How are you going to deal with Climate Change?

[Techniquest]

It's not about air travel being only for the rich, more about prices reflecting actual externalised costs. It's too easy and too cheap to hop on a plane at a whim for stag/hen nights, weekend city breaks, etc. Things that could, and should, be done closer to home.

Agreed. A lot of places, yes air travel is the most realistic option. I would struggle to get to Santorini, for example, and back within a reasonable timescale doing it without a flight. Of course, that's just one Euro example, many places around the world can't exactly be accessed without flights. If a journey can be done by rail, within a reasonable amount of time, then that is something we should aim to do. More expensive, but less damaging, a longer journey but better for the planet. Worth it!

I do wonder, if things ever do evolve to knock out the cheap flights to party destinations, how things would pan out for the likes of Ryanair and easyJet. If it meant Ryanair was removed from our skies, would that really be a bad thing? Maybe it'll all turn out to be just as well Heathrow didn't get its third runway, and that the plans to link Heathrow by rail at the southern and western ends haven't panned out.

 

[102 fan]

It's not about air travel being only for the rich, more about prices reflecting actual externalised costs. It's too easy and too cheap to hop on a plane at a whim for stag/hen nights, weekend city breaks, etc. Things that could, and should, be done closer to home.

No, No, No. You cannot now start dictating who can and who cannot fly.

Try stepping into the real world and tell the population 'You're only allowed one holiday a year, no more flying after that.' I'm sure most would tell you where to stick that concept. If seeing people face to face is better, then 'ordinary' people can travel too.

 

[najaB]

No, No, No. You cannot now start dictating who can and who cannot fly.

Try stepping into the real world and tell the population 'You're only allowed one holiday a year, no more flying after that.' I'm sure most would tell you where to stick that concept. If seeing people face to face is better, then 'ordinary' people can travel too.

It's a good thing then that I never suggested anything of the sort. I'm glad we're agreed on that.

 

[NSEFAN]

No, No, No. You cannot now start dictating who can and who cannot fly.

Try stepping into the real world and tell the population 'You're only allowed one holiday a year, no more flying after that.' I'm sure most would tell you where to stick that concept. If seeing people face to face is better, then 'ordinary' people can travel too.

"Restrictions" on flying would be in the form of higher prices, as opposed to an actual ban. That way you have passengers paying the true cost of their journey, environmental harm included.

People who could no longer afford to fly would just have to holiday domestically. There's no shortage of destinations in the UK to visit. Indeed, once upon a time flying was very expensive and most people had no choice but to stay in the UK. It's easy to imagine those days coming back, perhaps even regenerating run down seaside resorts now that people are visiting en masse and bringing their money with them.

 

[102 fan]

It's a good thing then that I never suggested anything of the sort. I'm glad we're agreed on that.

When you saud 'close to home', just how close did you mean?

 

[najaB]

When you saud 'close to home', just how close did you mean?

As close or as far as the real prices of travel would allow. Air travel is a lot cheaper than it should be due to the externalising of many of its costs (noise, pollution, etc.), not to mention that aviation fuel is typically not taxed.

 

[Techniquest]

It's a good thing then that I never suggested anything of the sort. I'm glad we're agreed on that.

Indeed, pretty sure that was clear so how the other person misunderstood you I have no idea.

I'd be interested in seeing some data on how much a typical London to Barcelona flight would cost in real terms. In comparison to the price Ryanair charge, I would imagine the difference is quite significant.

 

[reddragon]

I remember reading about climate change and seeing it on the news in the 1980’s and in those days all of the talk was quite positive on about what we needed to do. Personally, I started insulating my first house reducing heating demand by 75%.

What has happened since then, is that the fossil / mining industry has undermined technological development that doesn’t suit them, created denial, doubt, delay and now that it’s too late so let’s give up!

In my current house, I have gradually over the years insulated it from an EPC of G down to and EPC of A, and no I haven’t finished yet. The payback has been incredible. In 2011, out came my oil central heating and in went biomass. The last time I paid for heating was an oil delivery in November 2010 thanks to low running costs and the RHI grant and that includes the full installation cost of the system. Also, in 2011 I added Solar Thermal that gives me 3 months of free heat per year. Eventually I shall switch to a heat pump once my biomass boiler expires.

I always wanted an electric car. It’s like switching from a class 31 & Mk1’s to an EMU. The legacy industries bought up & shut down battery development, blocked EVs to line their own pockets. If Tesla had not come along, EVs would not now be happening. Technology is about a will to progress, whereas we suffer from the old rich holding onto their legacy.

I got my first EV in 2016, added solar PV in 2019 with power diverters for car charging and heating. I have had no electricity or car fuel bills since. This summer I drove to Portugal in my EV.

You will here a lot about technology not being possible, being years away or the future & unaffordable. Maybe I live in a different year to most people, but already an ICE powered vehicle is to me like a steam engine, a museum exhibit. I have no direct use of oil or gas whatsoever, but of course I cannot control secondary uses . . . yet!

Having weaned myself of direct consumption of fossil fuels, no I don’t fly anymore, I have moved to secondary sources of fossil fuels. That is a big challenge.



I have read up thread about the impossible changes, aviation being one. Yes, reducing flights in particular of frequent flyers is a start but staycationing is not for me so I have had to compromise.

This is the carefully crafted story that the oil / avaiation industry will tell you. Avgas (aviation fuel) has 40 times the energy per KG than a battery, therefore you need 40 times the weight in batteries making electric flight impossible. This is VERY misleading and a lie. Whilst it is true that Avgas has 40 times the energy density of a battery, that is where honesty ends. This is how the energy trail works: -

1 – The conversion of electricity from stored energy in a battery to thrust is 4 times as efficient as converting Avgas to thrust. So 40x the weight becomes 10x the weight.

