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Heathrow Expansion plans

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LilLoaf

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I expact that everyone has seen on the news that Heathrow Airport in wanting to build another runway and new terminal. Terminal 6 ? would it be now. Much to the dislike of the greenpiece nuts who are not happy about it.

They plan to have a new terminal, runway, and new rail link to St Pancras. How is the new rail link to St Pancras going to be achieved. Are they just going to make it underground system or is there a way to build in on ground level.

Also is there going to be a new piccadilly line station to T6 of the T5 station?
 
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Mojo

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Not just Greenpeace. Those who live over a wide area of London and South East England will be adversely affected, as we all will in the future. I seriously doubt if the project will happen. It's still got to get planning permission which will most likely happen (even if the Local Authority rejects it it'll still be approved by the Minister), plus go through the courts following the inevitable legal battle, then the contracts tendered, and that's before you even think about land purchase, demolition and construction.

I believe the economic benefits of expansion have been widely overstated, as has the actual need. There are 473,000 flights per year at Heathrow (2006). 100,000 of these serve destinations where there could be a viable rail alternative. A further 100,000 could, in due course also be served with an alternative rail link.
 

5872

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I fail to see how People in SE England will be affected, I live near the flightpaths, doesn't bother me. People who are used to it won't be affected at all.
 

me123

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It's pathetic that they're even thinking of expanding that airport. A new terminal is fair enough as a replacement for an old one, but a sixth terminal is the worst idea I've heard and, with a third runway, we may as well just asphyxiate the planet.

The worst thing about it was that Clyde 1 news were heralding it as good for Glasgow, bringing more flights to London <(
 

westcoaster

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high speed link to st pancras, would imagion it would go st pancras - cricklewood-dudding hill- acton wells?- then join the gwml on the hex route but dont think it would be that high speed though.
 

Metroland

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I was wondering about the Heathrow - St Pancras link myself. I've seen plans of 'Heathrow hub' which is on the GWML and supposed to be a 12 platform station. I'm not entirely sure if crossrail involves 6 tracking Hayes- Ladbroke Grove, with the current traffic I assume it does. In which case Eurostars are more than likely to travel to somewhere up near Acton and head into a tunnel to St Pancras.

Nope, its not just Greenpeace that are against it, its pretty much all the local councils, the Lib-dems, the Conservatives, WWF, many senior scientific advisers, several government bodies, the national trust and most of West London to name but a few.

Leaving the nonsense aside that more efficient planes will reduce carbon - it won't, the airlines will just reduce fares and fly more - the economic argument is quite shaky, especially as far more tourists fly out rather than in and the importance of the internet/video conferencing - most business not not rely on international air travel in any case, just a handful of large multinational corporations. 95% of international goods exports/imports are by sea. Moreover, the busiest routes are to places like Paris, Manchester, Amsterdam, Scotland, all places that doable by rail. Which is why HSR has been proposed instead. Currently airline passenger numbers are well down in any case, while Eurostar numbers continue to rise.

Remember the UK is committed to 80% carbon cuts by law, in order to do this if aviation expands in the way predicted , the rest of the economy has to completely decarbonise. So goodbye coal fired power stations, petrol and diesel cars, buses, trains, industrial processes, hello all new electric, powered by nuclear and renewable. The worry is, it is not apparent that this can be done and it sends out all the wrong messages. Geoff Hoon has pretty much said, plug in hybrid cars are going to become mandatory in order to allow Heathrow to expand - or at least that is what they are relying on. This is a huge gamble, because even if the expansion of Heathrow is worth £5 billion (highly doubtful if you plug in external costs) this is about 0.35% of the current economy. (£5bn out of £1410 billion). The high speed line alternative was supposed to be worth more than this as it serves an area bigger than the SE. So the argument is now, one, the other or both.

=====

Cheering him on are the aviation industry (particularly BAA, the airport’s owner, and British Airways, the dominant airline at Heathrow); big business; and two large unions. Ranged against them, however, is an equally powerful coalition, including environmentalists, London’s mayor, those who live near Heathrow, the two major opposition parties and at least 50 Labour MPs. Mr Brown even had to overcome the disquiet of nearly half his cabinet, who feared that the government’s legally binding commitment to reduce by 80% Britain’s carbon emissions by 2050 would be made to look ridiculous.

