Heathrow Express travellers defecting to Elizabeth line

[bicbasher]

Since the EL opened to Heathrow, it's become the most viable option from Forest Hill over Gatwick which no longer has a direct service to East Croydon (except 2tpd) to change for fast services to Gatwick Airport.

A simple change at Whitechapel with lift access from the Overground platforms to the EL for Heathrow is much easier than changing at Norwood Junction and East Croydon.

Heathrow wasn't really an option using rail previously from here unless you fancy shifting heavy luggage at Canada Water for the Jubilee and then Green Park for the Piccadilly.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

When the choice was between HEX and the Piccadilly Line then HEX was usually a no-brainer. But with Crossrail it has definitely changed.

Yep.... When the choice was between HEX and the Piccadilly line, I always took the Piccadilly line because it was so much cheaper!

Or was that not what you were thinking?

 

[railfan99]

Good. What a rip off. Only to be beaten in Europe by the Arlanda Express for rip-off prices.

Agree: on my four visits thus far to the UK, I used it once one way and that was only because someone else paid. Overpriced to bu----y.

The Piccadilly TfL line was my choice on two (and a half) return trips while last year the EL would have been my choice, but it was suspended due to signalling problems, so TfL came to the rescue.

 

[Basil Jet]

Could it become a fast service to Paddington and Canary Wharf?

No, but about twenty five years ago a non-stop service from Heathrow to St Pancras (via Dudding Hill Line) was mooted, and that might still make sense.

Maybe non-stop to Waterloo via a southern link might make sense.

 

[coppercapped]

Hex is an open access operator it wasn't subject to franchising the first service between london Paddington and langley provided by london transport or its predecessor organisations was in 1883 tell me how many services ran to the airport then?

Oh dear, where to begin?

The station at Langley was opened by the Great Western Railway in 1845, some seven years after the GWR was opened and the station at Hayes (and Harlington) was opened around 1864. By no stretch of the imagination could the GWR be described as a predecessor organisation to the UndergrounD/LPTB/LTE/LTB/TfL etc.

What you may have in mind is the short-lived service run by the District Railway between Mansion House and Windsor between 1883 and 1885. In this sense the District Railway was a direct predecessor to TfL but it did not own the GWR's tracks.

You may want to think that HEx is an open access operator - but it is not. Open Access Operators are a creation of the Railways Act 1993 and the Heathrow Express rail link predates this Act, the Heathrow Express Railway Act of 1991. Acts of Parliament are not retrospective so HEx cannot be classified as 'open access'. I will point out again that BAA/HAL spent millions of its own money in building the track, tunnels and stations from the tunnel portal to the airport, this is not the modus operandi of subsequent Open Access operators working under the terms of the 1993 Act and this sets HEx apart.

I have also previously pointed out that if BAA/HAL had not built the Heathrow airport branch, then there would be no discussion at all about whether in the future Crossrail will be the death of HEx or not as Crossrail would have run only on the GWR's route to Slough, possibly Maidenhead, as there would not have been sufficient state funding to have built the Heathrow branch and stations as well as the central core tunnels.

To your last, rather bizarre, point: powered manned flight in heavier-than-air machines started with the Wright brothers on 17 December 1903. I can find no reference to an airport at Heathrow in 1883.

 

[matt_world2004]

Oh dear, where to begin?

The station at Langley was opened by the Great Western Railway in 1845, some seven years after the GWR was opened. By no stretch of the imagination could the GWR be described as a predecessor organisation to the UndergrounD/LPTB/LTE/LTB/TfL etc.

What you may have in mind is the short-lived service run by the District Railway between Mansion House and Windsor between 1883 and 1885. In this sense the District Railway was a direct predecessor to TfL but it did not own the GWR's tracks.

You may want to think that HEx is an open access operator - but it is not. Open Access Operators are a creation of the Railways Act 1993 and the Heathrow Express rail link predates this Act. Acts of Parliament are not retrospective so HEx cannot be classified as 'open access'. I will point out again that BAA/HAL spent millions of its own money in building the track, tunnels and stations from the tunnel portal to the airport, this is not the modus operandi of subsequent Open Access operators working under the terms of the 1993 Act and sets HEx apart.

