspensions, and the road wheels do not turn at the same speed as the rotors in the motors, (just like thy don't in electric train transmissions).

Why? installing and maintaining chargers won’t be cheap so installing hundreds that wont be used much won’t be attractive unless they can charge good money for it (especially having lost the petrol sales)
The models of businesses that provide charging opportunities will drastically change from what you see now. Just look where the chargers are already appearing: supermarket car parks*, sports venues, city centre car parks, transport hubs, none of which are seen as go to locations for fuel now.
* larger supermarkets may have queue-up service stations, but far more will have charging stations, which don't have any of the fire and other safety restrictions that volatile fuel filling does. I would even hazard a guess, that within a few years of almost total EV use, allowing the lay public to dispense petrol from a pumped mass storage to a vehicle that may have a significant electrostatic charge on it will be considered an unnecessary safety risk.

But very expensive!
As above, the business model will be completely different and the existence of chargers will be seen as an asset to draw cutom in. How many petrol stations close at night?
 

The Ham

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As above, the business model will be completely different and the existence of chargers will be seen as an asset to draw cutom in. How many petrol stations close at night?

I'd also add that many could be added by operators to keep customers.

For instance, at the services, does it matter that you spend £15 million installing infrastructure to allow electric charging if your services brings in enough in profits to cover the difference between what's charged for electricity and the costs. Especially as without that spend you're likely to be in the position where you go out of business.

It's like saying, why would someone spend millions on a new services when they'll not make that much each year? The operators aren't in it for a year or two, but decades. It's also worth noting that investment would still hold value at the end of the time period, as well as investment often means lower tax bills.
 

Bletchleyite

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19” wheels on Golf size cars that aren’t EV? I wondered whether it was related to squeezing more range or it enabling a more efficient motor speed??

Doubt it, you can do both of those things with gearing.

Why? installing and maintaining chargers won’t be cheap so installing hundreds that wont be used much won’t be attractive unless they can charge good money for it (especially having lost the petrol sales)

Because if they don't their competitors will.
 

Julia

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So once the basic infrastructure to support general use of EVs is there, hydrocarbon fuel sales will fall leading to a decline in it's general availability, i.e. service stations closed or converted to charging only...

My money's on service stations in urban areas disappearing first and turning into housing once they've stripped the tanks out... which imho won't be a bad thing.
 

Bletchleyite

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My money's on service stations in urban areas disappearing first and turning into housing once they've stripped the tanks out... which imho won't be a bad thing.

Most of the income from petrol stations and service stations is from other stuff, not fuel. A petrol station makes very little on fuel, the margin is tiny. So I can see them turning into Tesco Expresses, coffee places etc with charger-fitted parking bays.
 

DelW

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19” wheels on Golf size cars that aren’t EV? I wondered whether it was related to squeezing more range or it enabling a more efficient motor speed??
Larger wheels don't necessarily mean a larger rolling radius - they're usually paired with lower profile tyres (i.e. with shallower sidewalls). The overall diameter of the tyre tread is more or less the same, as it's limited by the dimensions of wheel arch and suspension components.
 

Domh245

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Larger wheels don't necessarily mean a larger rolling radius - they're usually paired with lower profile tyres (i.e. with shallower sidewalls). The overall diameter of the tyre tread is more or less the same, as it's limited by the dimensions of wheel arch and suspension components.

I had the same thought, but when actually checking it out, the VW ID3 (effectively the golf's replacement as family hatchback) has a rolling diameter of ~700mm, to the Golf's ~635mm (though the e-golf has the exact same size as the conventional golf). Not sure if this holds true for other manufacturers though

One thing that I suppose larger rims would allow for is better aero. A larger rim gives you more space to create a nice flat(ish) shape to reduce the drag, and I suppose also minimises sidewall depth which could also have a small aero benefit
 

Bletchleyite

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I genuinely think it's just trendy. EVs are expensive so they have to aim at premium buyers, there are presently no budget (£10-12K new ish) EVs on the market. So if you put 16" steel wheels with plastic trims on, you won't sell them.
 
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skyhigh

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I would be certain they will, yes.
Have a look at the Rugby services for example - a total of 24 150kW chargers with a plan for another 24 existing services to have similar provision to be installed.

The main operator of service station chargers (Electric Highway) has recently been bought out by Gridserve and they're in the process of upgrading the services - the old units could only charge one car at a time, the new ones can do 2 and further units are planned in to be installed too. One of the services I normally stop at will have gone from 2x points to 8x by the end of the year. Gridserve are also building electric-only service stations - the first one, in Braintree, has 36 charge points and there's plans to build 100 of these sites across the country. Work has already started on the next 2.

