In more ways than one. Not only are some lines / routes closed or with reduced capacity (for example the MML is a 2 track railway south of Radlett today, and the Hendon freight lines are also closed)... but the locos and drivers that work commercial freight in the week are working engineering trains at the weekend. The latter is one reason why there won’t be a wholesale shift of engineering works out of weekends post Covid.
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Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates
- Thread starter Killingworth
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In more ways than one. Not only are some lines / routes closed or with reduced capacity (for example the MML is a 2 track railway south of Radlett today, and the Hendon freight lines are also closed)... but the locos and drivers that work commercial freight in the week are working engineering trains at the weekend. The latter is one reason why there won’t be a wholesale shift of engineering works out of weekends post Covid.
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R
RailUK Forums
They’re not really ‘wasting’ capacity, certainly not around Dore. A set of empties coming from the south back to the quarries only goes through the Dore once, whether it goes straight to the quarries or has a layover in Barrow Hill or wherever along the way.
Nottingham59
Established Member
Good point. I hadn't looked at it that way. Thanks!
Killingworth
Established Member
Wasting is the wrong word. The available network should be used to best effect. It's inevitable that there'll sometimes be conflicts but they can often be avoided.
During the height of lockdowns last year, when passenger services were restricted, a long train of empties came from somewhere in the North West through the Hope Valley and Sheffield to Barrow Hil avoiding all quarries and the cement works. It stood for several minutes between Dore West and Dore Station Junctions. In normal times that would have caused holdups. On that day it didn't. Sensible planning.
furnessvale
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Once again I am forced to ask, why should this be required of freight any more than passengers? Freight travels where and when it is needed. If I were to suggest that passengers be required to travel at weekend, rather than through the week, I would, quite rightly, be laughed out of court.
Killingworth
Established Member
Not sure of the point here. Freight services are booked and do run on Sundays, see last Sunday; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt
And on Saturdays; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5-22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt
The difficulty is the nationwide scatter of engineering work that is at its height on Saturday nights and Sunday mornings.
furnessvale
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The point is, freight, like passengers, must move when it needs to move, not be subject to some arbitrary " let's move that pesky freight out of the way". If that movement is required on a sunday, fair enough.
We had far too much "stick freight in a loop and forget it" in the bad old days. Those days are gone.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
True up to a point, but freight is usually still less time-critical and low-value bulk freight like aggregates is usually least time-critical of all. There's also the distinction between scheduled time and actual time - if the train arrives at a predictable time people can work round it even if it's rather slow, but not knowing when it's going to arrive is much more difficult to deal with.
furnessvale
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Yes. Earlier in this thread the possibility was raised of the lengthened Dore south curve being used to hold freights out of the way so that late running passengers could get by. This is a two way street. Even a train of aggregates can have a street value of £60,000-£120,000. The cost to industry of those aggregates not being available when required will be infinitely more.
When I see an on time freight being pushed out of the way to benefit a late running half empty DMU I am annoyed.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
It is interesting to think about how a lot of aggregates are actually used. There seems to be a widespread impression that there are a couple of stockpiles of tens of thousands of tonnes of stone at both the quarry and the receiving terminal and a few days' delay (e.g. until the weekend) would be neither hear nor there.
In practice, as I heard at a recent conference, the stone on your building site can be 'fresher' than the filling in your lunchtime sandwich. A lot of stone is extracted to order as there isn't a lot of capacity to keep it at the quarry besides the limited capacity of the loading silo. It is certainly expensive to keep putting it down and shovelling it up again, quite apart from contamination and degradation issues.
Many receiving terminals, especially in cities, have very little space for storage. Most building sites in cities have effectively zero space for storage and rely on a lorryload to turn up, go straight into the foundations, mixer or whatever, then the lorry to beetle off to make room for the next one.
In practice, as I heard at a recent conference, the stone on your building site can be 'fresher' than the filling in your lunchtime sandwich. A lot of stone is extracted to order as there isn't a lot of capacity to keep it at the quarry besides the limited capacity of the loading silo. It is certainly expensive to keep putting it down and shovelling it up again, quite apart from contamination and degradation issues.
Many receiving terminals, especially in cities, have very little space for storage. Most building sites in cities have effectively zero space for storage and rely on a lorryload to turn up, go straight into the foundations, mixer or whatever, then the lorry to beetle off to make room for the next one.
Killingworth
Established Member
I sense my point about holding freight services in loops has been misconstrued.
Freight services are important, but usually not time critical to 5 minutes like passenger services. Taking last Thursday at Dore West as a random example several freight trains ran early - on some days they can run even earlier; Freight services at Dore West 20.5.2021 Passenger services aren't allowed to run early, but freight can run as early and far as track remains clear until it can find refuge. (Over half the booked paths weren't used on that day.)
With the two new loops more trains will be able to proceed further forward more often as openings arise. Holding them out of the way as far as they can proceed and then taking advantage of those opportunities must benefit all services.