The scheme’s supporters claim that the new runway is essential because Heathrow is at the limit of its capacity, the main reason for its chronic lack of punctuality, and thus in danger of losing its status as one of the world’s busiest hubs to rivals on the continent: Frankfurt, Paris’s Charles de Gaulle, Madrid and Amsterdam all have more runways than Heathrow and some are building new ones. They argue that unless Heathrow holds its own, London will become an increasingly unattractive place to do business. In particular, they say that attracting transfer passengers, who are inherently mobile, is vital because they help to sustain an extensive route network.

Mr Brown is peculiarly susceptible to such arguments. During his ten years as chancellor, he often had his ear bent by senior City people about the awfulness of Heathrow. The government is also very close to both BAA and BA, the principal beneficiaries of a Heathrow expansion. Although both firms were privatised in the 1980s (and BAA is Spanish-owned) they are still quaintly regarded in Whitehall as “national champions”. The bond between BAA and the Department for Transport (DfT) is so close that it is sometimes hard to see where one ends and the other begins.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12955302&fsrc=rss

MPs, peers and councillors from all parties have set aside disputes to work together in Parliament and the corridors of power. They are joined by an increasingly angry band of residents, celebrities and pressure groups on the ground, willing to take direct action to stop BAA, the airport's owner.

Even the Environment Agency - an arm of central government headed by Lord Smith, a Culture Secretary under Tony Blair - has expressed "deep concern" over the plan.

While the Conservatives have promised to block the plan if they win the next election, and the Liberal Democrats want it scrapped, an early day motion protesting at the expansion has also been signed by 57 Labour back-benchers.

With parliamentary opposition stretching from Andrew Rosindell, the Right-wing Tory MP for Romford, to Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell on Labour's hard Left, there is a similar electicism to the refuseniks outside Westminster.

Esteemed institutions such as the National Trust, Christian Aid and the RSPB stand shoulder-to-shoulder with more radical groups like Plane Stupid, whose members have made headlines since storming the roof of the Palace of Westminster last February.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...throw-throws-together-unlikely-coalition.html

Tim Johnson, director of the Aviation Environment Federation (AEF), told a forum on eco-friendly travel in London today that carbon dioxide emissions from aircraft were still likely to increase from 30 million tons to 60 million tons by 2040.

Mr Johnson’s comments came following the Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon’s announcement that the construction of a third runway at Heathrow Airport will go ahead, despite opposition from environmental groups.

The Government and airlines have claimed that, by 2020, new, cleaner aircraft will emit 50 per cent less carbon dioxide than current planes in an effort to justify the decision to expand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/t...een-fuels-not-enough-to-reduce-emissions.html

At a cabinet meeting three days ago, both Gordon Brown and Mr Hoon set out the economic argument for Heathrow expansion but their presentation was interrupted. Two of the dissenters were the Environment Secretary, Hilary Benn, and the Climate Change and Energy Secretary, Ed Miliband. Other ministers joined in, concerned the Government's credibility on global warming would crumble at the first major test if the expansion of aviation, the fastest growing source of carbon emissions, was allowed.

Dissenters included the Leader of the House, Harriet Harman, and Skills Secretary, John Denham. They were joined by Douglas Alexander, a close ally of Mr Brown. As patience wore thin, Mr Brown broke up the meeting, with the final package undecided. But he had no intention of allowing delays over the decision, which had already been put off once, to limp on any further.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...at-bought-off-cabinet-dissenters-1380393.html

EPUK's chief executive Philip Mulligan said: "With the current economic situation leading to collapsing sales of new aircraft and cars, the chances of meeting air quality and noise conditions around Heathrow are becoming more and more remote.

"The government's optimistic position assumed a quick introduction of cleaner, quieter aircraft and road vehicles around Heathrow, which now looks highly unlikely to happen."

'Highly irresponsible'

The aviation industry has a voluntary promise to reduce noise and CO2 emissions by 50% and NOx (nitrogen oxides) emissions by 80% by 2020.

The BBC asked Keith Mans, chief executive of the Royal Aeronautical Society, if these targets would be achieved.

