Hitachi Rail targeting new contracts in UK market

[upnorth71]

Hitachi Rail is targeting lucrative train building contracts in Merseyside, Wales and Scotland as the Japanese group looks to smash the dominance of the European market’s three biggest manufacturers.

...Mr Dormer is looking to bid on new train sets for Edinburgh-to-Glasgow, Valleys & Cardiff and Merseyrail. The last contract alone would be worth £400m, while the Scottish and Welsh routes need new trains as part of their electrification programmes.

full article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ge-to-europes-big-train-builders-8907758.html

 

[YorkshireBear]

full article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ge-to-europes-big-train-builders-8907758.html

As expected, now they need to find work for the factory they are building in County Durham.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hitachi is on the Crossrail short list. That is far bigger than any of the others mentioned.
Scotrail is tiny, Merseyrail is drifting out and Valleys will probably take 315s initially.
No mention of a GW, TP or MML requirement, I notice.

 

[hwl]

Hitachi is on the Crossrail short list. That is far bigger than any of the others mentioned.
Scotrail is tiny, Merseyrail is drifting out and Valleys will probably take 315s initially.
No mention of a GW, TP or MML requirement, I notice.

They need to win a first low speed contract.
Take a small order and bid low so you win and use it for the experience?
Crossrail might be too big to afford to bid low.

 

[gordonthemoron]

so no bullet trains on Merseyrail then

 

[DXMachina]

so no bullet trains on Merseyrail then

i'd have thought mullet trains more appropriate to the 'Pool.

 

[joeykins82]

Presumably LO are wed to Bombardier so will stick to ordering 378s for GOBLIN post-electrification stock; they might be in the market for the West Anglia Metro though, especially if it's operationally independent of LO. Also maybe a joint order for Merseyrail's 507 & 508 replacement with the FCC 313s.

 

[MK Tom]

Wasn't the Newton Aycliffe plant intended to produce trains for all of Europe, giving Hitachi an entrance into the whole European market rather than just the UK?

 

[WatcherZero]

Hitachi is on the Crossrail short list. That is far bigger than any of the others mentioned.
Scotrail is tiny, Merseyrail is drifting out and Valleys will probably take 315s initially.
No mention of a GW, TP or MML requirement, I notice.

Surely they are looking at possible orders that would be delivered after IEP phase 1/2 are finished so thats what 2018/2019 onwards. The size of Crossrail could justify opening an additional assembly line and theyve mentioned in future orders body shells could be made in the UK rather than Japan. However TP, GW and MML would likely being looking at delivery in 2018 and earlier while those listed would be looking at delivery near the end of IEP construction or later.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely they are looking at possible orders that would be delivered after IEP phase 1/2 are finished so thats what 2018/2019 onwards. The size of Crossrail could justify opening an additional assembly line and theyve mentioned in future orders body shells could be made in the UK rather than Japan. However TP, GW and MML would likely being looking at delivery in 2018 and earlier while those listed would be looking at delivery near the end of IEP construction or later.

Well the sequence is probably going to be GW, Scotrail, TP, MML, Valleys and then maybe EW/XC.
Not sure about Merseyrail any more, I think they are contemplating another refresh to extend the 50x fleet.
Scotrail might be spread out over several years as EGIP progresses.
I agree they have their work cut out with IEP, but a derivative of the Class 395 would meet many of the other requirements.

 

[fgwrich]

Wasn't the Newton Aycliffe plant intended to produce trains for all of Europe, giving Hitachi an entrance into the whole European market rather than just the UK?

It what Hitachi have said, however the ill fated Thrall Europe said the same thing in the past with York works, and considering that Hitachi say they intend to build European gauge rolling stock in Newton Aycliffe - I presume a lot of that will have to be roaded out then? And will they actually build rolling stock there or just assemble kits from Japan?

Hitachi Rail is targeting lucrative train building contracts in Merseyside, Wales and Scotland as the Japanese group looks to smash the dominance of the European market’s three biggest manufacturers.

