Have TPE finally given up on the Scarborough service

[BeHereNow]

several key infrastructure projects on time, advertised capacity on the network was actually there

Hi, thanks for responding to questions.

Which infrastructure schemes due by November 2019, and directly affecting TPE, haven't now been delivered?

And in which locations is 'advertised' capacity not being delivered? Maybe on the East Coast, where Transpennine run two 100mph paths every hour? Surely the train plan has to be compliant with relevant train planning rules.

I'm also interested as to why if Nova 1s are on time and Nova 3 training is delayed, why there is an unexpected need for traincrew training. Nova 2 completely separate from all North route rosters.

 

[tpjm]

Which infrastructure schemes due by November 2019, and directly affecting TPE, haven't now been delivered?

And in which locations is 'advertised' capacity not being delivered? Maybe on the East Coast, where Transpennine run two 100mph paths every hour? Surely the train plan has to be compliant with relevant train planning rules.

I was generically referring to the TPE franchise as a whole. There’s been a lot of infrastructure that hasn’t been completed on time, like the Bolton electrification and Leeds Platform 0. Whenever anybody replies to threads like this, there are always comments like “they should have known and planned for it”, which is sometimes impossible.

In relation to capacity, I was talking of the physical planning capacity. The recast was proposed to allow a higher frequency of services through some key pinch points across the North. Whether or not it works from a planning perspective has no bearing on the real world operation and that shows on a daily basis. The problem is that TOCs said they could deliver a service plan and the franchise agreement is written on this basis. It’s hard as an operator to know what’s going to happen on the network (I.e with other operators services) which is why NR are responsible for modelling performance and checking that their ‘paths’ work.

I'm also interested as to why if Nova 1s are on time and Nova 3 training is delayed, why there is an unexpected need for traincrew training. Nova 2 completely separate from all North route rosters.

Nova 2 is not completely separate. It’s crewed from Glasgow, Preston and Manchester which means there’s some cross-over and lack of cross-cover when they are training. Nova 3 is still being trained, just at a significantly reduced rate. In order to retain train crew competency, they need to work the traction every once in a while. It’s currently a juggling act of keeping people competent, keeping people training, and maintaining enough colleagues for normal service.

Just to be really clear though, crew shortages occur predominantly in disruption. When the train plan is able to run as normal, there is ample crew. It’s all about the levels of people you have sitting around spare. Northern seem to be in a worse state than TPE at the moment as their spare is non-existent.

 

[BeHereNow]

Thank you. That provides a useful perspective, illustrating that it's not one party that's at fault - the whole industry is failing.

 

[Ben Bow]

........


Nova 2 is not completely separate. It’s crewed from Glasgow, Preston and Manchester which means there’s some cross-over and lack of cross-cover when they are training. Nova 3 is still being trained, just at a significantly reduced rate. In order to retain train crew competency, they need to work the traction every once in a while. It’s currently a juggling act of keeping people competent, keeping people training, and maintaining enough colleagues for normal service.

Just to be really clear though, crew shortages occur predominantly in disruption. When the train plan is able to run as normal, there is ample crew. It’s all about the levels of people you have sitting around spare. Northern seem to be in a worse state than TPE at the moment as their spare is non-existent.

I would suggest that post illustrates much of what is wrong at TPE, in particular those two statements.

Crews who have been trained on some of the new traction have lost their competency because of the lack of opportunities to work that traction, and will need training again in due course, thus adding to the already very heavy training requirement.

Disruption is caused by the lack of available crews, not all the time, agreed, but there were no significant infrastructure or other issues on either the Scarborough route on Saturday, or Newcastle on Monday, yet the TPE service to both those locations on those days was decimated. In the region of 80 trains were fully or part uncovered for a driver/guard or both at the start of the day yesterday, before any disruption occurred. Guards are being sent daily emails with long lists of trains which are uncovered in full, or part.

I'm not saying that there is deliberate mis-information going on, its just that somewhere the real situation 'on the ground' is not being fully appreciated at higher levels, either through incompetence or ignorance. The service is an absolute utter and complete shambles at the moment, reflected in woeful daily PPM results.

 

[NoMorePacers]

No it wasn't - ASB went down by a third. I'd say the calculated attacks on TPE by local politicians rather than focusing on the social issues in Hull is barmy. Every time I've been to Hull there's been an incident (assaults, drugs, theft) - it's not up to a TOC to police the locals, in fact I'd say that a lot of the locals have no pride in their town.