I am rather more annoyed that I can never get a train from Sheffield to Dore betwen 12.14 and 14.14 because the 13.14 is blocked from stopping by freight paths that are less frequently used than we have blue moons. If I want to go in the Manchester and Hope Valley direction from Dore during that period I'd be getting a train into Sheffield to come back out again. I'd not do that. I'd use my car, as would most other potential rail users, which is why there are a few less people on the DMUs. If I go out in my car instead of the train I'll come back by car too.
Killingworth
Established Member
This stealth project is proceeding and Volker/Story jackets are being seen on the ground. Test drillings were due to start after 22nd June between the existing tracks for the new platform at Dore & Totley station, and at Westview Lane where the lengthened loop/chord will start. So far nothing has been drilled.
Moderator note: some posts moved to https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hope-valley-best-use-of-capacity.219459/; when there some further updates, please report this post with details of what you wish to post and we will reopen the thread at the appropriate time, for discussion relating to Hope Valley capacity scheme updates.
Moderator note: some posts moved to https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hope-valley-best-use-of-capacity.219459/; when there some further updates, please report this post with details of what you wish to post and we will reopen the thread at the appropriate time, for discussion relating to Hope Valley capacity scheme updates.
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Thread reopened.
Killingworth
Established Member
Test drilling started this week for the footbridge tower on Platform 1 at Dore & Totley station. That can only be seen from the car park. Further drilling is due for the tower on new Platform 2 (which will be very visible from the MML) and by Westview Lane where the current cutting will need to be steepened to start the lengthened loop/chord.
There are three Teams meetings by Volker/Story and Network Rail next week for residents living locally at Dore, Hathersage and Bamford. Feedback so far on that is that most local residents won't use Teams, but they will have had the chance!
There are three Teams meetings by Volker/Story and Network Rail next week for residents living locally at Dore, Hathersage and Bamford. Feedback so far on that is that most local residents won't use Teams, but they will have had the chance!
Killingworth
Established Member
Network Rail have submitted a planning application for approval of the new footbridge at Dore & Totley. Just go this search page and add the reference 21/03385/COND1 to see all the details; https://planningapps.sheffield.gov....earch.do?action=simple&searchType=Application
Illustrations below from the application, copyright Mott MacDonald.
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Killingworth
Established Member
Should be fixed, then just copy in the reference to search for full details.
WestRiding
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Looks very smart.
Could solar panels (help) power the lifts and/or lights?
To the East and South the hills rise steeply to 170m+ and to the West less steeply to 400m+ (and even to the north 150m+).
Bradway, Dore South and Totley tunnels are there for a reason.
Probably no sunshine at all for most of the year.
That sounds like a 'probably not' then!
Thank you.
Gostav
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Is possible have through loop / sidings？
Killingworth
Established Member
Wrong! It's usually a little sun trap. Popular with rail enthusiasts of all ages who visit from far away.
However the standard Network Rail footbridge doesn't, currently at least, include standard solar panels. It's been hard enough to get this scheme off the ground as it is - see the planning links above and you'll find the first Network Rail approach to the Sheffield planners was in 2005. Those of us wanting to see it completed don't want any complications that might delay it in any way.
adrock1976
Established Member
It has been mentioned before that Dore & Totley used to have more platforms before 1985 than the sole platform it has today.
Was there ever a platform on the South Curve side of the station? I am thinking it would be useful in the future to have a platform there, which would allow the third limited stop service along the Hope Valley to run Manchester Pic - Nottingham, calling Stockport (or New Mills Central), Chinley, Dore & Totley, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Toton Interchange, Beeston, and Nottingham (or Belper, Derby, Beeston, Nottingham).
Don't think there has. Unlikely a platform would be built due to the curvature so unlikely to meet modern safety standards and it would essentially be a separate station across a road. It would be at least a 350m walk away from the existing platform a much longer walk between platforms than existing triangular stations at Shipley and Earlestown.
If Manchester were to get another service to the East Midlands I'd like to see a link to Derby and Leicester as these must be two of the biggest cities without a direct service to Manchester, rather than an extra Nottingham service. Could even be an extension of the current Birmingham to Leicester if capacity at Leicester a problem.
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The other issue with a platform on the south curve is the gradient.
Killingworth
Established Member
And the little matter of Dore Tunnel!
WestRiding
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I was just about to point out the Tunnel. You bet me to it.
As a student much of our UoS fieldwork was spent on (and in) the woods in the area between the railway and Beauchief Hall.
These woodlands contain some of the least disturbed areas in Sheffield and the range of species in the mature woodland responds(amongst other things) to level of light which increases with altitude.
Luckily plants seem to know more about micro-climate than rail enthusiasts
Even if it was a suntrap, length of exposure to bright light is more important than direct sunlight.
Think the curve and gradient more prohibitive than the tunnel. There is easily enough room for 100m platforms North of the tunnel.
Dore and Totley really needs a second hourly train to Sheffield and a (peak time at least) through service to Leeds, neither of which would be achieved with a station on the south curve.