I have also previously pointed out that if BAA/HAL had not built the Heathrow airport branch, then there would be no discussion at all about whether in the future Crossrail will be the death of HEx or not as Crossrail would have run only on the GWR's route to Slough, possibly Maidenhead, as there would not have been sufficient state funding to have built the Heathrow branch and stations as well as the central core tunnels.

To your last, rather bizarre, point: powered manned flight in heavier-than-air machines started with the Wright brothers on 17 December 1903. I can find no reference to an airport at Heathrow in 1883.

The HEX didn't however start until 1998 and was not subject to franchising it is an open access operator between Paddington and Heathrow Junction, National rail ticketing is not valid on the Heathrow express

 

[Thirteen]

As long as HEX is contributing to Heathrow's coffers then I don't see them ever getting rid of it and that's also true for the other airlines express services.

 

[Watershed]

Oh dear, where to begin?

The station at Langley was opened by the Great Western Railway in 1845, some seven years after the GWR was opened. By no stretch of the imagination could the GWR be described as a predecessor organisation to the UndergrounD/LPTB/LTE/LTB/TfL etc.

What you may have in mind is the short-lived service run by the District Railway between Mansion House and Windsor between 1883 and 1885. In this sense the District Railway was a direct predecessor to TfL but it did not own the GWR's tracks.

You may want to think that HEx is an open access operator - but it is not. Open Access Operators are a creation of the Railways Act 1993 and the Heathrow Express rail link predates this Act. Acts of Parliament are not retrospective so HEx cannot be classified as 'open access'. I will point out again that BAA/HAL spent millions of its own money in building the track, tunnels and stations from the tunnel portal to the airport, this is not the modus operandi of subsequent Open Access operators working under the terms of the 1993 Act and sets HEx apart.

I have also previously pointed out that if BAA/HAL had not built the Heathrow airport branch, then there would be no discussion at all about whether in the future Crossrail will be the death of HEx or not as Crossrail would have run only on the GWR's route to Slough, possibly Maidenhead, as there would not have been sufficient state funding to have built the Heathrow branch and stations as well as the central core tunnels.

To your last, rather bizarre, point: powered manned flight in heavier-than-air machines started with the Wright brothers on 17 December 1903. I can find no reference to an airport at Heathrow in 1883.

The fact that the physical railway forming the Heathrow branch was built under an Act of Parliament predating the Railways Act 1993 has no bearing on whether Heathrow Express is an OAO. The line between Doncaster and Pontefract via Haywood was built long before John Major was even a twinkle in his father's eye, yet it is only served by OAOs (Grand Central and some of the FOCs). Clearly, that doesn't stop GC from being an OAO.

 

[ELfan]

Some Elizabeth Line services for Heathrow skip Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line, they can be labeled as fast services

Minor correction but no Heathrow trains skip West Ealing. From May some T5 trains will skip Southall, Hanwell and Acton.

 

[island]

The HEX didn't however start until 1998 and was not subject to franchising it is an open access operator between Paddington and Heathrow Junction, National rail ticketing is not valid on the Heathrow express

I have regularly used National Rail tickets on the Heathrow Express. Try again.

 

[Taunton]

I will point out again that BAA/HAL spent millions of its own money in building the track, tunnels and stations from the tunnel portal to the airport,

However the cost of building the line from the tunnel portal into the airport was added into the airport company's Asset Base. Charges to airlines at the airport are regulated (because it is an effective monopoly) by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to give a predetermined rate of return on their asset base. So charges to airlines were increased from the early 1990s to, among other things, pay for this. When Heathrow tried to impose high charges for Crossrail trains (I think something like £500 per train was once proposed) they were caught out at "double dipping" for recovering those historic costs. The airlines, and ultimately their passengers, have paid off these costs over the last 25 years; it must be fully depreciated by now.

Para 4.11 and elsewhere in this document from the DfT and the ORR refers :

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/charging-framework-consultation-dft.pdf

 

[coppercapped]

The HEX didn't however start until 1998 and was not subject to franchising it is an open access operator between Paddington and Heathrow Junction, National rail ticketing is not valid on the Heathrow express

The fact that the physical railway forming the Heathrow branch was built under an Act of Parliament predating the Railways Act 1993 has no bearing on whether Heathrow Express is an OAO. The line between Doncaster and Pontefract via Haywood was built long before John Major was even a twinkle in his father's eye, yet it is only served by OAOs (Grand Central and some of the FOCs). Clearly, that doesn't stop GC from being an OAO.

