Hitachi IET Performance on Hills

Bigman

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Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey and if so how did it perform? My only experience of an IET on diesel power was a TPE 802 from Leeds to York and back. It seemed to struggle on Peckfield Bank, so I was wondering how it would perform on even steeper banks. I am guessing that Cheetham Hill out of Manny Vic must test them a fair bit as must the climbs up to Standedge.
 
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hexagon789

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Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey and if so how did it perform? My only experience of an IET on diesel power was a TPE 802 from Leeds to York and back. It seemed to struggle on Peckfield Bank, so I was wondering how it would perform on even steeper banks. I am guessing that Cheetham Hill out of Manny Vic must test them a fair bit as must the climbs up to Standedge.
A standard 800/802 on whatever maximum power settings Hitachi permit shouldn't do too badly, the downgraded LNER sets are slower over Slochd and Drumochter than HSTs though. I believe they adjusted the arrival time in Perth southwards to compensate for one.
 

Mag_seven

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Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey

I don't believe they are gauge cleared for the Lickey so no.

IETs have been up Beattock though so I wonder how they fared on that (albeit I suspect they would be on electric mode)
 

gingertom

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Has a Hitachi IET ever been up the Lickey and if so how did it perform? My only experience of an IET on diesel power was a TPE 802 from Leeds to York and back. It seemed to struggle on Peckfield Bank, so I was wondering how it would perform on even steeper banks. I am guessing that Cheetham Hill out of Manny Vic must test them a fair bit as must the climbs up to Standedge.
They are on the Highland Main Line too, so there's the infamous southbound climb to Slochd summit. Any drivers on here able to comment?
 

Bigman

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Of course I was forgetting that the GWR ones go over the Devon banks, so how do they compare to say 220's on the banks?
 
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I remember going on an 802 from Lea Green to Leeds sat in the middle coach and I couldn’t hear any traction motor or engine sounds so I pressume that only 2/5 coaches were powered compared to the usual 3/5.

I couldn’t notice any difference in performance on electric, but my god it felt slow on diesel. It still kept to time though.
 

superalbs

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Of course I was forgetting that the GWR ones go over the Devon banks, so how do they compare to say 220's on the banks?
In my experience they're a little bit sad, you can hear them struggling.
 

hexagon789

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I remember going on an 802 from Lea Green to Leeds sat in the middle coach and I couldn’t hear any traction motor or engine sounds so I pressume that only 2/5 coaches were powered compared to the usual 3/5.

I couldn’t notice any difference in performance on electric, but my god it felt slow on diesel. It still kept to time though.
It was my understanding that if one engine failed the traction motors on that car were still fed power but from the other vehicles. I thought that was a design feature of the bi-mode 80x?
 
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It was my understanding that if one engine failed the traction motors on that car were still fed power but from the other vehicles. I thought that was a design feature of the bi-mode 80x?
It must have been a motor issue if it was the same whilst the pantograph was raised. I remember that it did have the physics of a trailer carriage i.e. ‘shunting’ when the brakes were applied.
 

irish_rail

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Of course I was forgetting that the GWR ones go over the Devon banks, so how do they compare to say 220's on the banks?
220 far quicker. An 802 with all engines working can just about top Hemerdon at 60ish. In comparison a 2+8 HST would need to have power shut off to prevent it going over 60mph at the summit.
 

Sean Emmett

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220 far quicker. An 802 with all engines working can just about top Hemerdon at 60ish. In comparison a 2+8 HST would need to have power shut off to prevent it going over 60mph at the summit.
Yes indeed, but the 802 will usually clear Hemerdon quicker than an HST, due to the faster start out of Plymouth.

Similar from Totnes to Dainton Eastbound, and Newton Aboot to Dainton Westbound.

OK there are logs of HSTs with quicker ascents, but these tended to take liberties with the speed restrictions on the curves at the foot of the banks.
 

irish_rail

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Yes indeed, but the 802 will usually clear Hemerdon quicker than an HST, due to the faster start out of Plymouth.

Similar from Totnes to Dainton Eastbound, and Newton Aboot to Dainton Westbound.

OK there are logs of HSTs with quicker ascents, but these tended to take liberties with the speed restrictions on the curves at the foot of the banks.
That depends how it is driven. Personally I don't whack open the power out of Plymouth as there is a long stretch of 25mph , and instead allow speed to build smoothly and gradually upto 25mph, in much the same way as a HST. Similarly, once linespeed increases after mutley tunnel, again, I don't just whack it open like a toy, but gradually allow speed to increase on the downward gradient to Laira, again giving very similar acceleration as a HST.
Thankfully most other drivers do the same. Nothing worse than being on an IET than when the driver only uses two positions on the power controller , on and off. Makes for one hell of a poor ride.
 

