Hope Valley route: What improvements would you like to see?

[Whistler40145]

Could line speeds be increased, especially if New Mills Junction was simplified with higher speed points?

Could the Hazel Grove Chord be doubled, to enable more passenger and freight trains?

 

[yorksrob]

Could the Hazel Grove Chord be doublEd, to enable more passenger and freight trains?

It looks very tight going round there.

 

[Whistler40145]

If services didn’t have to cross over the station throat at Manchester Piccadilly, several services could be routed via Ashburys and Romiley

 

[Ianno87]

Could line speeds be increased, especially if New Mills Junction was simplified with higher speed points?

Does strike me as an opportunity for a more efficient junction than the somewhat "historic" layout, when it is due for renewal.

Could the Hazel Grove Chord be doublEd, to enable more passenger and freight trains?

It looks very tight going round there.

Aside from the geometric constraints (I doubt the chord could be doubled without land take and pretty hefty modifications to Hazel Grove station), it would give precisely zero capacity benefit as Stockport and Edgeley Junctions are full.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could the Hazel Grove Chord be doublEd, to enable more passenger and freight trains?

Not without land take, and it wouldn’t enable more trains to run.

 

[Greybeard33]

Aside from the geometric constraints (I doubt the chord could be doubled without land take and pretty hefty modifications to Hazel Grove station), it would give precisely zero capacity benefit as Stockport and Edgeley Junctions are full.

Not without land take, and it wouldn’t enable more trains to run.

Is there any realistic prospect of finding a path into Manchester for a third fast service before HS2? The Marple route is pretty near full too.

 

[Hey 3]

Improvements I would like to see on the Hope Valley Line
Dore and Totley new platforms (inc on the MML) plus redoubling and quadrifying northwards after (inc on the MML)
Electrification(obviously) from Hazel Grove/Ashburys/Guide Bridge(or Hyde North) being merged with MML wiring
Passing loop at Bamford
Chinley bay platform(to allow local stoppers and peak services to terminate there)

 

[yorksrob]

Is the stopper still only every two hours some days ?

If so, this needs to be hourly IMO.

 

[Hey 3]

Is the stopper still only every two hours some days ?

If so, this needs to be hourly IMO.

Agreed.

 

[Killingworth]

Is the stopper still only every two hours some days ?

If so, this needs to be hourly IMO.

The stopper is hourly with many skipping stops to clear booked freight paths.

As an example the 13.14 out of Sheffield doesn't stop at Dore to avoid freight paths that may have been used only once in the last 6 months. In the evening there's a 2 hour 33 minute gap in services from Sheffield to Dore as one train skips and the next has to depart late to avoid freights.

So yes, the stopper may well seem to be 2 hourly at some stations, but it's a basic hourly inconsistent pattern and it can catch even regular users out!

 

[yorksrob]

The stopper is hourly with many skipping stops to clear booked freight paths.

As an example the 13.14 out of Sheffield doesn't stop at Dore to avoid freight paths that may have been used only once in the last 6 months. In the evening there's a 2 hour 33 minute gap in services from Sheffield to Dore as one train skips and the next has to depart late to avoid freights.

So yes, the stopper may well seem to be 2 hourly at some stations, but it's a basic hourly inconsistent pattern and it can catch even regular users out!

Thanks for the explanation !

I wonder if, on summer Saturdays for example, theres any scope for making the stopper half hourly, by connecting to another service at Chinley, or maybe Stockport ?

Could be good for the tourist trade.

 

[Killingworth]

Is there any realistic prospect of finding a path into Manchester for a third fast service before HS2? The Marple route is pretty near full too.

Simple partial answer, continue the current stopper to New Mills then non stop to Sheffield. Or just continue with skip stopping at maybe Chinley, Hope and Dore.

That gives 4 hourly services between Sheffield and Manchester. Something about cutting your coat to match your cloth!

For passenger capacity just add more carriages.

