Heritage and private railways - speed limits

[Railperf]

Just clarifying, it it true the maximum speed allowed for carrying passengers is 25mph on Heritage railways? Is there a reason why that is the case?
Are higher speeds allowed on Heritage and private railways for test/ other purposes where passengers are not carried?
if so, how is the maximum speed determined other than braking distances, loco, train speed limits etc?

 

[John Webb]

Virtually all heritage lines work under Light Railway Orders, introduced by an act of parliament in 1896, which imposes a limit of 25mph. There are a few exceptions* made, most notably on the double track section of the Great Central railway, but only for test purposes and not with passenger-carrying trains. The 1896 Act built on acts of 1864 and 1868 and the 1870 Tramways Act. The 1896 act was designed to allow the construction of railways as cheaply as possible for the limited trade of agricultural areas. It was also possible to apply for an existing line to be converted to a 'Light Railway'.

The idea of the low speed was to minimise the need for major civil engineering works and the needs for signals compared to more usual railway construction.

*None too certain, but based on the usual risk assessments and under possessions to ensure safety as far as possible.

 

[Blockman]

Just clarifying, it it true the maximum speed allowed for carrying passengers is 25mph on Heritage railways? Is there a reason why that is the case?
Are higher speeds allowed on Heritage and private railways for test/ other purposes where passengers are not carried?
if so, how is the maximum speed determined other than braking distances, loco, train speed limits etc?

You may find the following two links of interest:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/who-we-work-with/railway-networks/minor-heritage-railways

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...-Is01-Guidance+on+Minor+Railways-Feb+2020.pdf

 

[Railperf]

You may find the following two links of interest:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/who-we-work-with/railway-networks/minor-heritage-railways

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...-Is01-Guidance+on+Minor+Railways-Feb+2020.pdf

Thanks all.. Interesting reading.

 

[RT4038]

I should imagine that the cost of Insurance would also have a bearing on the maximum speed of passenger train on heritage railways, even if the Light Railway Order speed limits didn't apply.

 

[Railperf]

Yes, it is clear that the rules for speeds higher than 25mph passenger running and the costs to implement those rules plus insurances etc make the costs prohibitive. I'd imagine the maintenance required alone could be very costly.
No wonder many regional lines with low traffic end up with multiple long-term TSR's. And that's the public railway with all the resources behind it.

 

[Flying Phil]

Re the Great Central - I believe they are permitted to run diesel powered test trains at up to 75mph and steam up to 50mph(60?) on the Quorn to Swithland section. They also are allowed to run the TPO set at 50 mph for mail exchange demonstrations through Quorn station....and a fine sight and sound it is!

 

[SteveM70]

For the majority of heritage railways, the speed limit is sensible because otherwise the journey time would be too short and maybe punters wouldn’t perceive value in visiting. Obviously there are exceptions like the NYMR

 

[matt]

Re the Great Central - I believe they are permitted to run diesel powered test trains at up to 75mph and steam up to 50mph(60?) on the Quorn to Swithland section. They also are allowed to run the TPO set at 50 mph for mail exchange demonstrations through Quorn station....and a fine sight and sound it is!

Is it 50mph for the TPO? I thought it was 35mph.

 

[hexagon789]

Is it 50mph for the TPO? I thought it was 35mph.

I thought it was 35 as well, perhaps they increased it at some point for added spectacle?

 

[Flying Phil]

It is described as "High Speed" mail exchange on the GC website, so I thought it was faster than 35 but I do not have an official figure.....still, it is a spectacle!

 

[Cowley]

There are a few preserved railways that have been allowed to run trains at higher speeds on certain sections for testing purposes.
The Severn Valley and The Mid Hants are two that I can think of.

 

[Steve Harris]

There are a few preserved railways that have been allowed to run trains at higher speeds on certain sections for testing purposes.
The Severn Valley and The Mid Hants are two that I can think of.

You can add the Mid Norfolk to that list too.

There is a Diesel Driver Experience video on youtube where the instructor tells the instructee to "open her up". I think the linespeed was 100mph for one particular section south of Dereham and said section was used in training a certain TOC's drivers for a period.

Unfortunately I don't know if the speed limit is still the same or has been lowered now.

 

[Trainfan344]

100mph seems pretty far fetched!

 

[Vespa]

100mph seems pretty far fetched!

Indeed with higher speed is longer stopping distance.

Not sure what the effect of an emergency stop from 100 mph would have on heritage tracks that may be second hand rails and sleepers.

 

[Steve Harris]

Indeed with higher speed is longer stopping distance.

Not sure what the effect of an emergency stop from 100 mph would have on heritage tracks that may be second hand rails and sleepers.

It was only a short section if I remember correctly (south of dereham), which didn't have any crossings and if memory serves me correctly concrete sleepers. I believe that the MNR got special permission to raise the speed limit from the usual 25mph as at that time they were being used by Anglia Railways to train their drivers (can't remember if it was traction or stock, I saw the clip approx. 4 yrs ago on youtube).