"I honestly don't know," he said. "There is a good prospect that they are achievable by 2020 but the science and the engineering solutions to the science are not totally reliable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7831462.stm

The plans include a £6bn increase in road capacity (already announced) involving use of the hard-shoulder on parts of the M1 and M6. There would also be a new company called High Speed 2, for the development of a London-to-Birmingham 200mph high-speed rail link scheme via Heathrow. Additionally, Hoon announced more studies on electrifying the Great Western and Midland Mainline rail lines.

Hoon said High Speed 2 would report on progress by the end of the year. But rail industry doubts funding can be found for such a project costing an estimated £5bn alone to run from London to Heathrow.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jan/16/baa-third-runway-heathrow

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jan/15/heathrow-third-runway2
 
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mbonwick

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What a joke.

3 runways - they can only ever use 2 at a time - so where's the point?

It's the UKs only hub airport - OK, so why not turn one in the Midlands into a hub? Makes more sense IMHO.


And how do they propose to create this 200mph rail link? Seeing as 140mph was abandoned as unsafe..
 

Mojo

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And how do they propose to create this 200mph rail link? Seeing as 140mph was abandoned as unsafe..
If it'll be 200mph then it will have to be a new line.
 

Metroland

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Euro%20hi%20speed%20network.gif


This lot will be deregulated in 2010, meaning anyone can run trains, including airlines, and through ticketing.

Most people think of France as the leader of HSR, its actually Spain.

Two routes, from Barcelona to Malaga and Seville, opened last week. Lines are also being built to link Madrid with Valencia, Alicante, the Basque country and Galicia. The government has promised to lay 10,000km of high-speed track by 2020 to ensure that 90% of Spaniards live within 30 miles of a station. The prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, boasts it will be Europe's most extensive high-speed network.

The high-speed train network is also helping Spain control carbon emissions.Straight tracks and few stops mean AVE trains use 19% less energy than conventional trains. Alberto García, of the Spanish Railways Foundation, has calculated that a passenger on the Madrid-Barcelona line accounts for one-sixth of the carbon emissions of an aeroplane passenger.

High-speed rail tickets are often cheaper. The lowest one-way price on the 410-mile Barcelona-Madrid route this month is €44 (£40). Rail operator Renfe says 99% of trains on the route arrive on time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/spain-trains
 
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flymo

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What a joke.

3 runways - they can only ever use 2 at a time - so where's the point?

It's the UKs only hub airport - OK, so why not turn one in the Midlands into a hub? Makes more sense IMHO.

Because no airline in their right mind would make any airport in the Midlands into a "hub". A hub airport means that this is the main interchange point for an airline to the rest of its destinations. If any airport in the Midlands was made into a hub then the same rubbish would happen. i.e. "Ooohh there's too many planes now", or "It wasn't like this 40 years ago" etc. If anybody arrives in any Midlands hub fro "a" part of the world they would still need to get to civilization, meaning more flights and/or some fantastic rail link which would no doubt cost a gazillion dollars each way.
Like it or not Heathrow is THE gateway for huge numbers of people into UK. Airlines are lining up to get slots for flights there and some slots are auctioned off for millions of dollars {or pounds if you like}, such is the demand. The expansion of Heathrow will inconvenience a few people yet benefit millions more. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. {Thanks Spock}
As for only 2 out of 3 runways being in use, what the heck are you talking about? All 3 runways will be in use. 3 runways will significantly increase the numbers of flights into or out of Heathrow as the "new" arrangement of north and south runways will be far enough apart to allow parallel arrivals or departures or at least closer spacing between 27L and 27R than at present {assuming the new runway arrangement will be 09L/27R, 09C/27C, 09R/27L}. The curfew times will remain unchanged.
The major problem Heathrow has is the staff working in the terminals have no sense of what the world is about and I speak for experience. Arriving into Heathrow is like going back in time. It is a big world out there and the world has changed in the last 50 years where Heathrow still lives. Deal with it.
 

Mojo

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The expansion of Heathrow will inconvenience a few people yet benefit millions more.
Tell that to the millions who are being displaced by climate change...
 

flymo

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The climate has been changing for the last 65 million years and 40 or 50 extra planes a day arriving into Heathrow aint going to change anything. When scientists talk about the ice age they are talking about the LAST ice age. i.e. the most recent one. Climate change is inevitable. When people start messing with Mother Nature and trying to interfere with things, that is when problems occur. Britain is only an island and where it is on the globe because of climate change.
When the weather is too warm people blame global warming. When the weather is too cold people blame global warming. When it is too wet or too dry or too 'normal' people blame global warming. Sometimes you just need someone to blame.
 

mbonwick

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I'm not saying for Heathrow to cease being a hub airport, just that there should be other alternatives to it.
 