Why does Scarborough get new stock? Well it helps that there is land available to build a new depot to service new trains. Then the core route is often much busier than Leeds to Hull. Stood up on a 185 yesterday from York at 1pm, last 3 times I've gone between Hull and Leeds around lunch time I've always got a seat - capacity is more required on the core route, although Hull will be getting refurbished 6 car 185's.

Finally, with speed comes infrastructure. TRU will easily improve that.

It does seem to me that people lack the clarity of mind when it comes to where they live - it's all about them. Every TOC has to fulfill the need of every route not just on individuals. It's disingenuous to say that any TOC has given up on a route because there are many factors affecting every route and every business.

Huddersfield-Manchester being 5mph faster will not make the service from Hull faster if it's stopping at every single house on the line.

Plus from what I've heard TPE wanted to close the ticket office at Hull, but couldn't so have run it down instead. And seem to have only a handful of staff. And basically allow you to try and fare evade from there (would've worked had Northern beat the RMT at you-know-what).

 

[mike57]

So who would you hand the franchise to and how would they do it better?

Clearly TPE are finding it challenging and I would put that down to a lot of external (and some internal) factors. Maybe you'd like to elaborate on how TPE could better run the service for SCA whilst keeping all the other stakeholders happy?

Unstaffed stations (TPE - anyway) generally have Customer help points. I can't think of any stations that don't, although I might be wrong.

.

To answer a few of the points made:

I think anyone could a better job. The May 2018 timetable change obviously wasn't going to work, the problems were predicted, and sure enough there were (and still are) major problems. As a business you do not tender for something that is impossible to achieve, and if you do and fail then you deserve the fallout. If all the companies involved had said to the DfT we don't think your plans are viable, so we will not be tendering then the DfT would have had two choices, run the franchise directly like LNER or make changes to the requirements. Either way the May 2018 change would not have happened, or if it had it would have been far less wide reaching.

As for the issue of running a better service to Scarborough, we had one pre May 2018, so it can be done. Trains were generally on time, and cancellations were rare, and generally restricted to external events such as bad weather or infrastructure failure. I have been using TPE services to the North West weekly or more since 2007 and even during the December 2010 snow a reasonable service ran. I could get a train direct to Manchester Piccadilly in order to reach all surrounding Manchester destinations. I could get to Liverpool South Parkway or Warrington direct, which are far more use than Lea Green which is just a commuter station in the middle of nowhere. Journey time to Man Pic from Seamer was 2hr 10 - 15m. Service was hourly.

Now we end up at Manchester Victoria (which is also a filthy hole with no facilities on the platforms, not even enough seating, no toilets without going through the barriers and the pub...), with a change and a wait for an airport train which may never arrive, or change at Huddersfield and hope the Man Pic train turns up, at least you can get the tram from Victoria. Cancellations are now running at 2 per day on average with 6 last Saturday which prompted this thread. Journey times to Man Vic are currently 2h +- a few mins, but from December they increase by up to 10 minutes, and from December the average journey time from Man Pic back to Seamer is around 2h 38m which is slower than it was in BR days. Service is still hourly York - Scarborough, but takes longer due to timetable padding to try and reduce effects of the journey through the Leeds Manchester corridor

If you are traveling to other destinations then you cannot rely on the service

So I think the users of this route have every reason to complain

As for what could be done now, I think the obvious solution is to run York Scarborough as a shuttle from Plat 2 at York, it would take 2 units and 3 crews I reckon. Passengers for points west would have the inconvenience of a change, but at least it would be reliable.

I am also fed up with excuses about crew training etc etc. The project manager should be keeping track of external delays in the supply chain and putting in place measures to ensure that they can still run the trains even if his original training schedule is trashed. If that costs money then that is one of the risks of doing business, maybe if the external supply contracts have been set up correctly they can recover some or all of the additional costs, if not, tough.

On the issue of Customer help points Bempton doesn't have one (not be served by Transpennine services since early 2000's), now Northern only station, although we are getting one.

 

[mpthomson]

To answer a few of the points made:

I think anyone could a better job. The May 2018 timetable change obviously wasn't going to work, the problems were predicted, and sure enough there were (and still are) major problems. As a business you do not tender for something that is impossible to achieve, and if you do and fail then you deserve the fallout. If all the companies involved had said to the DfT we don't think your plans are viable, so we will not be tendering then the DfT would have had two choices, run the franchise directly like LNER or make changes to the requirements. Either way the May 2018 change would not have happened, or if it had it would have been far less wide reaching.