I really don't know why this matter seems to be so important but regards of what people may like to think HEx is not an Open Access operator under the terms of the Railways Act 1993. Statutory Instrument 574 of 1994, the Railways (Heathrow Express) (Exemptions) Order 1994, meant that HEx did not need a franchise agreement to run on its own network:

Franchise exemption
4.—(1) Exemption from designation under section 23(1) of the 1993 Act (designation of passenger services as eligible for franchising) is granted to any person who provides a railway passenger service on any railway line comprised in an exempt network, in respect of that service.
(2) The exemption granted in paragraph (1) above shall continue in force until the end of a period of thirty years beginning with the relevant day.

The agreement to run trains off its private network on BR's metals to Paddington was made between BR and BAA/HAL prior to the Railways Act 1993 and this agreement continued. That HEx runs trains between the tunnel portal and Paddington does not make it an Open Access operator as it was not subject to any approval process run by the Rail Regulator or the Office for Rail Regulation or the Office for Rail and Road (or whatever it's called this week) for paths or show it was not abstracting revenue from a franchised operator.

HEx is simply using running rights on the main line railway under an agreement made before the 1993 Act. No more and no less.

If people want to debate this issue, then at least get the terminology right so everyone knows what is being discussed.

 

[matt_world2004]

I have regularly used National Rail tickets on the Heathrow Express. Try again.

So I can use a zone 1-6 travelcard on it , cool

 

[coppercapped]

However the cost of building the line from the tunnel portal into the airport was added into the airport company's Asset Base. Charges to airlines at the airport are regulated (because it is an effective monopoly) by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to give a predetermined rate of return on their asset base. So charges to airlines were increased from the early 1990s to, among other things, pay for this. When Heathrow tried to impose high charges for Crossrail trains (I think something like £500 per train was once proposed) they were caught out at "double dipping" for recovering those historic costs. The airlines, and ultimately their passengers, have paid off these costs over the last 25 years; it must be fully depreciated by now.

Para 4.11 and elsewhere in this document from the DfT and the ORR refers :

As a matter of interest how does this square with HAL's imposition of a 'drop-off' charge for people arriving by car? I would suspect that the cost of the roads within the airport boundary have also been included in the airport's regulatory asset base and have been paid for.

 

[greatkingrat]

The Heathrow Airport Accessible Travel Policy says at the beginning

Heathrow Express (HEx) is an airport rail link which operates between Heathrow Airport and London Paddington Train Station. We are an Open Access Train Operator which means we are non-franchised and non-subsidised, and we have been running since 1998.

 

[coppercapped]

The Heathrow Airport Accessible Travel Policy says at the beginning

Heathrow Express (HEx) is an airport rail link which operates between Heathrow Airport and London Paddington Train Station. We are an Open Access Train Operator which means we are non-franchised and non-subsidised, and we have been running since 1998.

Two can play at that game!

A later web page, dated 2023, to be found at https://www.heathrowexpress.com/about-us#/ states:

About Us

Heathrow Express is a non-franchised, non-subsidised private rail company which runs up to 150 services a day between London Paddington and Heathrow Airport.

Nothing about 'open access'!

 

[scotrail158713]

So I can use a zone 1-6 travelcard on it , cool

I think "certain National Rail tickets are valid" is a better way of putting it - obviously not all tickets are

 

[matt_world2004]

Two can play at that game!

A later web page, dated 2023, to be found at https://www.heathrowexpress.com/about-us#/ states:



Nothing about 'open access'!

The absence of it mentioning something doesn't mean it cannot be true. Being an open access and a private company are not mutually exclusive

I think "certain National Rail tickets are valid" is a better way of putting it - obviously not all tickets are

You can't use Heathrow express tickets on the Elizabeth line either and that is a national rail service.

You are also not subject to the national rail conditions of travel on the Heathrow express

 

[Mojo]

Yep.... When the choice was between HEX and the Piccadilly line, I always took the Piccadilly line because it was so much cheaper!

Or was that not what you were thinking?

The speed of the Piccadilly line is also under-estimated by many, for instance if you’re going from Terminal 123 to Hyde Park Corner or any stations west of, the journey time of the Piccadilly line is faster than Heathrow Express to Paddington and a LU connection.

