Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Killingworth]

It’s a double slip sitting on the Down Refuge at Edale. I can only think that it’s destined for Earles Sidings to replace pointwork there. There’s certainly no use for it at Edale or in the new works at Bamford - they’re well out of favour now, because of their complexity and maintenance cost, so reserved only for genuinely restricted sites where the space saving is essential.

The existing layout at Edale, with single-ended refuge sidings (which is what they’ve always been) is virtually useless for traffic purposes nowadays. Converting them into loops with the existing signalling would be very expensive, and not justified if it’s to be resignalled soon, with loops at Bamford, anyway.

Curious that a double slip should have been left at Edale for Earle's. It looks quite bulky to move so it will be interesting to know how long it's been there and when it's to be installed.

 

[Ships]

Curious that a double slip should have been left at Edale for Earle's. It looks quite bulky to move so it will be interesting to know how long it's been there and when it's to be installed.

It's for Earle's. This financial year I believe.

 

[edwin_m]

Curious that a double slip should have been left at Edale for Earle's. It looks quite bulky to move so it will be interesting to know how long it's been there and when it's to be installed.

The road access to Earles isn't much more than a farm track so I guess they brought it in via the car park at Edale and will rail it to Earles at a suitable time.

Incidentally from aerial mapping the refuge at Edale looks to be about 300m long. Loops need to be around 1000m to allow for a 775m freight train and a signalling overlap. The freight trains on this line are less than the maximum 775m but I read somewhere they are trying to maximise capacity by making them longer. Anyone know the length of the planned Bamford loops?

 

[Killingworth]

The road access to Earles isn't much more than a farm track so I guess they brought it in via the car park at Edale and will rail it to Earles at a suitable time.

Incidentally from aerial mapping the refuge at Edale looks to be about 300m long. Loops need to be around 1000m to allow for a 775m freight train and a signalling overlap. The freight trains on this line are less than the maximum 775m but I read somewhere they are trying to maximise capacity by making them longer. Anyone know the length of the planned Bamford loops?

Bamford loop 1062 metres.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Bamford loop only eastbound, for the avoidance of doubt.

Because most westbound freights are of discharged wagons the trains are generally nippier. It can still be necessary to hold some westbound moves for Peak Forest and beyond at Earle’s sidings loop if other moves are expected over the Chinley triangle.

 

[snowball]

The latest update to the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan is now up:

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Enhancement-Delivery-Plan-.pdf

However the bits which mention the Hope Valley scheme haven't been updated and it's still described as subject to TWAO!

 

[edwin_m]

Bamford loop only eastbound, for the avoidance of doubt.

Because most westbound freights are of discharged wagons the trains are generally nippier. It can still be necessary to hold some westbound moves for Peak Forest and beyond at Earle’s sidings loop if other moves are expected over the Chinley triangle.

Earles loop is only 358m and on a 1 in 100 rising so I have my doubts about how useful it is. But the same gradient runs from Bamford to the start of Cowburn Tunnel (apart from the length of the platforms at Edale) so a loop at Bamford or anywhere else along there wouldn't be much better.

 

[Tomnick]

Earles loop is only 358m and on a 1 in 100 rising so I have my doubts about how useful it is. But the same gradient runs from Bamford to the start of Cowburn Tunnel (apart from the length of the platforms at Edale) so a loop at Bamford or anywhere else along there wouldn't be much better.

It's a good (similar?) gradient out of the proposed loop on the Up at Bamford too, albeit only for a short distance - getting a freight out of there into a tight-ish margin might be fun.

 

[Killingworth]

The latest update to the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan is now up:

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Enhancement-Delivery-Plan-.pdf

However the bits which mention the Hope Valley scheme haven't been updated and it's still described as subject to TWAO!

The same as Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16!

HVCS is showing with intended completion in CP6. CP6 starts in April 2019 and Network Rail have publicly said they hope to start work in 2019. It was originally intended for work to start about April 2017 to finish in about 14 months. Some procedures have changed since then and that may have impact on phasing of the work. Heavy earth moving won't be done in winter, so a spring start date may mean deferral until April 2020. That should still allow completion in time for the December 2021 timetable changes when Liverpool - Norwich is intended to be split at Nottingham with TPE or Northern taking over Liverpool-Nottingham.

 

[snowball]

The same as Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16!

In the case of Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16 that's technically correct. No official decision has been announced either way.

 

[Kneedown]

View attachment 53350

The tunnel is 6,230 yards, 3.5 miles or 5.7km, long and following trains cannot be in the tunnel at the same time. This must be one of the longest block sections on a mainline in Britain. It's the 4th longest railway tunnel in Britain."