Current users would greatly appreciate all timetabled trains to actually run, and a lot closer to time. Too many fail on these criteria, which then results in overcrowding on the others. Achieving reliability may be more important than speed for now.

4 tracking into Sheffield and restoring 4 platforms at Dore come within the Sheffield MPs Restoring your Railways bid for the Sheaf Valley - and that thread!

That's complicated by HS2 intending to use the route and planned to be 3 track from Dore. I foresee creeping sections of extra tracks as MML electrification and city centre redevelopment all become entwined!

 

[30907]

Could line speeds be increased, especially if New Mills Junction was simplified with higher speed points?

New Mills Junction can hardly be simplified further.
It would be difficult to justify rebuilding for higher speed for 1 (or even 2) stopping trains per hour plus freights (even though there are a lot of freight paths via New Mills C).

Resignalling and rebuilding Dore would be my priorities.

 

[Ianno87]

New Mills Junction can hardly be simplified further.
It would be difficult to justify rebuilding for higher speed for 1 (or even 2) stopping trains per hour plus freights (even though there are a lot of freight paths via New Mills C).

Logically, you'd lose the Sheffield-bound loop, and then use the space to provide some faster turnouts, with flashing aspects on approach etc.

It would only likely stack up when the junction/signalling is due for renewal.

 

[edwin_m]

Logically, you'd lose the Sheffield-bound loop, and then use the space to provide some faster turnouts, with flashing aspects on approach etc.

It would only likely stack up when the junction/signalling is due for renewal.

I'd have thought losing the loop was a bad idea given the problems of interaction between passenger and freight. Does it get much use? Though maybe an alternative could be provided somewhere on the former four-track section to Chinley.

 

[Tomnick]

New Mills Junction can hardly be simplified further.
It would be difficult to justify rebuilding for higher speed for 1 (or even 2) stopping trains per hour plus freights (even though there are a lot of freight paths via New Mills C).

Resignalling and rebuilding Dore would be my priorities.

It’s already 35mph over New Mills South, and that’s closely followed by 20mph through the tightly curved tunnel between there and New Mills Central, so I can’t think that you’d save more than a few seconds anyway. Flashing yellows might be easier to justify - they’d certainly help - but I’m sure you could do that without changing the track layout or indeed the rest of the signalling at all.

 

[palmersears]

I'd have thought losing the loop was a bad idea given the problems of interaction between passenger and freight. Does it get much use?

It must see some use, as it’s not a complete rust fest, but in the four years I’ve been in New Mills and casually observing the comings and goings through the town I can’t recall seeing it used. Most freight just waits on the main line from New Mills Central if required and then snakes onto the Hope Valley proper. I don’t know it’s official length, but it doesn’t seem to be long enough for most freight anyway?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The stopper is hourly with many skipping stops to clear booked freight paths.

As an example the 13.14 out of Sheffield doesn't stop at Dore to avoid freight paths that may have been used only once in the last 6 months. In the evening there's a 2 hour 33 minute gap in services from Sheffield to Dore as one train skips and the next has to depart late to avoid freights.

So yes, the stopper may well seem to be 2 hourly at some stations, but it's a basic hourly inconsistent pattern and it can catch even regular users out!

Ouch!

Any ideas what is the minimum that would need to be done to allow the stopper to have a clockface timetable with all trains calling at all stations? Could simply finding some faster-accelerating stock allow it?

 

[Killingworth]

Ouch!

Any ideas what is the minimum that would need to be done to allow the stopper to have a clockface timetable with all trains calling at all stations? Could simply finding some faster-accelerating stock allow it?

Those of us along the route have been asking very similar questions for decades!

The issue is trains across Dore West, Dore South and Dore Station Jinctions, with Dore West currently the most critical. That triangle of conflicts is then compounded by the 6 minute section through Totley Tunnel immediately to the west.