All that info above was mentioned by the instructor in the video which was recording someone's driver experience day. Unfortunately after a quick search of youtube I can't find it, but I'm sure it was/is on there. I just don't have the time to trawl through thousands of clips to find it !!!

I'm sure a member of this forum must have some knowledge of TOC driver training being carried out on the MNR railway to either confirm what I recall or correct me.

And yes, 100 does seem far fetched, but it is also why I remember the video, as the speed was wildly away from the norm of a heritage railway.

 

[Tallguy]

You can add the Mid Norfolk to that list too.

There is a Diesel Driver Experience video on youtube where the instructor tells the instructee to "open her up". I think the linespeed was 100mph for one particular section south of Dereham and said section was used in training a certain TOC's drivers for a period.

Unfortunately I don't know if the speed limit is still the same or has been lowered now.

I would be very interested in a Diesel Driver Experience at 100mph!

 

[Steve Harris]

I would be very interested in a Diesel Driver Experience at 100mph!

What are you waiting for? Contact the MNR, then you can report back and let us all know if the speed limit is still that or back down to the normal 25mph now.

 

[Tallguy]

I imagine they are shut at the moment. ☹️

 

[Steve Harris]

I imagine they are shut at the moment. ☹️

Well, they have a website with a contact form, so what's stopping you from finding out, other than yourself.

 

[Galvanize]

It was only a short section if I remember correctly (south of dereham), which didn't have any crossings and if memory serves me correctly concrete sleepers. I believe that the MNR got special permission to raise the speed limit from the usual 25mph as at that time they were being used by Anglia Railways to train their drivers (can't remember if it was traction or stock, I saw the clip approx. 4 yrs ago on youtube).

All that info above was mentioned by the instructor in the video which was recording someone's driver experience day. Unfortunately after a quick search of youtube I can't find it, but I'm sure it was/is on there. I just don't have the time to trawl through thousands of clips to find it !!!

I'm sure a member of this forum must have some knowledge of TOC driver training being carried out on the MNR railway to either confirm what I recall or correct me.

Anglia Railways/One used to use the Mid Norfolk Railway to train their drivers on Low Rail Adhesion, I remember not only an article in Rail Express magazine about it, but also saw one of their units at Dereham stabled there during a Diesel Gala weekend. A single car 153 was normally used, and the rails on a certain section would be “contaminated” with make believe leaf mulch/rainwater etc so that Drivers could get a feel of trying to handle the train in a controlled environment.

Think they were permitted to run at upto 40mph on a section of line but it definitely wasn’t 100mph...not that a 153 can even do that speed!

 

[tom1649]

Think they were permitted to run at upto 40mph on a section of line but it definitely wasn’t 100mph...not that a 153 can even do that speed!

A 153 would have to be dragged kicking and screaming by a 170 to achieve 100mph and a pungent hot smell may ensue!

 

[AM9]

A 153 would have to be dragged kicking and screaming by a 170 to achieve 100mph and a pungent hot smell may ensue!

For a long time, - the acceleration of a 170 is not exactly spectacular even with every car pulling its own weight.

 

[SteveyBee131]

One of the railway periodicals had a free DVD a few years ago which had one of their editorial team doing a driver experience day at the MNR which had the answer. I remember it mentioned about them training staff at a certain TOC, and I seem to remember it mentioned 40mph as their speed limit without passengers, but it's quite a while since I watched it. If I get some free time I'll have to dig it out and see. No promises though as I'm quite busy

 

[colchesterken]

Yes correct it was Railway Mag. they were driving a cl 31, It was near the end of the line, the instructor said you can speed up to 40mph,
does that allowance still apply
I have been a member of the Bluebell for many years and am aware they have renewed much of their track not to mention the new part from Kingscote to E Grinstead, I have often thought it would be fun to run say just a couple of high speed trains at 40 mph on special days

 

[Chris NS]

IIRC, most heritage trains need people guarding the doors to stop people falling out if you go more than 25 mph. I remember someone on NYMR railway saying that the track permits 30 mph running if they want to, but they don't bother with the extra 5 mph. However, when the trains run on the Esk Valley Line, where the speed limit is 45 mph, they go ahead and do this.

But someone from NYMR can correct me if my vague recollection is incorrect.

 

[Trainfan344]

NYMR Mainline stock has interior locking bolts which are pushed into position by train crew prior to departure from Grosmont/Whitby.

 

[Bevan Price]

There are a few preserved railways that have been allowed to run trains at higher speeds on certain sections for testing purposes.
The Severn Valley and The Mid Hants are two that I can think of.

And on more than a few heritage railways, I have encountered some rather liberal interpretations of 25 mph on normal running days.

 

[Tallguy]

Well, they have a website with a contact form, so what's stopping you from finding out, other than yourself.

I contacted MNR, line speed on their Diesel Driving experience is 25mph.

Looks like a great day out, think I will save my pennies and go maybe later this year or probably next.

 

[Steve Harris]

I contacted MNR, line speed on their Diesel Driving experience is 25mph.

Looks like a great day out, think I will save my pennies and go maybe later this year or probably next.

Thanx for the info, I did suspect it would be 25mph now (and was only higher for the period when "mainline" drivers were receiving training).