Metroland

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The government was accused of using "fantasy economics" to justify the expansion of Heathrow airport this morning, as a row erupted over the true financial benefits of a third runway.

Critics argued that the economic case for expanding Britain's largest airport underestimates the environmental cost of adding a maximum of 220,000 flights a year at the west London site. The government's economic argument for expansion centres on a total net financial benefit of £5.5bn to the UK economy. But an economic thinktank slammed the alleged financial windfall, saying it used an excessively low estimate for the cost of the carbon dioxide emitted by the enlarged airport.

The Department for Transport (DfT) said that construction of a third runway would generate an additional 210m tonnes of carbon dioxide over the 70 years to 2080, which it priced at £2.8bn – the equivalent of £13.33 a tonne. A further cost of £2.5bn would be generated by non-C02 emissions, the DfT said today. Despite these costs, it said the net economic benefit over 70 years would be £5.5bn.

However, the New Economics Foundation said that this estimate did not reflect the fact that aviation emissions can be up to five times more damaging than CO2 emitted at ground level. The thinktank put the carbon cost, conservatively, at £70 a tonne - a level which is at the mid-range of government estimates on the social cost of carbon emissions on any development.

On an NEF calculation of £70 a tonne, the total emissions cost of climate impacts would rise to between £8bn and £20bn, over 70 years, and wipe out any economic benefits.

"You are talking about a highly carbon-intensive piece of infrastructure that might be finished at exactly the moment when global oil production is collapsing and its price is rocketing. The government's case is based on fantasy economics," said Andrew Simms, policy director at the thinktank, and head of its climate change programme.

According to a Dft document that underpined the Heathrow consultation, called UK Air Passenger Demand and CO2 forecasts, aviation will account for up to 29% of UK carbon dioxide emissions by 2050 if all other industries meet C02 reduction targets - implying that Heathrow alone will be one of the most expensive pieces of infrastructure in Britain in environmental terms.

The International Energy Agency predicted that global oil production would peak much earlier than expected in 2020 – the year that a third runway was scheduled to open. The airline industry growth projections used by the government are predicated on an oil price of between $53and $64 a barrel, which would help keep down ticket prices and boost air travel from 228 million people per year, to 465 million by 2030, according to the DfT.

"The oil price estimates are crazy numbers," said Simms. "By 2030, oil below $200 per barrel is going to be hopeful." Oil represents around a third of an airline's cost base and, when it reached a peak of $147 a barrel this summer, it drove most major airlines into loss-making positions while triggering the bankruptcy of more than 30 carriers worldwide.

Willie Walsh, chief executive of Heathrow's biggest customer, British Airways, told the Guardian in May that a high oil price would lead to rising fares across the industry, and would pose a serious threat to the ultra-cheap tickets sold by budget airlines, the fastest growing sector in the industry.

The government's economic case for expanding Heathrow argues that total economic benefits from a third runway will be £19.2bn in so-called "transport user benefits" such as lower fares and more freight traffic. The total includes an estimated £3bn boost in air passenger duty, whose inclusion has been criticised by the Conservative party, which argues that a tax transfers money from the private to the public sector but does not technically generate extra economic benefits.

A city commentator argued that the root of the business community's need for a third runway, to reduce delays at the world's busiest international airport, could be assuaged by cheaper means such as retiring take-off and landing slots as they become available.

"There could be a deal to be done that retires unprofitable routes and takes slots out of service. This would mean less traffic on the runway and that ought to promote reliability," said Douglas McNeill, an analyst at Blue Oar Securities. According to the DfT, reduced delays at Heathrow would generate financial benefits of at least £1.6bn to airlines and passengers. "If you are talking about spending £8bn but getting the most bang for your buck, in the short time scale there are alternatives that could be nothing like £8bn in cost. They also don't carry as much risk," he added.

Even backers of the third runway have argued that, in the short term, there are measures that can be taken to reduce delays and maintain competitiveness. Echoing the comments of McNeill, the London First business group has argued for a reduction in take-off slots at Heathrow.