The removal of Pacers is going to allow the out of pattern 8.33 from Sheffield to stop additionally at Dore from May. Then non stop to Edale to get out the way of freight paths. It's Northern's fastest end to end service of the day aa it tries to catch up with the normal hourly departure that would start from Sheffield at 8.14.

Maybe when 195s are established on a regular basis more can be done to eliminate a few more skips but without the redobubling through Dore & Totley very little more. W

Of course a few more stops from the currently all but empty fast services might be another option, but that is not favoured by those wanting quicker end to end times.

 

[cle]

What was actually approved the other week? That's a good starting point for elimination, and what that unlocks in itself.

Funnily enough, given Stockport being full (and capacity better used for longer, electric trains, frankly) - I did think in the Guide Bridge thread that a switch to the Met for Glossop/Marple might enable that to be a better fast Hope Valley route for at least 1tph.

 

[Killingworth]

What was actually approved the other week? That's a good starting point for elimination, and what that unlocks in itself.

Funnily enough, given Stockport being full (and capacity better used for longer, electric trains, frankly) - I did think in the Guide Bridge thread that a switch to the Met for Glossop/Marple might enable that to be a better fast Hope Valley route for at least 1tph.

Unfortunately there isn't a quick answer other than;

• Redoubling tracks between Dore Station and Dore West Junctions
• Extending the chord between Dore West and Dore South Junctions to form a freight loop
• Restoring a second platform for westbound passenger services at Dore & Totley station with lift served footbridge
• Adding an eastbound freight loop to the east of Bamford station
• Transferring signalling control from Manchester to York for the tracks between (but not including) Earles Sidings to Dore West
• Altering signalling on down Heeley loop to allow it to accept longer trains
• A new footbridge west of Hathersage to replace a pedestrian operated crossing on public right of way.

For the full answer you'd need to look at the 224 page summary submitted to the 2016 public inquiry, and a massive box of further supporting data, plus the various alterations since. The basics haven't changed significantly.

Essentially, what needs doing now is to get it all into place.

Then we can look at the next stages, like;

• Electrification!
• Resignalling west of Bamford,including Earles
• Crossover west of Earles to allow easier access, eliminating the need to reverse in.
• Tackle the 6 minute block through the Totley Tunnel
• More loops or bi-directional sections

For anyone with the patience I'd attach the Consultation Pack from January 2015 but the file is too big. The Q & As from that time are still helpful

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Maybe when 195s are established on a regular basis more can be done to eliminate a few more skips but without the redobubling through Dore & Totley very little more. W

Of course a few more stops from the currently all but empty fast services might be another option, but that is not favoured by those wanting quicker end to end times.

OK thanks. Are you saying, more redoubling is required than the work that has now been given funding?

 

[edwin_m]

OK thanks. Are you saying, more redoubling is required than the work that has now been given funding?

With the work as planned, it will all be double except the Hazel Grove Chord, which as someone probably posted already would be very difficult due to the alignment and proximity to a graveyard.

 

[Killingworth]

OK thanks. Are you saying, more redoubling is required than the work that has now been given funding?

Quadrupling or trebling from Dore into Sheffield might help. The Heeley up and down loops help but HS2 pencils in 3 tracks down the Sheaf Valley. That might mean 4 tracks where there are now 3 but no detailed plans as far as I know. However there is a bid to the restoring your railway fund that includes 4 tracking down the Sheaf Valley.and more stations. I doubt that will happen, but examination of some of the parts might bring forward 3 or 4 tracking.

There was a plan for a third loop at Chinley but that was deemed unnecessary for the numbers of trains that are likely to be operated. More track means more junctions to control with signals and points to be maintained.

It has been suggested that a shorter passenger passing loop at somewhere near Hope might help, but that's totally speculative.