As a matter of interest how does this square with HAL's imposition of a 'drop-off' charge for people arriving by car? I would suspect that the cost of the roads within the airport boundary have also been included in the airport's regulatory asset base and have been paid for.

Unlike the railway infrastructure which is regulated by the ORR, the road infrastructure is not regulated to the same manner and airports are free to charge a drop off/pick up fee subject to other requirements such as adequate signage and competition regulations.

The CAA compiles an annual list of such fees and as can be seen from the document, Heathrow fees are not at all that unusual, indeed it was one of the last airports to implement a fee, and it still provides a free alternative (although I personally prefer to get a drop off outside Pod Parking when using T5).

 

[Dave W]

A little tangential I admit, but I have lived near Manor House and Finsbury Park for almost 10 years, and in all the time I've flown from Heathrow I've just used the Piccadilly Line. With a heavy suitcase, getting on down the front or back of a Picc train and just sitting all the way to the other end is simplest and least hassle, even though it takes over an hour.

The only time I've used anything else for the airport is when I was travelling for work to a conference in one of the many airport hotels - time was of the essence and, as I was claiming the fare back, money was not.

 

[43066]

but since the vast majority of flights into Heathrow will have some form of “Business” class

Virgin and BA(?) business class used to offer limo pickup to the passengers home address (not sure whether this has survived Covid), and those living in the Thames Valley of south west to north west of London might well take a cab, so the train will appeal to the narrower demographic of business class passengers who live in areas they can get to more easily by train from the airport, or those who are heading straight to central London/Canary Wharf.

The speed of the Piccadilly line is also under-estimated by many, for instance if you’re going from Terminal 123 to Hyde Park Corner or any stations west of, the journey time of the Piccadilly line is faster than Heathrow Express to Paddington and a LU connection.

Absolutely. From the southeast London direction it was often just as easy to take the tube the whole way (Jubilee to Green Park, then the Picc), versus going to Paddington and then changing for the HEX/Connect.

Nowadays the same journey might well be Jubilee to Bond St and straight onto the EL.

 

[alf]

I used to travel to & from Heathrow & Sydney at least twice a year

On the last lap from Heathrow to Central London I usually took the Piccadilly.
It carried me straight to my London destination, but the main point was that I was so exhausted flying through so many time zones & stopping in the Middle East that I dozed most the way, so the extra 15 mins made no difference.

The lower tube cost also appealed to my frugal side & so did not having to change trains & dragging luggage around which would happen with HeX.

 

[Watershed]

I really don't know why this matter seems to be so important but regards of what people may like to think HEx is not an Open Access operator under the terms of the Railways Act 1993. Statutory Instrument 574 of 1994, the Railways (Heathrow Express) (Exemptions) Order 1994, meant that HEx did not need a franchise agreement to run on its own network:


The agreement to run trains off its private network on BR's metals to Paddington was made between BR and BAA/HAL prior to the Railways Act 1993 and this agreement continued. That HEx runs trains between the tunnel portal and Paddington does not make it an Open Access operator as it was not subject to any approval process run by the Rail Regulator or the Office for Rail Regulation or the Office for Rail and Road (or whatever it's called this week) for paths or show it was not abstracting revenue from a franchised operator.

HEx is simply using running rights on the main line railway under an agreement made before the 1993 Act. No more and no less.

If people want to debate this issue, then at least get the terminology right so everyone knows what is being discussed.

Again, you are mistaken. The fact that they are exempt from being franchised makes them, by definition, an open access operator!

The original 1993 agreement is also long gone. HEx now operates under more recent Track Access Agreements, just like any other operator that runs on Network Rail.

You can't use Heathrow express tickets on the Elizabeth line either and that is a national rail service.

You can't use tickets issued by Heathrow Express, or National Rail issued tickets routed Heathrow Express only on the Elizabeth line. But there are tickets - e.g. Any Permitted National Rail issued tickets - which are valid on both.

In summary, some National Rail tickets are valid on Heathrow Express, some aren't. The fact that a Travelcard isn't valid is neither here nor there as Travelcards also aren't valid on Southeastern between St Pancras and Stratford Internatonal.

Being an open access and a private company are not mutually exclusive

Indeed. In fact, every open access operator happens to be a private company.

 

[matt_world2004]

Again, you are mistaken. The fact that they are exempt from being franchised makes them, by definition, an open access operator!