The introduction of mixed-mode, a scheduling change that allows the existing runways to be used for take-offs and landings throughout the day, would have reduced delays without resulting in an increase in the 1,300 flights per day at the airport. However, Hoon surprised residents and airlines yesterday by blocking plans for mixed-mode after he was won over by arguments that it would have caused an intolerable increase in noise pollution.

Heathrow is one of the biggest single employers in London and the DfT argues that the number of indirect jobs created by the expansion will rise from 102,000 to 117,000, with thousands more construction jobs created by the building of the project. Heathrow alone employs around 63,000 people directly, but that number would fall to around 52,000 under a third runway due to "increased efficiency", the DfT admits.

The government has not included the economic boost from the indirect jobs in its calculation of economic benefits. CE Delft, an environmental consultancy, criticised warnings that failure to expand Heathrow would lead inevitably to wholesale job losses - caused by the atrophying of passenger demand. In a report commissioned by runway opponents, it argued: "If the aviation sector were to offer less employment, people would find jobs in other sectors, albeit at possibly slightly lower wages. Similarly, if consumers were unable to spend money on aviation, they would spend it in another sector."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jan/16/heathrow-third-runway
 

5872

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I doubt the midlands should be a hub, Heathrow is fine and they will be able to use 3 runways at once.


If you don't see the point mbonwick, get off ya todd and come down to these neck of the woods.
 

LilLoaf

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I not sure if i feel sorry for the residence of the village. IF the village is at the end of the runway (litrally at the end) then i will do nobody wants aircraft flying over their house 24/7 unless your a plain spotter. However if its a fair distance away then why are people complaining. I'll have a look at google maps when i get chance to see where the village is before i either agree or disagree with the residence.

With reguards to actually expanding the airport. My question is simple WHY? There other airports around London.

Why not build a new airport in one of the fields around the Newburry area. Its not that far away from London. London to Newburry can be done in an hour (he types confidently not really knowing where Newburry is) I remember passing through it before and there was lots of fields and open spaces. Perfect for an airport.
 

Metroland

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However if its a fair distance away then why are people complaining. I'll have a look at google maps when i get chance to see where the village is before i either agree or disagree with the residence. =

I think it was supposed to be 2 million people in London annoyed by noise if the third runway went ahead. Of course the alternative of HSR isn't going to be straightfoward, although there were no swampys protesting at the CTRL - plus new lines tend to be built in existing transport corridors. I'm sure land use will come up, so been doing a little research.

The 30 main airports in the UK take up 125km2 aprox, there are a further 419 airports, a lot of which are quite small aerodromes, but lets say on average they take 2 km2 (low estimate) then land take is 838 km2, making a total of 963km2. Railways (inc sidings) in the UK take 227.21km2 or 0.01% of land. [source http://www.eco-logica.co.uk/pdf/CPRELandTake.pdf source]. Roads take 2592.85 km2 or 1.15% of land.

The 400km line between London and Paris takes 400,000 meters x 10 meters = 4,000,000 m2 or 4 square km - a lot of which is in tunnels, but I guess the station areas are bigger. In all fairness if you add sidings and land for embankments and cuttings, it could be 2-3 times that figure. Heathrow is 12 square km and Paris CDG is 32.38 making a total of 44.38 km2.

'Railway installations in Belgium take up a total area of some 3,600 hectares, for 3,521 km of lines. The road network occupies 120,000 hectares for 146,000 km of roads, while airport infrastructures occupy 4,500 hectares.'

http://www.b-rail.be/corp/E/group/environment/advantages/space/index.php

http://www.railteam.co.uk/About-Railteam/Sustainable-Mobility
 
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yorkie

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...The airline industry growth projections used by the government are predicated on an oil price of between $53and $64 a barrel, which would help keep down ticket prices and boost air travel from 228 million people per year, to 465 million by 2030, according to the DfT....
The DfT make many funny assumptions.