As for the issue of running a better service to Scarborough, we had one pre May 2018, so it can be done. Trains were generally on time, and cancellations were rare, and generally restricted to external events such as bad weather or infrastructure failure. I have been using TPE services to the North West weekly or more since 2007 and even during the December 2010 snow a reasonable service ran. I could get a train direct to Manchester Piccadilly in order to reach all surrounding Manchester destinations. I could get to Liverpool South Parkway or Warrington direct, which are far more use than Lea Green which is just a commuter station in the middle of nowhere. Journey time to Man Pic from Seamer was 2hr 10 - 15m. Service was hourly.

Now we end up at Manchester Victoria (which is also a filthy hole with no facilities on the platforms, not even enough seating, no toilets without going through the barriers and the pub...), with a change and a wait for an airport train which may never arrive, or change at Huddersfield and hope the Man Pic train turns up, at least you can get the tram from Victoria. Cancellations are now running at 2 per day on average with 6 last Saturday which prompted this thread. Journey times to Man Vic are currently 2h +- a few mins, but from December they increase by up to 10 minutes, and from December the average journey time from Man Pic back to Seamer is around 2h 38m which is slower than it was in BR days. Service is still hourly York - Scarborough, but takes longer due to timetable padding to try and reduce effects of the journey through the Leeds Manchester corridor

If you are traveling to other destinations then you cannot rely on the service

So I think the users of this route have every reason to complain

As for what could be done now, I think the obvious solution is to run York Scarborough as a shuttle from Plat 2 at York, it would take 2 units and 3 crews I reckon. Passengers for points west would have the inconvenience of a change, but at least it would be reliable.

I am also fed up with excuses about crew training etc etc. The project manager should be keeping track of external delays in the supply chain and putting in place measures to ensure that they can still run the trains even if his original training schedule is trashed. If that costs money then that is one of the risks of doing business, maybe if the external supply contracts have been set up correctly they can recover some or all of the additional costs, if not, tough.

On the issue of Customer help points Bempton doesn't have one (not be served by Transpennine services since early 2000's), now Northern only station, although we are getting one.

If anyone could do a better job have you given them the benefit of your expertise in planning, infra and new fleet introduction?

No one is saying that TPE is blameless but there are things going on which are outside their control

 

[northernchris]

I don't think removing First from the franchise is the right thing to do, it's clear that like Northern they have a huge amount of training to complete. However cancellations do seem to have increased substantially in the last week or so due to lack of crew, and there's been numerous examples of consecutive trains being cancelled, or the following train running late.

I do think TPE could and should be doing a lot more with how they ensure passengers are getting to their destinations. In the case of Hull cancellations, passengers at Leeds are being advised to board the Northern Selby service which has meant there's been times when their own passengers have been left behind. In the Manchester direction it's whoever has the strongest elbows gets on, rather than those wanting specific destinations. No queuing system, no extra staff to help and a very poor social media presence just adds to the misery and chaos

 

[yorkguy]

As a mere fare payer, of a season ticket from Malton to Leeds that costs well over 3 grand, I don’t understand all the reasons behind the daily failure of this appalling service. All I know is, I never know when or if I’ll get to work, or when or if I’ll get home. I don’t expect to sit down on the thing - just to stand and arrive at my destination roughly on time would be a bonus once in a while. I could count the times on one hand that I’ve arrived back from work in Malton on time in the past 6 months. I regularly catch any train I can back to York from Leeds, and then hop on a Coastliner bus which gets me home far more quickly and reliably. Shambolic

 

[BeHereNow]

If anyone could do a better job have you given them the benefit of your expertise in planning, infra and new fleet introduction

Do you think they would have listened?

 

[Yorkshire222]

There were 2 Nova 3s running yesterday, I took one from Huddersfield to Leeds, due to depart 15:00, arrived 10 min late and didn't leave until around 15:20 due, we were told, to a "problem with the train". The run to Leeds was slower than usual and the problems were obviously persisting with it not leaving there until around 15:50. I have no information about the problem but it's disappointing for a brand-new train.

 

[mike57]

If anyone could do a better job have you given them the benefit of your expertise in planning, infra and new fleet introduction?