 

[Jozhua]

Quadrupling or trebling from Dore into Sheffield might help. The Heeley up and down loops help but HS2 pencils in 3 tracks down the Sheaf Valley. That might mean 4 tracks where there are now 3 but no detailed plans as far as I know. However there is a bid to the restoring your railway fund that includes 4 tracking down the Sheaf Valley.and more stations. I doubt that will happen, but examination of some of the parts might bring forward 3 or 4 tracking.

There was a plan for a third loop at Chinley but that was deemed unnecessary for the numbers of trains that are likely to be operated. More track means more junctions to control with signals and points to be maintained.

It has been suggested that a shorter passenger passing loop at somewhere near Hope might help, but that's totally speculative.

I wanted to respond to the conversation we were having in the other thread about a using the Loop at Dore for passenger services.

I have a proposal which would greatly benefit Dore, but also provide a very convenient transfer for those travelling towards the Northwest from south on the MML - adding two platforms on either side of the MML tracks to allow services to stop there. Then passengers can change at Dore for services to Manchester, versus at Sheffield. I know it sounds kind of crazy, but if we want to expand local service once HS2 comes online, this would be a great way of expanding regional connectivity, whilst not really disadvantaging any area. If Dore station was given some basic facilities, waiting rooms, toilets and some vending machines, I'd be more than happy to change there. With three express services to Manchester per hour, you wouldn't be waiting any more than 20 minutes after changing from a MML service. Plus, it would make parts of Derbyshire like Edale much better connected to the rest of the county.

Midlands Engine rail plans seems to rely on Classic Compatible HS2 services running through the area(joining at Chesterfield), so perhaps those would still run express, however services running on the current route via Derby could perhaps stop at Dore. In fact, I'd advocate for those trains stopping at Duffield, Belper and Ambergate to expand the connectivity of those locations northwards. Ambergate would act as a transfer point for people arriving from Matlock. (Once the line is not being used for London/XC express services.)

Consider now travelling from Belper to Manchester by train. First you travel into Derby, to then catch a train doubling back on yourself that whole distance. Then you pass by Dore into Sheffield, to double back on yourself out of Sheffield, finally on your way to Manchester. You've probably done 30 miles extra and added almost an hour onto your journey time, including changes. (Btw, even compared to the buses, this is the fastest way to do it.)

 

[Killingworth]

I wanted to respond to the conversation we were having in the other thread about a using the Loop at Dore for passenger services.

I have a proposal which would greatly benefit Dore, but also provide a very convenient transfer for those travelling towards the Northwest from south on the MML - adding two platforms on either side of the MML tracks to allow services to stop there. Then passengers can change at Dore for services to Manchester, versus at Sheffield. I know it sounds kind of crazy, but if we want to expand local service once HS2 comes online, this would be a great way of expanding regional connectivity, whilst not really disadvantaging any area. If Dore station was given some basic facilities, waiting rooms, toilets and some vending machines, I'd be more than happy to change there. With three express services to Manchester per hour, you wouldn't be waiting any more than 20 minutes after changing from a MML service. Plus, it would make parts of Derbyshire like Edale much better connected to the rest of the county.

Midlands Engine rail plans seems to rely on Classic Compatible HS2 services running through the area(joining at Chesterfield), so perhaps those would still run express, however services running on the current route via Derby could perhaps stop at Dore. In fact, I'd advocate for those trains stopping at Duffield, Belper and Ambergate to expand the connectivity of those locations northwards. Ambergate would act as a transfer point for people arriving from Matlock. (Once the line is not being used for London/XC express services.)

Consider now travelling from Belper to Manchester by train. First you travel into Derby, to then catch a train doubling back on yourself that whole distance. Then you pass by Dore into Sheffield, to double back on yourself out of Sheffield, finally on your way to Manchester. You've probably done 30 miles extra and added almost an hour onto your journey time, including changes. (Btw, even compared to the buses, this is the fastest way to do it.)

Until 1969 there were 4 active platforms at Dore doing exactly what you suggest and with large waiting rooms, toilets and a W H Smith's shop. Restoring those platforms is part of Sheffield MPs bid to restore 4 tracks into Sheffield and reopen stations at Heeley, Millhouses and Beauchief.