They assume that our economy only consists of unlimited periods of growth. There are never any downturns. The credit crunch does not exist. Huge subsidies can be turned into huge premiums by simply putting fares up. The price of oil will be affordable even when the only oil left is difficult to extract. Low air fares will continue for the rest of eternity. Rail fares will always increase at a rate higher than inflation for the rest of eternity even if it means only the super rich can afford it; growth will still occur for some unexplainable reason. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...In all fairness if you add sidings and land for embankments and cuttings, it could be 2-3 times that figure...
True, but it's only a downside if you are looking at things like the cost of aquiring the land or loss of productivity on the land. But embankments and cuttings can be important 'wildlife corridors'. Obviously the land used by airports is not going to be good for wildlife. It's interesting to see how incredibly inefficient air travel is when it comes to land use!
mbionwick said:
And how do they propose to create this 200mph rail link? Seeing as 140mph was abandoned as unsafe..
How is 140mph unsafe? HS1 operates at 186mph! I think you're confusing the issue with Virgin's proposals for (just under) 140mph running on the Trent Valley, or the 140mph tests on the ECML using flashing greens. I wouldn't call the flashing greens "unsafe" - if they're "unsafe" then the entire road network is unsafe! But anyway those issues are related to legacy signalling systems. New high speed lines are designed for high speed therefore they have sophisticated signalling systems that can cope with those speeds.
 

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Runway 3 is an entirely preposterous idea! Internal flights need to be stopped and 'replacement' rail services should be improved to ease internal connections. Connect up the two London airports with EMA and BHX... problem solved?

Obviously it's not quite that easy, but that's basically the jist of what I'd propose.
 

Metroland

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Obviously the land used by airports is not going to be good for wildlife. It's interesting to see how incredibly inefficient air travel is when it comes to land use!

It could actually be worst than that, when you think the 12 lanes of the M25 near Heathrow are primarily because of the airport - this would come under secondary uses.

In fairness UK airports are quite small. King Fahd International Airport in Saudi Arabia is 780km2, a bigger area than Bahrain - remember the entire UK rail network is 227km square [source http://www.eco-logica.co.uk/pdf/CPRELandTake.pdf page 9) and the city of Manchester is 115km square, housing nearly 1/2 million people. [source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester ] Which means the city isn't as big as Denver international airport at 140km square! [source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_International_Airport ]

It has been levelled that road and rail require huge energy costs in construction and maintenance. But this ignores most of our rail network was built by hand and a lot of Victorian hardware is still evident - some of the track on some of the main lines is from the 60s, and on branch lines from the 30s. Very often capacity can be improved substantially by lengthening trains or improving pinch points like a flat junctions. Plus the fuel of many of the maintenance trains is internalised anyway, and if you think about it preserved railways would never get off the ground if these things were so dear in terms of fuel, material and manpower! Areas the size of large towns or cities covered in lights, masts, concrete, hangers and air conditioned terminals, often serviced by huge highways and tunnels bringing people in from distant locations such as airports are not a free lunch either. Heathrow employs 70,000 people, half the number of National Rail, many of the employees live distantly in the shires, who work anti-social hours were PT is not applicable or available.

If you want a road and rail comparison - roads tend to produce urban sprawl, where rail tends to produce a much tighter more efficient land use called 'smart growth' - which is a more human scale development encouraging walking. Because most of our towns and cities were developed before 1950 around rail and the horse, this is why we have such acute traffic problems. Though even car based development in the US is infamous for traffic jams.

If you consider the UK has 230 million air passengers, and there are 800 million air passengers in Europe, and the UK has 2.2 billion rail journeys alone (LUL, NR) certainly at least by passenger journeys rail is much, much more efficient in terms of land use. Waterloo handles far more passengers than Heathrow, has a city centre location. St Pancras International is designed to handle as many people as Gatwick, yet on a tiny footprint in central London. And I don't recall 2 million people complaining about the noise!

This is not to say air and road are bad or not useful (a rather silly hyperbole argument made against anyone that points out downsides - there are downsides of rail too) that just isn't the case. But some transport applications are more suited to rail, which is good at moving lots of passengers and freight at high speeds in the 10-400 mile range.

I guess there is wider questions such as should we be encouraging long distance travel patterns? And one could apply that to high speed rail and most certainly air. A lot of air traffic is to service people with second homes and 34% of passengers at Heathrow are transit passengers - many of whom do not set foot in the UK proper, they are merely changing planes.