Considering how week our favourite 'Derby based manufacturer' have been in the past, I could see Bombardier shrinking their UK business further and Derby almost likely to close if Hitachi become as aggressive as many Japanese businesses have been in the past.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It what Hitachi have said, however the ill fated Thrall Europe said the same thing in the past with York works, and considering that Hitachi say they intend to build European gauge rolling stock in Newton Aycliffe - I presume a lot of that will have to be roaded out then? And will they actually build rolling stock there or just assemble kits from Japan?

Yes i believe Newton Aycliffe due to its proximity to teesdock for export.

 

[Loki]

Yes i believe Newton Aycliffe due to its proximity to teesdock for export.

Would have been better for exports to build in next to HS1. Or in long terms HS2.

 

[WatcherZero]

Newton was indeed chosen for export potential. That said with AnsaldoBreda up for sale and the two leading contenders being GE and Hitachi, acquiring that would have greater European potential for Hitachi albeit requiring a thorough housecleaning of staff to improve production quality.

 

[anthony263]

I think Hitachi could get some orders for the Cardiff Valleys if they can build a 2 carriage ac emu especially since a good number of off peak services can manage with two carriages

 

[WelshZ]

I think Hitachi could get some orders for the Cardiff Valleys if they can build a 2 carriage ac emu especially since a good number of off peak services can manage with two carriages

As a regular user for the valley lines I would much prefer it that we didn't get a 1-1 replacement for the existing pacer/sprinter fleet and got a bit more capacity in the form of 3 coach units. Besides, 2 car AC EMU units are the exception not the norm

 

[joeykins82]

Given that the running costs for EMUs are so low compared to DMUs it'd be an act of complete insanity to order 2-car EMUs. 3-car should be the absolute minimum length of EMU orders.

 

[pemma]

Given that the running costs for EMUs are so low compared to DMUs it'd be an act of complete insanity to order 2-car EMUs. 3-car should be the absolute minimum length of EMU orders.

Surely a 2 car EMU every 20 minutes, for instance, would be better for passengers than a 3 car EMU every 30 minutes.

The running costs for EMU are low but the cost of electrification is extremely high which is why Network Rail say it's difficult to justify the cost of electrification where the service frequency is 1tph standard pattern in each direction.

 

[anthony263]

Anyway if Hitachi are desperate for orders maybe the Welsh Government can negociate a deal for new emu's rather than using the elderly class 315's. Certainly Hitachi entering the uk market with a uk factory we can only hope will cause Bombardiers management to get their act together.

There is likely to be a good few orders for new rolling stock over the next 20 years or so and a big one will be the new trains for HS2 if/when it is built a contract Hitachi are likely to be really pushing for.

 

[joeykins82]

Surely a 2 car EMU every 20 minutes, for instance, would be better for passengers than a 3 car EMU every 30 minutes.

My guess is that the overall cost of 3tph 2-cars would be massively higher than 2tph 3-cars (NR path costs, train crew, maintenance of vehicles with traction gear), but the increase from 3tph 2-car to 3tph 3-car would be marginal since it's just sticking a trailer car in the middle.

My point is that with regards to the sourcing of rolling stock I don't see how it makes any economic sense to specify and order a fleet of 2-car EMUs. If they're expected to have a 40 year lifespan it would severely limit the options for growth or redeployment/cascade. Then again I'm a firm believer in speccing it right in the first place since the higher upfront cost of doing it properly in the first place is almost certainly cheaper than having to go back and put back the corners that were cut!

 

[pemma]

My point is that with regards to the sourcing of rolling stock I don't see how it makes any economic sense to specify and order a fleet of 2-car EMUs. If they're expected to have a 40 year lifespan it would severely limit the options for growth or redeployment/cascade.

That doesn't seem to stop 4 car EMUs being ordered for the South East and later getting cascaded North in 3 car formations e.g. the 308s, the 508s and the option of making the 319s 3 car is being looked at. In the case of the 508s and potentially the 319s it's due to needing 6 car formations which isn't possible using 4 car units. Maybe ordering 2 car units which are compatible with existing 4 car units would prevent this happening again in 20 years time?

