Heathrow Express use continuing to decline

[Djgr]

Define scam. Are people not getting what they paid for?

I think I would feel more comfortable if travellers arriving at Heathrow had easily accessible, comprehensive and unbiased information about the public transport alternatives for getting into Central London.

But when you hear HEX resorting to selling agents flogging their (and only their) tickets on the concourse, it feels like people standing outside restaurants in overseas tourist resorts, where their successful persuasion to get you into the restaurant is inevitably followed by disappointment and a feeling of having been conned.

 

[43066]

I think I would feel more comfortable if travellers arriving at Heathrow had easily accessible, comprehensive and unbiased information about the public transport alternatives for getting into Central London.

Surely the vast majority of them have smartphones and internet access? It takes all of five seconds to google routes into London from Heathrow.

 

[signed]

I think I would feel more comfortable if travellers arriving at Heathrow had easily accessible, comprehensive and unbiased information about the public transport alternatives for getting into Central London.

Most of the people that would be the target audience for HX just take a cab, like most Americans.

The rest, the more leisure travellers that can't poney up the cab fare, would for sure have done their research on what to do.

 

[Egg Centric]

Most of the people that would be the target audience for HX just take a cab, like most Americans.

The rest, the more leisure travellers that can't poney up the cab fare, would for sure have done their research on what to do.

Then what are all the "touts" doing at Heathrow? I'd say their existence is pretty good evidence that they are effective.

 

[signed]

Then what are all the "touts" doing at Heathrow? I'd say their existence is pretty good evidence that they are effective.

Some people indeed may get bit by those indeed. But that's all the same with the other tourist traps in London.

 

[crablab]

Railair from Reading also takes you right to/from the central terminals T2 and T3. The HEx station is quite a long way from those and deep underground too.

Another vote for the RailAir. From Reading (and Guildford) it's significantly quicker & cheaper than the rail alternatives and much more convenient. It's essentially a scheduled taxi to the airport - drop off and pick up right outside the terminal.

It also runs 24/7, including on Christmas Day and Boxing Day (unlike the railway) and without strike action. I used it to get in and out of London on strike days, if I'd missed the last 701/702 in the evening. I even used it to catch a Eurostar, after GWR cancelled early trains from the timetable and refused to reroute me.

It's also well used by staff (Heathrow, aircrew & suppliers) who can get a season ticket. I believe they are also eligible for discounts?

 

[43066]

Then what are all the "touts" doing at Heathrow? I'd say their existence is pretty good evidence that they are effective.

Some people indeed may get bit by those indeed. But that's all the same with the other tourist traps in London.

I’m not keen on high pressure sales tactics, and if there’s evidence that the “touts” are actually misleading people then that’s most definitely a problem. But otherwise I don’t really see how it’s any different from various other “sales” situations people will encounter.

It certainly used to be the case that airline cabin crew offered HEX fares on inbound flights (does that still happen?). They didn’t go out of their way to highlight the other possibilities, but I wouldn’t describe that as a con as such, it’s just one option they’re promoting.

With smartphones and cheap data allowances it has literally never been easier to research alternatives than it is today.

 

[Djgr]

Some people indeed may get bit by those indeed. But that's all the same with the other tourist traps in London.

which, of course, is no justification

 

[embers25]

Another vote for the RailAir. From Reading (and Guildford) it's significantly quicker & cheaper than the rail alternatives and much more convenient. It's essentially a scheduled taxi to the airport - drop off and pick up right outside the terminal.

It also runs 24/7, including on Christmas Day and Boxing Day (unlike the railway) and without strike action. I used it to get in and out of London on strike days, if I'd missed the last 701/702 in the evening. I even used it to catch a Eurostar, after GWR cancelled early trains from the timetable and refused to reroute me.

It's also well used by staff (Heathrow, aircrew & suppliers) who can get a season ticket. I believe they are also eligible for discounts?

Railair from Reading is NOT significantly cheaper at all at £24 single and £36 return. The train via Hayes is £15.30 on contactless one way off peak and £21.70 peak.
Speed wise the coach is also not significantly quicker, and is actually usually slower to all but T5, although doesn't involve changing and will drop you nearer.