Bluejays

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That depends how it is driven. Personally I don't whack open the power out of Plymouth as there is a long stretch of 25mph , and instead allow speed to build smoothly and gradually upto 25mph, in much the same way as a HST. Similarly, once linespeed increases after mutley tunnel, again, I don't just whack it open like a toy, but gradually allow speed to increase on the downward gradient to Laira, again giving very similar acceleration as a HST.
Thankfully most other drivers do the same. Nothing worse than being on an IET than when the driver only uses two positions on the power controller , on and off. Makes for one hell of a poor ride.
Very true.
 

slidingdoors

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A standard 800/802 on whatever maximum power settings Hitachi permit shouldn't do too badly, the downgraded LNER sets are slower over Slochd and Drumochter than HSTs though. I believe they adjusted the arrival time in Perth southwards to compensate for one.
How are LNER units downgraded out of interest? So the performance is less than say the GWR ones?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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How are LNER units downgraded out of interest? So the performance is less than say the GWR ones?
It's not quite that simple.
Class 800 and 801 bi-modes (supplied under the IEP contract to GWR and LNER) have a limit on the power allowed on diesel (part of the maintenance contract).
Class 802 (purchased by FirstGroup for GWR, TPE, Hull Trains) have a higher power rating (notionally for the Devon banks on GWR).
So on GWR is all depends whether your train is an 800/801 or an 802 (usually an 802 for the south west).
LNER only have class 800 bi-modes, with the limited power setting.
Electric performance is unaffected.
 

D6975

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The 800s as delivered were ‘snipped’ to produce less power than an 802 (less rigorous maintenance regime). They did however have a built in allowance for the engines to be more fully utilised if one engine failed. GWR 800s have however since been reprogrammed to be the same as 802s, so are more powerful than Eastern ones.

ps 801s are not bi-modes, they are pure electrics.
 

43096

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It's not quite that simple.
Class 800 and 801 bi-modes (supplied under the IEP contract to GWR and LNER) have a limit on the power allowed on diesel (part of the maintenance contract).
Class 802 (purchased by FirstGroup for GWR, TPE, Hull Trains) have a higher power rating (notionally for the Devon banks on GWR).
So on GWR is all depends whether your train is an 800/801 or an 802 (usually an 802 for the south west).
LNER only have class 800 bi-modes, with the limited power setting.
Electric performance is unaffected.
Not this again. It has been stated numerous times on here by people in the know that the GWR 800s are now full rated under diesel power.

Please don’t keep perpetuating this urban myth.
 

Randomer

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ps 801s are not bi-modes, they are pure electrics.

I thought the 801's are technically bi-mode* but very low performance ones due to the single generator unit for the whole train? I think I read that the units for First East Coast, the 803s with backup batteries for hotel power, will be the only pure electric AT300 Hitachi units being used on the ECML.

* Excepting the current strangeness about Hitachi not allowing the GU to be used to propel the train at low speed but only for hotel services as was discussed here some time in the last year or so.
 

D6975

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The generator on an 801 is not for normal use, it's only capable of very low speed shunting or emergency moves.
 

RPI

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One thing I've noticed since mass IET introduction is their better performance climbing Rattery and Dainton, when I say better performance im referring specifically to better adhesion. I seem to remember every autumn numerous HST'S slipping to a stand on both (I've been stuck on one or two!). I expect this is down to an IET having every axle powered.
 

43096

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One thing I've noticed since mass IET introduction is their better performance climbing Rattery and Dainton, when I say better performance im referring specifically to better adhesion. I seem to remember every autumn numerous HST'S slipping to a stand on both (I've been stuck on one or two!). I expect this is down to an IET having every axle powered.
IETs do not have every axle powered. They do have more powered than an HST, though.
 

Clarence Yard

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GWR Class 800 GUs have been uprated to produce similar outputs to 802s.

No they haven’t. Apart from the first 3 (which were then test units), all the GWR 800 units were delivered with the higher 700kw software rating already in place. The other 3 were altered before they entered passenger service.

Unit 4 was the unit that did the timing and fuel tests in early 2017 that proved the need for all of the GWR units to run at 700kw, the same power rating as a 802.

If wiki is still telling you otherwise, it is still wrong.
 

notadriver

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No they haven’t. Apart from the first 3 (which were then test units), all the GWR 800 units were delivered with the higher 700kw software rating already in place. The other 3 were altered before they entered passenger service.

Unit 4 was the unit that did the timing and fuel tests in early 2017 that proved the need for all of the GWR units to run at 700kw, the same power rating as a 802.

If wiki is still telling you otherwise, it is still wrong.

I did mean 700kW. It’s my understanding the originally they produced less. LNER’s i believe are only good for 560kW
 

irish_rail

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One thing I've noticed since mass IET introduction is their better performance climbing Rattery and Dainton, when I say better performance im referring specifically to better adhesion. I seem to remember every autumn numerous HST'S slipping to a stand on both (I've been stuck on one or two!). I expect this is down to an IET having every axle powered.
Absolutely. IeT beats Hst hands down in terms of pulling away in slippery conditions. Worlds apart...however braking wise, I've noticed IETs slip a little more than HSTs did, although not enough to warrant concern.
 

DannyMich2018

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Had a week in Devon at Dawlish Warren. Seen plenty of 802s in both 5, 9 and 10 car formation. Seen a couple of 800s too. Had a ride eastbound from Totnes to Newton Abbot. In my opinion performance appears to be only a bit less better than voyages. Was my first trip on an IET. Those seats are awful though....
 

hexagon789

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however braking wise, I've noticed IETs slip a little more than HSTs did, although not enough to warrant concern.
No tread brakes while the HST had them on the power cars? Possibly the tread brakes also helped condition the wheels sufficiently during braking to give an noticeable difference in poor adhesion conditions against an IET which would be discs only.
 

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