 

[Suraggu]

I think Hitachi could get some orders for the Cardiff Valleys if they can build a 2 carriage ac emu especially since a good number of off peak services can manage with two carriages

In this day with growing passenger numbers and the way EMU orders in the last few years, I would be inclined to say minimum AC EMU orders would be a minimum of 3 car sets.

 

[WatcherZero]

That doesn't seem to stop 4 car EMUs being ordered for the South East and later getting cascaded North in 3 car formations e.g. the 308s, the 508s and the option of making the 319s 3 car is being looked at. In the case of the 508s and potentially the 319s it's due to needing 6 car formations which isn't possible using 4 car units. Maybe ordering 2 car units which are compatible with existing 4 car units would prevent this happening again in 20 years time?

Its primarily about improving their power to weight performance to get the best acceleration between relatively close stations and best improved journey times/pathing, being shorter having less platform alterations is a side effect. The Leasing Company is offering the shorter units modification during refurbishment to multiple tocs not just Northern.

 

[47802]

I'm sure any of the manufacturers could provide a 2 car EMU if required.

Unfortunately if Bombardier don't get Cross rail I think they may well call it a day at Derby.

 

[Photohunter71]

Are Hitachi capable of building locomotives electric or diesel? I'm positive they are,but are there many examples in Japan for instance?

 

[joeykins82]

I'm willing to place money that there will never be a new build locomotive hauled passenger rolling stock order in the UK. Ever again. Ever.

Hitachi may well design & build a fleet of electro-diesel and electric locomotives for freight services, but all new passenger stock will be multiple units. Losing a whole car length of capacity for the loco (even if the DVT included 2/3rds seating) and reduction in acceleration compared to MU is completely unsuitable on a network as intensively operated as the UK's rail network.

You just have to look at the stock that's been introduced (22x, 390, 395) and the stock that's due to be introduced (IEP) to see which way the wind is blowing on loco haulage.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well the recent locomotive orders have had the electrical connections to run passenger coachs, whether there will ever again be any coaching stock ordered is a good question.

 

[themiller]

It what Hitachi have said, however the ill fated Thrall Europe said the same thing in the past with York works, and considering that Hitachi say they intend to build European gauge rolling stock in Newton Aycliffe - I presume a lot of that will have to be roaded out then? And will they actually build rolling stock there or just assemble kits from Japan?

Is there any possibility that a route will be developed to deliver any European gauge stock by rail or will it have to go by road?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is there any possibility that a route will be developed to deliver any European gauge stock by rail or will it have to go by road?

Very expensive infrastructure project for prospective orders. Easier to just road em to the port.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Personally, I think there might be something to be said for a mix of 2-car and 3-car units. That gives you flexiblity to run 2-car, 3-car, 4-car, 5-car and 6-car formations as required. One possible drawback though is the need for accessible toilets (assuming there are toilets at all) after 2020. That might make the case for 2-car units weaker.

Are Hitachi capable of building locomotives electric or diesel? I'm positive they are,but are there many examples in Japan for instance?

I believe this has been covered in the IEP debate, Hitachi don't do locomotives. There seem to be a good selection of locomotive options available anyway, Vollosh (class 68 and 88 I think) and Bombadier (TraXX) have already been offered in UK variants. Not sure about Siemens Vectron and Alstom Prima, are UK versions of these on offer too?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the recent locomotive orders have had the electrical connections to run passenger coachs, whether there will ever again be any coaching stock ordered is a good question.

There was an article in Modern Railways quite a while ago about the mrk3s on the London-Norwich route. One option was to build new vehicles to replace the DVTs, but using the bogies from the DVTs. It was commented that such a new vehicle might become the basis for a new mark5 coach design.

However, since the majority of the IC125 replacment will be IEPs I think we are unlikely to see a large fleet of coaches built, maybe a small fleet to replace the non-IC125 mrk3s and later the mrk4s (assuming the mrk4s don't replace the mrk3s anyway).