I always thought Totley was the third longest railway tunnel in Britain, behind the Channel, and Severn Tunnels, and the longest wholly under land. Have I missed a longer one?

 

[Tomnick]

I always thought Totley was the third longest railway tunnel in Britain, behind the Channel, and Severn Tunnels, and the longest wholly under land. Have I missed a longer one?

I think it (and the Severn Tunnel) have now been overtaken by the two tunnels at the London end of HS1?

 

[Kneedown]

I think it (and the Severn Tunnel) have now been overtaken by the two tunnels at the London end of HS1?

That would make sense, and a quick look on Wiki has two Crossrail tunnels down as longer.

 

[LowLevel]

Curious that a double slip should have been left at Edale for Earle's. It looks quite bulky to move so it will be interesting to know how long it's been there and when it's to be installed.

Edale and Grindleford are used as access points to move things along the Hope Valley to locations where road access is poor. They have a little kart located at each for staff to use for transport and a few road rail trailers.

 

[Killingworth]

Edale and Grindleford are used as access points to move things along the Hope Valley to locations where road access is poor. They have a little kart located at each for staff to use for transport and a few road rail trailers.

Road access up Edale is poor (passing Earle's, after leaving Hope to get there) although the station site itself has plenty of space for any works vehicles on the railway side towards Cowburn.

Noisy night work on the Grindleford site is a regular complaint by local residents!

 

[hwl]

That would make sense, and a quick look on Wiki has two Crossrail tunnels down as longer.

CTRL tunnels:
St Pancras - Stratford Up 7,543m down 7,529m
Stratford - Dagenham both tunnels 10,120m

Crossrail:
Royal Oak - Victoria Dock both tunnels 16,089m
(RO - Pudding Mill Lane 14,119m)

So 6 domestic under land tunnels are longer

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn’t the northern line longer from Morden to Golders Green?

 

[Killingworth]

Isn’t the northern line longer from Morden to Golders Green?

Totley Tunnel is a little different to the Northern Line, not just long and wet, but roughly 700 feet below Totley Moss above ground. There is probably not a tunnel deeper in the UK and it's shared by heavy limestone and cement trains as well as passenger services operated by 3 TOCs operating stopping and through faster trains. That makes for rather more potential issues than on the underground with a procession of similar stock fairly near the surface in a heavily populated area.

Which is why electrification would be an enormous challenge!

 

[Tomnick]

Totley Tunnel is a little different to the Northern Line, not just long and wet, but roughly 700 feet below Totley Moss above ground. There is probably not a tunnel deeper in the UK and it's shared by heavy limestone and cement trains as well as passenger services operated by 3 TOCs operating stopping and through faster trains. That makes for rather more potential issues than on the underground with a procession of similar stock fairly near the surface in a heavily populated area.

Which is why electrification would be an enormous challenge!

I’m certain that Cowburn’s deeper, by a good 100’ as a rough estimation. The general point still stands though, of course! I understand that a previous resignalling effort, possibly to make Grindleford the fringe box or possibly even to take the whole lot, was thwarted by the wet conditions in the tunnels making them unsuitable for track circuits.

 

[Killingworth]

I’m certain that Cowburn’s deeper, by a good 100’ as a rough estimation. The general point still stands though, of course! I understand that a previous resignalling effort, possibly to make Grindleford the fringe box or possibly even to take the whole lot, was thwarted by the wet conditions in the tunnels making them unsuitable for track circuits.

I'm looking at "Longitudinal Section of the Dore and Chinley Railway, showing the elevations and tunnels" published about the time of construction.

The summit over Totley Moss is shown as 1300 feet, and Cowburn near peak, 1500 feet. Heading west Totley is rising at 1 in 200 and Cowburn falling at 1 in 175. Totley is shown as 767 feet below ground level at its deepest point. Cowburn may be 848 feet below the surface, although the printing is blurred. Checking the scale it's deeper by about that factor.

Elsewhere I have a reference in Chapter XXVIII of Practical Tunnelling by D Kinnear Clatrk, published in 1896, that Totley Moss is 730 feet above the rails and think that's fairly consistent. He concentrates his work on Totley and although he gives masses of information about the surveying and tunnelling he doesn't give the depth below the surface for Cowburn.

Resignalling is supposed to be part of the Capacity Scheme, bringing Earle's and the Bamford loop into the York area of control. How that will impact on the tunnel remains to be seen. The current boundaries of jurisdiction between LNE and LNW fall in the middle of the new Dore loop, just west of Dore West junction, if I'm reading the plans in the public inquiry documentation correctly!