No one is saying that TPE is blameless but there are things going on which are outside their control

TPE introduced a timetable in May 2018 which had 2 trains arriving within 3 minutes of each other at the single Malton platform and had a turnaround time in Scarborough which was too short given the likelihood of even minor delays over a 2.5h plus journey from Liverpool.

This is either incompetence or a complete disregard for passengers, so yes given the glaring errors made over this I would suspect that other areas of the business are probably having similar problems

I therefore stand by my comments

 

[scarby]

If anyone could do a better job have you given them the benefit of your expertise in planning, infra and new fleet introduction?

No one is saying that TPE is blameless but there are things going on which are outside their control

It’s not the customers’ job to provide that expertise, that’s what we expect the railway industry to provide.

Pre-May 2018 Scarborough-Manchester Airport service: a reliable, on-time train, relax with at-seat service from York, an easy change at Piccadilly, walk a few yards for the airport train. Enjoyable journey, feel relaxed ahead of flight.

Post-May 2018 Scarborough-Manchester Airport ‘service’: anxious before leaving, continually checking RTT to try and figure out if the train will run. Have to plan to arrive at the airport way too early just in case. Get to York and no catering trolly due to the daily problems. Get to Victoria and what a surprise, the airport train is cancelled. Head on the tram with luggage, get to Piccadilly, then walk with luggage to pl 15 to join the passengers staring at the chaos of the departure screens. Go back to the main part of the station and get on the stopper to the airport. Arrive simply relieved to have actually made it.

 

[yorkguy]

I agree with others. I’m not interested in TPE’s reasons for their operational incompetence. I just want them to provide the advertised service. My £3,248 Malton/Leeds season ticket runs out this weekend, and there’s no way I’m renewing it. I’m back in the car on Monday, sharing the drive with a colleague who also didn’t renew back in September. That’s £6.5k in lost revenue just from two of us. I might reconsider going back to the train if and when they can figure out how to run any kind of reliable service on the Scarborough branch.

 

[Skipness]

This morning 28/11/19 the 10.41 Scarborough to Liverpool shown as 15 mins late departure and the 11.41 cancelled because of a lack of train crew.

 

[scarby]

This morning 28/11/19 the 10.41 Scarborough to Liverpool shown as 15 mins late departure and the 11.41 cancelled because of a lack of train crew.

When the new timetable started with the long turnarounds it seemed the service had at least resumed some semblance of reliability, albeit with a lot of inbound delays.

Now it is being decimated on a daily basis with mass cancellations and is even worse than with the May 2018 change, which is really quite something.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Post-May 2018 Scarborough-Manchester Airport ‘service’: anxious before leaving, continually checking RTT to try and figure out if the train will run. Have to plan to arrive at the airport way too early just in case. Get to York and no catering trolly due to the daily problems. Get to Victoria and what a surprise, the airport train is cancelled.

There is, of course is the special treat laid on at Victoria should your train arrive at platforms 4, 5 or 6 with heavy luggage, that the lifts have been out of commission from November 2019 to January 2020 whilst they are upgraded, so weightlifting is a good hobby to have indulged in previously to ensure your heavy luggage in transported up and down flights of stairs to reach platform 3 or the main station concourse...

 

[Glenn1969]

I suppose passengers wanting an Airport service need to change at York or Leeds to a direct service while Victoria lifts are out of action when coming from the North East and East Coast destinations

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This morning 28/11/19 the 10.41 Scarborough to Liverpool shown as 15 mins late departure and the 11.41 cancelled because of a lack of train crew.

Thank heavens that our armed forces these days do not have the same "lions led by donkeys" leadership as currently shown by TPE or Northern top brass. Can you imagine the scenario where the order to advance is given and the message back from the front goes back to HQ...."We cannot do so, we have a lack of soldiery"...

 

[blackfive460]

This morning 28/11/19 the 10.41 Scarborough to Liverpool shown as 15 mins late departure and the 11.41 cancelled because of a lack of train crew.

As well as the cancellations, the number of late departures is becoming worrying too.
I assume it's down to the late arrival of incoming services meaning that the crew don't have sufficient time for their PNB.
With the new timetable the turnaround is being reduced from an hour to around 40 minutes so that's only going to get worse.

I'm not surprised to read here that season ticket holders aren't renewing and turning to their cars. I don't drive (or have a season ticket) but I've been looking seriously at making use of the bus despite the much longer journey time to York.