The original 1993 agreement is also long gone. HEx now operates under more recent Track Access Agreements, just like any other operator that runs on Network Rail.


You can't use tickets issued by Heathrow Express, or National Rail issued tickets routed Heathrow Express only on the Elizabeth line. But there are tickets - e.g. Any Permitted National Rail issued tickets - which are valid on both.

In summary, some National Rail tickets are valid on Heathrow Express, some aren't. The fact that a Travelcard isn't valid is neither here nor there as Travelcards also aren't valid on Southeastern between St Pancras and Stratford Internatonal.


Indeed. In fact, every open access operator happens to be a private company.

Is there an any permitted national rail ticket between Heathrow and London Paddington. I Know that a Heathrow express -Zone 1-6 is valid on both the Elizabeth line and hex but can't think of any other

 

[Gaelan]

Is there an any permitted national rail ticket between Heathrow and London Paddington. I Know that a Heathrow express -Zone 1-6 is valid on both the Elizabeth line and hex but can't think of any other

Not directly, but, say, a Dundee to Heathrow Rail is (only) available as Any Permitted.

 

[najaB]

And the Edinburgh tram to the airport? And the new Luton Airport thingy?

Why should people have to pay a premium just because they happen to be going to an airport anyway?

Just get the tram to the Park and Ride and walk the rest of the way. Takes ten minutes and saves £5.50(?).

 

[coppercapped]

Again, you are mistaken. The fact that they are exempt from being franchised makes them, by definition, an open access operator!

The original 1993 agreement is also long gone. HEx now operates under more recent Track Access Agreements, just like any other operator that runs on Network Rail.

Did HEx have to go through an inquiry with the ORR about the approval of the number and frequency of train paths between Paddington and the airport tunnel portal and show that it was not abstracting excessive income from the incumbent franchise holder or holders in the same way that Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo had to in order to be able to conclude a track access agreement?

I cannot recall hearing or reading about any such hearings - I'm not saying that they didn't happen but if anyone can point me to a record of such hearings I would be grateful.

Or, just possibly, are the current track access agreements essentially the original BAA-BR agreements as modified to conform with current legal requirements?

 

[Watershed]

Did HEx have to go through an inquiry with the ORR about the approval of the number and frequency of train paths between Paddington and the airport tunnel portal and show that it was not abstracting excessive income from the incumbent franchise holder or holders in the same way that Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo had to in order to be able to conclude a track access agreement?

I cannot recall hearing or reading about any such hearings - I'm not saying that they didn't happen but if anyone can point me to a record of such hearings I would be grateful.

Or, just possibly, are the current track access agreements essentially the original BAA-BR agreements as modified to conform with current legal requirements?

There isn't a hearing for every Track Access Agreement application - only those which are contentious require a hearing.

The latest version of the TAA that I can find online clearly states that:

WHEREAS:
(A) Network Rail is the owner of the Network; and
(B) Network Rail has been directed by ORR to grant to the Train Operator permission to use certain track comprised in the Network on the terms and conditions of this contract which rights and obligations under this contract shall be distinct from and in addition to any rights which the Train Operator may have or obligations to which the Train Operator may be subject under the Unregulated Agreement.

(the Unregulated Agreement is the 1993 BAA-BR agreement you refer to)

So HEx operate under a TAA that is completely separate from the 1993 agreement.

Again, I'm struggling to see why you think that HEx falls into some third category. There are only franchised and open access operators. HEx is certainly an unusual kind of OAO in partially running over infrastructure owned and built by their parent company, but that doesn't stop them from being an OAO.

 

[RailExplorer]

Won't happen at the moment, but in my opinion, Elizabeth Line should take over the HEX paths and run non stop to Paddington and directly into the COS - and then all stations to Abbey Wood / Shenfield.

Edit: just realised it's been mentioned already. Apologies.

 

[Mag_seven]

We seem to have reached a point now where there is nothing new to discuss.

If anyone has any suggestions as to what should happen to Heathrow Express in the light of the Elizabeth Line opening then they are welcome to contribute to this thread:

Should Heathrow Express be abolished, to enable more Crossrail trains to Terminal 5?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-service-pattern-from-may-2023.242908/ Worth noting that the issue for Terminal 5 is that it's served by Heathrow Express. We're getting into crayonista territory, but I'd very much be in favour of abolishing HX and...

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