High Speed 1 (HS1) permitted routes

[156402]

Could someone with a bit more expertise than me with the routing guide (its been a few years since using it in anger) clarify that its states that journies from Southeastern stations to Liverpool Street via Stratford Int / Regional is indeed valid?

Reason I ask is that LUL bods on the gateline at Stratford are telling every HS passenger their tickets are not valid!

 

[yorkie]

If the route is either shown in the Routeing Guide and/or is the shortest route (or any distance up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route) then it is valid.

The interchange at Stratford/Stratford Intl is a recognised interchange and this cropped up previously:-

... The barrier staff at Stratford said they'd been told to let people through today "to stop them being abused".I've spoken to National Rail Enquiries who confirmed the ticket was valid and there has been no information from Southeastern (not unusual!) that this could be an issue. Can anybody help?

This issue has been raised with NXEA who have undertaken to rebrief staff.
If it was valid before when the bus link ran, it certainly still is now that you can interchange directly via Westfield!

The gateline staff are incorrect (surprise, surprise - NOT!)

I suggest you write to the company. I am happy to proof read. If you do not get a satisfactory response, we will have to take the matter further.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the Routeing Guide shows travel via Stratford Group and London Group, then it is valid....

Not sure I have seen London Group on many of the maps in the Routeing Guide, usually it is a named station, for example map HS and map HK have 'London St Pancras'. However if a map were to be vague enough to state 'London' or 'London Group' then that would be fair enough.

 

[John @ home]

map HS and map HK have 'London St Pancras'.

For many journeys to London Terminals on HS1, validity to Liverpool St is not based on mapped routes but on the shortest route rule. NRT Table 194 tells us that St Pancras is 6 miles further than Stratford International. Travelling to Liverpool St instead, Stratford International - Stratford (Regional) counts as zero length, and NRT Table 11 tells us that Liverpool St is 4 miles further than Stratford (Regional).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For many journeys to London Terminals on HS1, validity to Liverpool St is not based on mapped routes but on the shortest route rule....

But that is not what Yorkie said.

 

[34D]

For many journeys to London Terminals on HS1, validity to Liverpool St is not based on mapped routes but on the shortest route rule. NRT Table 194 tells us that St Pancras is 6 miles further than Stratford International. Travelling to Liverpool St instead, Stratford International - Stratford (Regional) counts as zero length, and NRT Table 11 tells us that Liverpool St is 4 miles further than Stratford (Regional).

But we must also observe the mileage to the 'classic' termini aswell, as it could be that they are less than 3 miles the route to LST and hence a grey area.

 

[yorkie]

But that is not what Yorkie said.

Which is why John helpfully added that the shortest route rule also applies. That is in addition to mapped routes, which I should have mentioned earlier. The right to use the shortest route is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and further clarified in the Routeing Guide in detail.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Might I then point out that the Routeing Guide would never show travel via Stratford and London Groups as being the shortest route.

 

[newmilton]

Last week I bought a super off peak return from Burton-on-Trent to Clacton-on-Sea from Red Spotted Hanky, who routed me via HS1 from St Pancras to Stratford, thence Greater Anglia to Clacton. The ticket had the customary 'ꝉ' mark on it.

When I arrived at the SE platforms at STP the barrier rejected my ticket, so I showed it to the man at the gate who told me it wasn't valid, I had to go via tube. I showed him my booking confirmation, to which he replied, 'That doesn't prove your ticket is valid, it just shows the fastest route (!). Your ticket isn't valid because we don't get any money out of it.'

(I thought that odd since SE use the same booking engine and would have sold me the same ticket for the same route, however ...)

In the event he grudgingly let me through 'this time'. My ticket was rejected again leaving Stratford International; but the man on the gate there let me through without questioning the ticket itself.

Who was right: RSH and the booking engine who sent me that way; or the gate staff who told me my ticket wasn't valid?

 

[34D]

Might I then point out that the Routeing Guide would never show travel via Stratford and London Groups as being the shortest route.

Take for example Hastings. As far as I can see, the nearest london terminal is Lopndon Bridge at 60.5 miles, Victoria 63.5 miles, st pancras is 66.5 miles, Liverpool St is 64.5 miles and Paddington is 75 miles. Which are appropriate and which are not?

 

[yorkie]

Might I then point out that the Routeing Guide would never show travel via Stratford and London Groups as being the shortest route.

The Routeing Guide does not contain any data to determine the shortest route. All it does is clarify that the shortest route rule includes routes up to 3 miles longer.

 

[yorkie]

Last week I bought a super off peak return from Burton-on-Trent to Clacton-on-Sea from Red Spotted Hanky, who routed me via HS1 from St Pancras to Stratford, thence Greater Anglia to Clacton. The ticket had the customary 'ꝉ' mark on it.

When I arrived at the SE platforms at STP the barrier rejected my ticket, so I showed it to the man at the gate who told me it wasn't valid, I had to go via tube. I showed him my booking confirmation, to which he replied, 'That doesn't prove your ticket is valid, it just shows the fastest route (!).

I would reply along the lines "It is evidence of a contract. If you will not honour the contract, I would like to speak to your manager to discuss the issue further please."

Your ticket isn't valid because we don't get any money out of it.'

I would reply along the lines "That isn't a reason for rejecting a ticket. What rule are you quoting from? The rules of validity are not determined by revenue allocation"

In the event he grudgingly let me through 'this time'.

Ah, that old chestnut!

It is valid. Stratford Intl - Stratford London is a recognised interchange. I suggest writing to SET asking them what steps they will take to ensure staff are adequately trained in future.

I'm not quite sure why it is that some gateline staff seem to think that HS1 is somehow special, and exempt from the usual rules.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Take for example Hastings. As far as I can see, the nearest london terminal is Lopndon Bridge at 60.5 miles, Victoria 63.5 miles, st pancras is 66.5 miles, Liverpool St is 64.5 miles and Paddington is 75 miles. Which are appropriate and which are not?

Has that got anything to do with what you quoted?

The Routeing Guide does not contain any data to determine the shortest route. All it does is clarify that the shortest route rule includes routes up to 3 miles longer.

So you agree with me then? It does not show the shortest route.

....I would reply along the lines "It is evidence of a contract. If you will not honour the contract, I would like to speak to your manager to discuss the issue further please."....

I wouldn't, the NRCoC is quite clear about what routes you can use.

....It is valid. Stratford Intl - Stratford London is a recognised interchange. I suggest writing to SET asking them what steps they will take to ensure staff are adequately trained in future....

Isn't via London longer than via Ely? If so, given that HS1 is not a mapped route, is there an easement that allows it?

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't, the NRCoC is quite clear about what routes you can use.

ATOC disagree with your position.

"if you have selected a journey on the journey planner and a ticket is shown as being available for that journey then you can use that ticket." - ATOC

 

[hairyhandedfool]

My position has nowt to do with it, I can read the NRCoC.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Might I then point out that the Routeing Guide would never show travel via Stratford and London Groups as being the shortest route.

The station-to-station mileage data that ATOC supplies to the booking engine operators (along with the Routeing Guide) has the link from St Pancras to Stratford missing, so it can never form part of the shortest route to anywhere when calculated using that data. I find that very dodgy indeed.