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

And this is how the busy junction looked 100 years ago with frequent trains into Sheffield on those 4 tracks.

View attachment 52807

Interesting. 0/T I wonder what the loco is? You might think a Midland 4-4-0, but it doesn't really look like one.

 

[Kneedown]

Totley Tunnel is a little different to the Northern Line, not just long and wet, but roughly 700 feet below Totley Moss above ground. There is probably not a tunnel deeper in the UK

Another gem from my route learning days was that Cowburn Tunnel (the next one along heading towards Manchester) is deeper, and possibly the deepest.

 

[Ploughman]

Depth of tunnel does not make a great deal of difference to any land tunnel, it just means the track either side does not have as steep a gradient.
As for being wet, that depends on the surrounding rock.
Numerous "Shallow" tunnels are wet and "Deep" ones dry.

 

[Killingworth]

Another gem from my route learning days was that Cowburn Tunnel (the next one along heading towards Manchester) is deeper, and possibly the deepest.

See post 200. It is.

 

[AndrewE]

Depth of tunnel does not make a great deal of difference to any land tunnel, it just means the track either side does not have as steep a gradient.

It did when they had to dig intermediate shafts along its length: you can spot the line of lots of canal and rail tunnels from the spoil heaps across the ground above, even when they have not been kept in use as ventilation shafts.
P.s. there is also a trade-off between tunnel length (and expense) and the severity and length of the approach gradients, which would have been a limiting factor in the early days. Not so much now, of course.

 

[furnessvale]

It did when they had to dig intermediate shafts along its length: you can spot the line of lots of canal and rail tunnels from the spoil heaps across the ground above, even when they have not been kept in use as ventilation shafts..

However, it makes no difference to the passengers on a stranded train, unless the intention is to give each a shovel and tell them to dig upwards!

 

[AndrewE]

we're straying a bit OT, but

However, it makes no difference to the passengers on a stranded train, unless the intention is to give each a shovel and tell them to dig upwards!

reminds me that I don't know of any UK rail tunnel with escape facilities other than the Channel Tunnel and the side walkways in the Merseyrail Link, but some at least of the new deep alpine tunnels have access and escape adits dug out into nearby valleys.

 

[Killingworth]

we're straying a bit OT, but
reminds me that I don't know of any UK rail tunnel with escape facilities other than the Channel Tunnel and the side walkways in the Merseyrail Link, but some at least of the new deep alpine tunnels have access and escape adits dug out into nearby valleys.

Which is why reusing any of the old Woodhead tunnels is dead. A new Trans-Pennine fast route would/will have to have twin bore tunnels with sealed inter-connections to allow emergency evacuation, or a third service tunnel. A derailment did occur in Totley tunnel in 1961 and it was fortunate nothing was going the other way at the time.

 

[Ianno87]

we're straying a bit OT, but
reminds me that I don't know of any UK rail tunnel with escape facilities other than the Channel Tunnel and the side walkways in the Merseyrail Link, but some at least of the new deep alpine tunnels have access and escape adits dug out into nearby valleys.

OT, but Shakespeare Tunnel, Folkestone

 

[Killingworth]

It did when they had to dig intermediate shafts along its length: you can spot the line of lots of canal and rail tunnels from the spoil heaps across the ground above, even when they have not been kept in use as ventilation shafts.
P.s. there is also a trade-off between tunnel length (and expense) and the severity and length of the approach gradients, which would have been a limiting factor in the early days. Not so much now, of course.

When Totley Tunnel was built it was under land largely owned by the Duke of Rutland. He stipulated that there should be nothing left above the surface on his land, and if there had to be any work it hadn't to be in the grouse shooting season. The old 6th Duke died during the construction phase and the central airshaft was very definitely on his land and left a large imprint. The nothing left behind was this; https://www.flickr.com/photos/kazzle101/41169947300/ After 5 years of digging it was well behind schedule so they were probably glad to see the end of the job. When the headings from Totley and Padley met they were only 4 inches out of alignment.

From the road at ground level it looks like a beached submarine with conning tower, and it does from the air, too. The tunnel is offset to the side to prevent anything dropping on trains. The lining of the shaft is at least 18 inches thick and it was supported by the brick lined arched cavern below. A story circulates that they found a natural cave at that point, possibly. Varied rock conditions were found and some of the brickwork in the lining is 3 feet thick. There were a lot of underground pockets of water, but the cavern was helpful when construction was underway as 60 foot lengths of rail could be turned there. It's very wet.

This is a record of a totally unauthorised, and unsafe, visit underground to find the cavern; https://testchamber.net/drain-or-train-running-the-totley-tube/