 

[wilsontown]

If Transdev put on something like the Leeds-York ZAP bus between Scarborough and York I think it would do pretty well. At least you'd have a chance of leaving / getting to Scarborough.

 

[Skipness]

If Transdev put on something like the Leeds-York ZAP bus between Scarborough and York I think it would do pretty well. At least you'd have a chance of leaving / getting to Scarborough.

Unfortunately anything from York to Scarborough has to use the A64, a road notable for regular delays .

 

[_toommm_]

Head on the tram with luggage, get to Piccadilly, then walk with luggage to pl 15

If we had p15 at Piccadilly that would alleviate a few of the problems with TPE

 

[Bevan Price]

Only 3 cancelled TPE departures from Liverpool Lime Street on 28 Nov. - is that a record?
(8 cancelled on Wed. 27 Nov.; 14 cancelled on Monday 25 Nov.)

 

[LittleAH]

Huddersfield-Manchester being 5mph faster will not make the service from Hull faster if it's stopping at every single house on the line.

Plus from what I've heard TPE wanted to close the ticket office at Hull, but couldn't so have run it down instead. And seem to have only a handful of staff. And basically allow you to try and fare evade from there (would've worked had Northern beat the RMT at you-know-what).

Nonsense. TRU will increase line speed between Huddersfield and Dewsbury to 100mph from 70mph which debunks what you're saying and only at peak time with Hull services stop at local stops between Huddersfield and Stalybridge while also dropping the Dewsbury and Garforth calls. Four tracking will mean opportunity to overtake too, which will help Scarborough/Middlesbrough services in the future.

Also complete nonsense RE Hull ticket office, asked a friend of mine who works on the railway. His exact words are "What a load of crock, no doubt local Hull Councillors have been lying again".

 

[mike57]

06:42 Cancelled again this morning from Scarborough. Not sure I believe the reason given, signalling failure as, a) Train is stabled in Scarborough overnight and b) Nothing else is disrupted between York and Scarborough at the moment according to RTT. Thats the second time this week, and this is an important commuter train into York and Leeds. Fortunately I was able to arrange a lift this morning, as I am now at the stage where using the TPE service from Scarborough/Seamer is now the last option.

Yesterday 08:30 to Edinburgh from Manchester was cancelled, again due to staff shortages, and several other Manchester to Edinburgh and return services were cancelled. I was able to catch the stopping Northern service which follows it, to Preston, so total delay was only 25 mins ish. I think this illustrates the difference between York - Scarborough where TPE are the only provider, and a lot of their other routes where you have alternatives, which may be slightly slower/less convenient, but a cancellation doesn't totally destroy the days plans.

If TPE were serious about delivering a service then given the current problems they would hire in a WCR/DRS unit to act as a York/Scarborough back up. WCR drivers at least must have route knowledge as they run regular excursions to Scarborough.

If things this weekend are as bad as last weekend then I would advise against travel to Scarborough, as the A64 is closed again from this evening until early Monday morning, and any bus replacements will take at least 30mins longer than the already extended journey times when road transport is used. We were due to go to York tomorrow for a leisure outing, meeting with friends but have postponed it a week.

Edit: two more inbound cancellations showing, going to be another bad day

 

[Ben Bow]

Cue much general giving up and throwing of arms in the air by TPE "its not our fault guv, nothing can we do about it?..."

 

[NoMorePacers]

Cue much general giving up and throwing of arms in the air by TPE "its not our fault guv, nothing can we do about it?..."

And all their apologists...

 

[NoMorePacers]

Nonsense. TRU will increase line speed between Huddersfield and Dewsbury to 100mph from 70mph which debunks what you're saying and only at peak time with Hull services stop at local stops between Huddersfield and Stalybridge while also dropping the Dewsbury and Garforth calls. Four tracking will mean opportunity to overtake too, which will help Scarborough/Middlesbrough services.

It’s just peak times now but I guarantee it won’t be in the future.

 

[BeHereNow]

Also complete nonsense RE Hull ticket office, asked a friend of mine who works on the railway. His exact words are "What a load of crock, no doubt local Hull Councillors have been lying again".

This Twitter thread appears to show the ticket office shutting before 6pm, which does seem to suggest there aren't enough staff.

"@TPExpressTrains need to use rail vouchers to purchase tickets at Hull Station (ticket office times till 8pm) but it’s shut! Now I’m screwed!!! 5:57 PM · Nov 28, 2019"

https://twitter.com/JackMilson/status/1200111369485467648