That's already got its own thread.

 

[Killingworth]

There are days when you wonder if the railway thinks things through. The Sheaf Valley route into Sheffield from Dore was blocked today for engineeering work. Improved alternative services are needed along the Hope Valley.

TPE South Pennine services diverted via Huddersfield, East Midlands Liverpool - Norwich/Nottingham went via the Dore curve to miss out Dore and Sheffield. Fair enough.

Sundays are one of the busiest days for leisure travel from Sheffield into the Peak District. Sadly Northern services from Piccadilly were terminated at Hathersage with Andrews operating large coaches between Bamford and Sheffield. Bamford to Sheffield takes 23 minutes by train. It takes 50 minutes by Rail Replacement Bus. The Andrews coach was timed to take 15 minutes to Dore instead of 7 or 8 minutes by train.

We saw several of those journeys as we walked today and couldn't spot a single passenger aboard any of them - although there may have been one or two, surely. That's not surprising. The existence of the buses and their times was not immediately apparent to anyone calling at the stations, let alone where the bus would stop.

However, that bus wasn't necessary. The line was available for use through to Dore where the large station car park was all but empty. TM Travel's 218 runs hourly from Sheffield Interchange and stops at the same stop as Andrews rail replacement at Dore. The 97/98 run every 30 minutes from Sheffield city centre. If the Andrews bus had to be run why not just shuttle to and from Dore with transfer to train at that point? It could have been as quick, maybe quicker, to Manchester than by TPE!

 

[yorksrob]

That's an interesting point. I would have thought Dore station would have been ideal to turn around a train under the circumstances.

I assume they must have had a reason not to.

 

[zwk500]

Possible reasons include:
- No facilities suitable (including disabled-accessible) for the expected number of people waiting to transfer between road/rail
- possession limits being the signal controlling departure from Dore station meaning a passenger train can't be signalled beyond Dore west towards Sheffield.
- Station access not suitable for the number and type of buses required.
- Shift lengths for the longer journey would put staff over hours.
- longer journey means more units required than could be released because of other diversionary plans.
- Single line reoccupation meant compliant train plan not possible

I don't know if any of these reasons was why, or there was something else.

 

[Killingworth]

Possible reasons include:
- No facilities suitable (including disabled-accessible) for the expected number of people waiting to transfer between road/rail
- possession limits being the signal controlling departure from Dore station meaning a passenger train can't be signalled beyond Dore west towards Sheffield.
- Station access not suitable for the number and type of buses required.
- Shift lengths for the longer journey would put staff over hours.
- longer journey means more units required than could be released because of other diversionary plans.
- Single line reoccupation meant compliant train plan not possible

I don't know if any of these reasons was why, or there was something else

During the period when trains through Sheffield were disrupted due to the cement train derailment Northern services were terminated at Dore so it can be done.

On disabled access it's no worse than many other stations with big gaps from carriage door to platform. Only one platform to worry about at present so no bridges.

There's a height barrier on the car park but it's almost permanently locked open to allow deliveries to the restaurant in the old station building, A tight turn, but regular bus services pass the station into Sheffield (3 per hour on Sundays) so only need for a special bus would be to match timings.

Network Rail sometimes use a large gate alongside the station entrance to access tracks. That wasn't being used yesterday but the availability may have been the cause.

Whatever, on a busy day in the Peak Distict there were at least two large coaches trundling up and down adding more congestion and pollution for minimal benefit to the public.

Why didn't trains terminate at Grindleford rather than Hathersage? That might have conflicted with continued operation of freight and the Liverpool-Norwich services.

Why run the bus from Bamford? Because there's a bus turning circle near the station.

But that's part of the reason why the bus is hardly used. It doesn't stop near enough to the stations and isn't advertised well enough to explain where and when it goes.