I'm not all that convinced we should be encouraging globalisation in the sense of giving multi-national corporations competitive advantage (I guess the argument is if we don't, others will - this seem akin to me as these companies holding the worlds people to ransom). Some of these companies tend to operate sweat shops, where the rules are more lax. Others manipulate the markets and monopolise them. Further more, some drive down wages, prices (for example food prices which leads to factory farming and cruelty to animals) or move jobs abroad. They also arguably destroy tradition and cultures, or buy patents locking people leading unfair deals or stifling competition. Large companies are also very heavily involved in political lobbying, which distorts decision making. Its very difficult for new start ups to compete with the buying power of large companies - which leads to less choice and job prospects. There are some advantages like cheaper prices, but this has to be set against our throwaway economy. Should we be striving for a new sort of economies that encourages smaller scale business, protection of people and animals, valuing things not just through price?

The credit crunch has shown the weakness of internationalisation and centralisation.

But could we trade abroad? Of course! 95% of freight in by ship in any case, and anyone can start up a company on the internet with substantial sales abroad. The internet is much more of a social leveller in any case.

The downside of HSR, at least in the UK, is cost. Land prices are expensive and compensation and planning is difficult. But its worth noting BAs revenue alone is £8.5 billion, 3 billion more than national rail's passenger ticket revenue to maintain a 10,000 mile network with thousands of stations. HSR generally makes money although would require more substantial input initially from tax payers in the UK. But remember, the money is spent in providing jobs and is spent in the economy anyway and there are lots of benefits such as narrowing the north/south divide. Very often airport expansion encourages foreign tourism (which isn't necessarily a bad thing!) which takes money out of the UK and is spent abroad. Eurostar has the nearest balance, where the people coming in from abroad nearly match the people going abroad. Most airports see substantial outbound tourism and little incoming tourism (often the ratio is 2:1) and are used by the better off.

Its only not to say air travel couldn't improve, larger planes to longer distance destinations using slots at major airports is much more efficient. And if there were more direct flights from regional airports, instead of hub and spoke, it would reduce 'kiss and fly' car journeys which tend to block up roads and reduce journey times abroad to destinations air is really good at (generally most over 4-500 miles).
 
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anthony263

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Persoannlly why dont they divert more flights into other airporrts in teh uk, rather than increase congestion @ heathrow.

Bristish airways have a maintence facility at Cardiff, and that airport has a lot of spare capacity for a few more flights and since there are not too many villiages close to it like heathrow then this will mean that it may be easier to expand.

I suspect that we will see high speed lines in the uk sooner or later and besides why are the airlines complaining, take a look at air france they are looking at running a joint open acess service between Paris/Brussels & St Pancras, so if they do get the go ahead, they surely some of the air lines could do similar things.
 

mbonwick

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How is 140mph unsafe? HS1 operates at 186mph! I think you're confusing the issue with Virgin's proposals for (just under) 140mph running on the Trent Valley, or the 140mph tests on the ECML using flashing greens. I wouldn't call the flashing greens "unsafe" - if they're "unsafe" then the entire road network is unsafe! But anyway those issues are related to legacy signalling systems. New high speed lines are designed for high speed therefore they have sophisticated signalling systems that can cope with those speeds.

I was referring to the ECML, yes. I wouldn't say they were unsafe, bad choice of words. More impractial I guess


I doubt the midlands should be a hub, Heathrow is fine and they will be able to use 3 runways at once.


If you don't see the point mbonwick, get off ya todd and come down to these neck of the woods.


The use of only 2 runways at once comes from a plane enthusiast friend whos dad is high up in the aviation industry.

I don't see the point of expanding an airport and flattening the villages around it.

I've been to London and Heathrow ta. Didn't see the point at all. Transport always overcrowed, etc etc
 

Metroland

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In 1991 16 per cent of Heathrow’s passengers switched from one international flight to another. By 2006 the proportion had risen to 26 per cent and is forecast to rise to 31 per cent by 2010. Norman Baker, the Liberal Democrat transport spokesman, said: “These are devastating figures which show that the third runway, for all its massive cost and environmental damage, is being built to help international transfer passengers who never leave the airport. If the number were reduced, we wouldn’t need a new runway and we would have more space at Heathrow for people from this country. With ever-increasing demand from British passengers to use Heathrow, we don’t need foreign transfer passengers to make routes viable. They are there simply to satisfy the greed of BA and BAA [the Spanish-owned airport operator].”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3926496.ece

Hmn, sounds like a good case to me for having direct flights from regional airports. They say some are uneconomic (despite the profits being made) but I reckon they could do a deal and drop APD on those direct flights as they are more beneficial for the rest of the UK.