Train is 47-52 mins every 15 mins from Reading via Hayes to T2/3 and 45 mins every 30 mins to Reading via Hayes&Harlingotn. Using HEX it can take less than 40 mins every 15 mins though will cost more although advances bring that down. Railair runs every 20-30 mins and takes circa 50 mins to T2 and circa 60 mins to T3 and over 60 mins from both returning to Reading, plus the faff of fighting through Reading to reach the lounge.

Don't get me wrong HEX is a vastly overpriced service taking up valuable line space....

Moderator note: speculative discussion moved to

Better rail connection to Heathrow.

I think we can all agree that rail connections to Heathrow could be improved. Currently all trains serving Heathrow all go to Central London so here are my proposals: A. HS3 Paddington - Reading via OOC and Heathrow (any terminal). All GWR express trains will be diverted on this line which...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Zamalek]

Probably from a suburban station near Temple Meads. Of course it's an unfair comparison to take the coach journey time from somewhere in the city centre, and compare that to the train journey time from the suburbs.

Quoting timings from Montpelier railway station, which is the one closest to the Bus Station, and the same number of minute's walk from my house as the length of a bus-journey down to the Bus Station - so for me, at least, a pretty direct comparison.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Heathrow Express will have to work out what's novel about taking it as opposed to the Elizabeth line as there can't be many passengers who have Paddington as their final destination in London.

 

[cactustwirly]

Railair from Reading is NOT significantly cheaper at all at £24 single and £36 return. The train via Hayes is £15.30 on contactless one way off peak and £21.70 peak.
Speed wise the coach is also not significantly quicker, and is actually usually slower to all but T5, although doesn't involve changing and will drop you nearer.

Train is 47-52 mins every 15 mins from Reading via Hayes to T2/3 and 45 mins every 30 mins to Reading via Hayes&Harlingotn. Using HEX it can take less than 40 mins every 15 mins though will cost more although advances bring that down. Railair runs every 20-30 mins and takes circa 50 mins to T2 and circa 60 mins to T3 and over 60 mins from both returning to Reading, plus the faff of fighting through Reading to reach the lounge.

Don't get me wrong HEX is a vastly overpriced service taking up valuable line space. Until the western spur to Heathrow gets built (if it ever does), GWR should stop some trains at Hayes on the fast platforms (the Oxford, Didcot and Newbury ones maybe) to enable regular, fast connection to Heathrow and then Railair Reading could be removed for good. If a couple of mins extra to stop at Old Oak is fine, why isn't it fine to add a far more useful Hayes&Harlington stop.

The train to Hayes from Reading is only every 30 minutes and takes a good 45 minutes to reach Hayes

If you get a period return on the First bus app then it's much cheaper than buying a return on the day from the driver

 

[crablab]

Railair from Reading is NOT significantly cheaper at all at £24 single and £36 return. The train via Hayes is £15.30 on contactless one way off peak and £21.70 peak.

Which makes £30.60 off peak and £43.40 peak.
Whereas, the RailAir is Railcard discountable (the CPay fares you quote aren't) and comes out at £27 for a period return, with Railcard discount. That's essentially an Anytime.
The equivalent period Anytime return, with Railcard, is £34.20 (except it's not really, as the RailAir return is 90 days)

Speed wise the coach is also not significantly quicker, and is actually usually slower to all but T5, although doesn't involve changing and will drop you nearer.

This depends significantly on when you are travelling. The time to Heathrow on Boxing Day would have been infinite for me, since there are no trains.
Railair runs at least hourly (I think?) all the way through the night. No connections to worry about.

Perhaps I should have been clearer that I am mainly using it very early morning or late in the evening when either there are no trains or the connections are poor.
It's ~30-40 mins to T5 then.

As @cactustwirly says, the train to Hayes takes quite a while so I personally don't really even consider that as an option.

plus the faff of fighting through Reading to reach the lounge.