Charging infrastructure in towns is also coming on rapidly - Tesco are installing both paid-for fast chargers and free 7kW ones at most of their sites. Seeing the pace of change, I don't have any concerns that the number of chargers won't keep up with demand.
 

Ken H

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2nd hand EVs will appear in car park loads in the next couple of years as the rental and PCP contracts end. This will coincide with the established manufacturers bringing out their commodity EV ranges that they expect to sell up to the deadline for IC cars. The problem then will be disposing of IC vehicles, - there won't be that many die hard petrolheads around by then.
lots of 4-5 old vehicles in need of new batteries.
 

skyhigh

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lots of 4-5 old vehicles in need of new batteries.
Rubbish. My car has an 8-year warranty on the battery, and the previous one I had had 92% battery health left after 6 years and approx 50,000 miles.
 

Ken H

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Rubbish. My car has an 8-year warranty on the battery, and the previous one I had had 92% battery health left after 6 years and approx 50,000 miles.
its number of charging cycles. a really hammered EV, that is discharged and re-charged every day will have more knackered batteries than one thats just done a bit of leisure journies. How do you know the history of the battery when you kick tyres at a car lot?
 

skyhigh

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its number of charging cycles. a really hammered EV, that is discharged and re-charged every day will have more knackered batteries than one thats just done a bit of leisure journies. How do you know the history of the battery when you kick tyres at a car lot?
The battery management system on the car will calculate and record the state of health of the battery. On my model that can easily be read by plugging a Bluetooth OBD dongle in that's connected to my phone. Any reasonable garage should be willing to tell you what the % health is.

As I said, I had a 22kWh car with 50,000 miles with 92% battery capacity left. That's plenty of charging cycles.

There's not going to be lots of 4 year old cars sitting about needing new batteries - no chance.
 

gg1

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I was talking to my ex boss in the fleet division of a large supermarket the other day and she thinks the supermarkets will be pulling out of Petrol/Diesel Sales within the next 5 years and once that happens, that alone may push fuel prices up, and they moment they need the fuel stations to power their own delivery vans but once they move those to electric the fuel stations will go.
Extremely unlikely they will do so in such short timescales.

The reason supermarkets have petrol stations in the first place is to attract customers to the stores, profit from fuel sales is negligible. In 5 years time the majority of cars on the road will still be ICE, any stores which remove petrol stations will become far less attractive for a large proportion of the population compared to their competitors which do still have them.

Realistically I don't see that happening until at least 70% of cars are EVs.
 

Bletchleyite

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Extremely unlikely they will do so in such short timescales.

The reason supermarkets have petrol stations in the first place is to attract customers to the stores, profit from fuel sales is negligible. In 5 years time the majority of cars on the road will still be ICE, any stores which remove petrol stations will become far less attractive for a large proportion of the population compared to their competitors which do still have them.

Realistically I don't see that happening until at least 70% of cars are EVs.

But once they are they will fit chargers for the exact same reason. Charge and do your shop.
 

gg1

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But once they are they will fit chargers for the exact same reason. Charge and do your shop.
It's not a case of either/or, most large supermarkets now have both charging spaces AND a petrol station.

I'm sure they will close their petrol stations eventually but it would be commercial suicide to do so while a majority or even large minority of their customer base still drive ICE cars.
 

davews

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Our Tesco next to Martins Heron has a few charging stations but is unable to have a petrol station because it is next to the railway line (fire risk) - or so I am told.
As for electric cars, at my age I have already decided that when my current Fiesta gives up the ghost that will be my last car. Hard enough to find a parking space anywhere near the house never mind charging it.
 

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Ken H

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For people who can't charge at home I recently saw a Shell petrol station recently being converted from 8 petrol/diesel pumps to 6 of those plus 2 electric bays. I'm sure this won't be the only one.

Hopefully you can see the layout here:

petrol station nearest to me has 2 2 sided pumps, and 3 parking spaces. The pumps are v busy, usually a queue to get on one. Local HGV fill up there. No room for any charging points. nearest next station in 6 miles away. This EV thing is OK in cities, useless in the country.
 

Bletchleyite

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petrol station nearest to me has 2 2 sided pumps, and 3 parking spaces. The pumps are v busy, usually a queue to get on one. Local HGV fill up there. No room for any charging points. nearest next station in 6 miles away. This EV thing is OK in cities, useless in the country.

Most people who live in the countryside have off road parking, or at least can be sure to always park outside their house on the road so could run a cable.
 

Ken H

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Most people who live in the countryside have off road parking, or at least can be sure to always park outside their house on the road so could run a cable.
not me. nor most in my village. Its a mess of shared accesses, unadopted roads in a conservation area/national park. not sure the electric supply is up to much extra load. Most of the village is one big transformer. but part are smaller transformers up on poles.
 
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