The airlines moan there is inadequate rail links so it has to be hub, which to my mind just strengthens the case of proper integration and HSR with through ticketing. Exactly what is happening in Europe.
 
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j0hn0

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I live at the end of one of Schiphols 5 runways and I hardly hear anything. Also, there are planes flying over my office all day yet I don't hear anything.

I really don't buy the CO2 argument for many many reasons, but that's a different topic.

All i would say is that Heathrow is tiny considering it's strategic importance. Just zoom in on google earth and see how crowded everything is in the middle of those 2 runways. Go to Schiphol or Frankfurt and everything is just so much better organised and positioned.

You may remember that a whole new airport was proposed between Rugby and Coventry, someone remind me what happened to that?

People just need something to moan about, I am staggered at the people who have formed committees. MD of Climate Change affects us all and Chief Exec of save the whales blah blah blah.

Get a proper job, jeez <D
 

Death

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Sat at the control desk of 370666...
Personally I'm strongly opposed to the idea of a third runway at Heathrow, and - Once I get the time to do so - I'll be writing a very clear letter on that point to Parlament, citing the fact that MPs are supposed to take the views of the general public into consideration on any issue like this...And that their going over our heads like this just because they are "ministers" is simply bang out of order, IMO. <(

It's interesting to note that this proposal comes just after Farnborough Airport have started a public consultation for increasing their yearly movement allowance, and that's another proposal that I'm opposed to - Especially as Blackbushe (About three miles up the road) can easily accommodate the same types of aircraft with much less environmental impact and risk to the public. On a plus side though - Unlike the Government with regards to Heathrow - At least TAG Farnborough have had the decency to ask the general public for their views beforehand. 8)

One of my biggest fears with the Heathrow expansion though is what it may inevitably lead to. If permission is granted for a third runway, how long before runways 4-6 are requested as well? In addition - Given that Crude-oil/Kerosene supplies will only last another ten years or so - The whole idea of increasing airport capacity at all is pointless IMO. <(
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Personally: If I was in charge of Britain's air infrastructure, I would close down all of the existing airports like Heathrow to commercial passenger traffic and have a single 4-6 runway "super airport" constructed on a brownfield site located as far away as possible from populated and environmentally sensitive areas. This airport would assume the current roles of LHR/LGW - As eastern termini for the Transatlantic link, and waypoint termini for flights to the Middle/Far East - And would become a central hub linking the Americas, Europe, Scandanavia, Middle/Far East, Asia Minor, Africa and Australasia.
Passengers would be discouraged from using the airport for short journeys (I.E: To Berlin or Moscow) that could easily be done by rail, and the airport would also feature a large international rail terminal with regular departures to points throughout Europe. :)

Links with "existing" airports would be maintained through the installation of an XHSR network - Funded via airport taxes and thus "complimentary" for anyone using the airport - Allowing people to still access air networks from existing locations such as Heathrow and Stanstead with no additional transport issues. Flying from the old LHR? Simply jump on the shuttle provided and ye'll be at the new "Super Airport" (Ideally located in the industrialised Midlands) in under fifteen minutes, with check-in facilities provided onboard for passenger convenience and queue reduction. 8)
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And how do they propose to create this 200mph rail link? Seeing as 140mph was abandoned as unsafe..
Witchcraft
If it'll be 200mph then it will have to be a new line.
Maybe not...If anyone from the DaFT reads this board regularly (We've got MBonwick already! 8)) then they'll have already seen my numerous postings concerning 12,500mph XHSR over existing infrastructure. :shock::D

Hmmm...I'd best keep an eye on my e-mail and an ear on the telephone, methinks... :lol:<D
 

j0hn0

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interesting, your second point alludes to Boris Johnsons idea of a Thames estuary airport, a proposal similar to the Rugby one.

But with people valuing the life of animals over themselves, do you think that the destruction of wildlife in a brownfield site is better than that of relocating a few families who already live next door to one of the worlds busiest airports?

I wish this could be judged dispassionately.
 
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