No faff required. I walk 10m from one bus stop to the other.
If you live in Reading it's very convenient.

 

[jfowkes]

Heathrow Express will have to work out what's novel about taking it as opposed to the Elizabeth line as there can't be many passengers who have Paddington as their final destination in London.

There is a difference. HEX has dedicated luggage space and is much closer to the taxi rank and to the Circle/H&C at Paddington. It's also faster if you are changing at Paddington anyway. And because it's a dedicated airport service, you only get other airline passengers on it. It probably appeals to a particular kind of person who doesn't like to share their space with the general public en masse.

Whether those are important enough for enough people to justify the extra cost is the debate of course.

 

[Djgr]

There is a difference. HEX has dedicated luggage space and is much closer to the taxi rank and to the Circle/H&C at Paddington. It's also faster if you are changing at Paddington anyway. And because it's a dedicated airport service, you only get other airline passengers on it. It probably appeals to a particular kind of person who doesn't like to share their space with the general public en masse.

Whether those are important enough for enough people to justify the extra cost is the debate of course.

and the linked debate is whether society can get better use from the HEX paths and rolling stock

 

[Topological]

and the linked debate is whether society can get better use from the HEX paths and rolling stock

and further relatedly, the inward investment in the UK attributable to Heathrow and the associated proportion which benefits from the HEX.

Given the lack of paths towards Reading, the HEX paths appear to be something of a moot point. The only other use would be more Elizabeth Line trains, and even that is questionable given freight use of the reliefs between Airport Junction and Acton. So a society benefit would need to account for costs of using the paths to do anything else once HEX has vacated them.

When there are EMUs sitting in sidings doing nothing, it is questionable whether the freed stock would get put to use. Maybe 2025 is the year EMUs start getting better utilised again.

HEX is something which does a job and no one is forced to use it. Given the constraints more informed posters have mentioned about Airport Junction to Reading, there seems little benefit to do doing anything different.

 

[jon0844]

But when you hear HEX resorting to selling agents flogging their (and only their) tickets on the concourse, it feels like people standing outside restaurants in overseas tourist resorts, where their successful persuasion to get you into the restaurant is inevitably followed by disappointment and a feeling of having been conned.

I agree about the people in the baggage hall trying to sell HEX tickets and profiling people to encourage to go first class, but I still don't think this is a scam. I certainly do some basic research before travelling abroad, and if I had planned to take the express train then I'd be quite happy to be able to get the tickets sorted while waiting for my suitcases. If not, I'd just politely say 'no thank you'.

It's quite likely some people do buy tickets that they might not if they saw the other options, but even then it's not really a scam as they did get what they paid for. It's not like they turn up at the platform and find out the tickets are half the price if bought from a machine and the seller had sold them at a premium to get their commission. And upselling (for first/business) is common everywhere on the planet these days.

 

[embers25]

The train to Hayes from Reading is only every 30 minutes and takes a good 45 minutes to reach Hayes

If you get a period return on the First bus app then it's much cheaper than buying a return on the day from the driver

Reading to Hayes is every 30 mins direct and every 30 mins changing at Maidenhead. For example 1512 changing at Maidenhead and Hayes arrives at Heathrow at 1559. 47 mins.

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading to Hayes is every 30 mins direct and every 30 mins changing at Maidenhead. For example 1512 changing at Maidenhead and Hayes arrives at Heathrow at 1559. 47 mins.

Are you really going to be changing trains with luggage Vs a direct coach with luggage storage in the hold

 

[crablab]

Reading to Hayes is every 30 mins direct and every 30 mins changing at Maidenhead. For example 1512 changing at Maidenhead and Hayes arrives at Heathrow at 1559. 47 mins.

I don't think this is correct. The fastest way from Reading to Heathrow is into Paddington and back out on HEX, which is even more expensive than the 'not via London' fares I quoted above.

I had to exclude HEX to generate the below itinerary using Trainsplit.

And 3 changes with luggage?

 

[embers25]

I don't think this is correct. The fastest way from Reading to Heathrow is into Paddington and back out on HEX, which is even more expensive than the 'not via London' fares I quoted above.

I had to exclude HEX to generate the below itinerary using Trainsplit.

And 3 changes with luggage?
View attachment 171995

I said train via Hayes is only quicker to T2/3 and T4 which it is, and so not sure why you chose T5 as a comparison . Also, your journey option is bizarre given the 1512 would have you in T5 for 1616 not 1625 is it claims! For some reason it can't select the actual trains between T2/3 and T5.


1459 arrives 1551 into T2/3 and 1557 into T4 change once at Hayes (so 52 and 58 mins respectively)
1512 arrives 1606 into T2/3 and 1612 into T4 change twice at Maidenhead and Hayes (so 52 and 58 mins respectively)

These two repeat both every 30 mins giving a 15 min service. The Maidenhead change is same platform, but I'll give you Hayes is a bridge/lift. However fighting the crowds through Reading station is far from easy.

RA1 at this time is only every 30 mins at 1457 and 1527 taking 52 or 53 mins to T2 and 61 mins to T3, T4 would require a change at T5 and even using the quicker local bus would take over an hour.

The other way T4 to Reading is 1445 arrive 1542 and every 30 mins with just one change at Hayes. T2/3 is 1455 arrive 1445 and every 30 mins (so 57 and 50 mins respectively). Railair is also every 30 mins at 1437 from T3 and 1440 from T2 arriving Reading at 1544 (so 67 and 64 mins respectively). Add 10-20 mins extra for T4.

So Railair is not quicker. at all, let alone significantly quicker, and is less frequent eastbound, except when trains don't run or to T5 where it wins. However, should it run at all, no. It's just a cash cow for First that justifies them not giving Hayes a better service from Reading and fleeces longer distance passengers. It can be cheaper, but only if both ways are in peak. If one way is off peak it's the same price and if both ways are off peak it's more expensive.

I give you the argument if you live in Reading, or soon near Winnersh, but for longer distance passengers it offers little and it isn't aimed at Reading locals, it's marketed for GWR longer distance passengers. If it's sole real purpose is as a local bus from Reading to Heathrow then it shouldn't charge such premium fares, just as the excellent 730/731 to Basingstoke doesn't.

From the new timetable on Jan 19 Railair becomes every 20 mins but gets even slower to Heathrow but speeds up slightly from Heathrow but is still slower than the train is from T2/3. The idea we are running Railair coaches along a route that has perfectly adequate rail services is ridiculous.

Lastly, advance fares to Heathrow via Hayes are often little more than Reading advances and massively undercut those that use the Railair, but obviously these aren't promoted by GWR who'd rather fleece people to justify to Railair.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I don't think the continuation of HEx is really in the state's interest.

I doubt the owners of the airport are really in much of a position to force the continuation of HEx. They don't really have any leverage.

They have enormous leverage. They are a very powerful organisation which usually negotiates at the highest governmental level. They are political with a capital P and as the owner to one of the biggest entrances to the UK they are not afraid to flex their muscles with Government.

As I have explained before, HEx is on the Airport RAB, so its fixed costs get paid for by the airlines through their airport charges. HEx itself has to cover its operational costs and is the nearest thing to a magic money tree as you will find in UK rail.

HEx will continue for as long as its owners want it to.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think this might be a good point to wrap this of usage figures discussion up. Thanks all.

Some discussions elsewhere that may be of interest:

Is the Heathrow Express a viable, worthwhile service?

To my understanding, paths and platform space are at a premium at Paddington. Heathrow Express is still twice as fast as the Elizabeth line but is also twice the price and only serves Paddington - I imagine the Elizabeth line must have severely cut into Heathrow Express passenger numbers? If...

www.railforums.co.uk

or

What should be done with Heathrow Express once Old Oak Common opens? And how could the paths be best used?

The Capital's largest airport really ought to remain on the National Rail network. It seems like they take a very customer focussed approach with their ticket touting at the station. First Class seems lacklustre, with having no catering, that's something they could improve. It's a shame that the...

www.railforums.co.uk