2 – Hanging heavy jet engines under a huge wing creates a lot of drag on wing surfaces, wing tips etc. Placing light electric motors on wing leading edges and bigger ones on wing tips and pushing from the rear halves drag. Overall changes halve the energy required to propel the plane along. 10x the weight becomes 5x the weight.

3 – The weight reduction by removing the heavy jet engines and systems further improves efficiency. We are now at 4x the weight. You can add solar generating surfaces too, as you are above the clouds!

4 – At the current rate of battery development, battery KWh per KG will soon double. We are now at 2x the weight



As an electric plane will have a similar capital cost to a jet plane, will have a 90% reduction in running costs and the fact that already we have airliners capable of flying 20,000 miles, then making an electric airliner capable of most short and medium haul flights is already within our technological capability.

Why has this not happened? Much of the world’s wealth is held by older people who made it from mining & fossil fuels. Do you really think they want change?



The same philosophy applies to a diesel locos. Long upthread there was talk about the need for batteries so large it was impossible. Again, once you allow for greater efficiency at 4x, regen braking, the removal of diesel engine, generator etc and battery efficiency you end up with a loco capable of many tasks. There maybe a while where double heading is required as during the early days of diesel, but in the 1950’s a double header diesel train was better than steam as today a double header battery loco is better that a huge polluting diesel locos.

You may have fallen for the denial or doubt, but you choose a smart phone over a Nokia brick. An EV is that smart car next to a Nokia brick ICE car and so on. Stop falling for the greed of rich industrialists as only they benefit from it not us. You may not care about your future, but I am sure you do about the young people in your life!

 

[Dai Corner]

You may have fallen for the denial or doubt, but you choose a smart phone over a Nokia brick. An EV is that smart car next to a Nokia brick ICE car and so on. Stop falling for the greed of rich industrialists as only they benefit from it not us. You may not care about your future, but I am sure you do about the young people in your life!

Isn't Tesla owner Elon Musk one of the world's richest industrialists? And haven't wealthy landowners become even wealthier by harvesting subsidies for allowing wind turbines to be built on their land?

There's plenty of money to be made from the 'climate crisis', even if some on the Left want to blame it on capitalism.

 

[reddragon]

Isn't Tesla owner Elon Musk one of the world's richest industrialists? And haven't wealthy landowners become even wealthier by harvesting subsidies for allowing wind turbines to be built on their land?

There's plenty of money to be made from the 'climate crisis', even if some on the Left want to blame it on capitalism.

Elon Musk made his money from IT and in particular Paypal beforehand. His huge wealth today comes from Tesla and SpaceX. He even now powers his rockets from Methane instead of fossil fuels.

Land owners in the UK have universally blocked wind turbines, which is why the UK builds most of them offshore thus benefitting the tax payer.

Of course there is plenty of money in the 'green revolution' and it will drive our economy forwards.

It is easy for the left to blame capitalism, simply because Capitalism is about stable legacy growth and not about revolutionary change. Why would a Capitalist company profiting from oil, gas or mining want change? If we had a strong Government with inspirational leadership there would long have been strong moves to the green technology years ago allowing the strengths of Capitalism to create the solution. Instead it's been about protection of legacy, old industries exposing the weaknesses of Capitalism. In a similar way the Left sought to protect dying industries in the 1970s-80s in a disastrous manner.

Both Capitalism and Socialism can equally provide the solutions required, just in different ways but only if they play to their strengths and not their weaknesses.

 

[chorleyjeff]

By living the good life whilst I can.
There's no point in me as a 30 year old planning for a conventional retirement.

The situation now is beyond any hope of recovery. In 40 years time we will all be either burning, starving, drowning or fighting off the people who are.

That's a good excuse for spend spend spend. But based on what evidence other than group think encouraged by the climate change industry ?

 

[Dai Corner]

Land owners in the UK have universally blocked wind turbines, which is why the UK builds most of them offshore thus benefitting the tax payer.

I'll think you find there is more UK onshore wind generation capacity than offshore.

It is easy for the left to blame capitalism, simply because Capitalism is about stable legacy growth and not about revolutionary change. Why would a Capitalist company profiting from oil, gas or mining want change? If we had a strong Government with inspirational leadership there would long have been strong moves to the green technology years ago allowing the strengths of Capitalism to create the solution. Instead it's been about protection of legacy, old industries exposing the weaknesses of Capitalism. In a similar way the Left sought to protect dying industries in the 1970s-80s in a disastrous manner.

Wasn't is capitalism that led to such revolutionary changes as the factories, canals, railways, electricity, telecommunications, the internal combustion engine and many more innovations? The companies that didn't adapt died and new ones took over. That's how capitalism works.

Private capital is now building wind farms to partially replace the state-funded power stations built in the 50s-70s.

 

[reddragon]

I'll think you find there is more UK onshore wind generation capacity than offshore.

Wasn't is capitalism that led to such revolutionary changes as the factories, canals, railways, electricity, telecommunications, the internal combustion engine and many more innovations? The companies that didn't adapt died and new ones took over. That's how capitalism works.

Private capital is now building wind farms to partially replace the state-funded power stations built in the 50s-70s.

Onshore wind construction has virtually stopped, land owners even persuaded the government to make it near impossible to achieve with bogus environmental claims. 99% of construction is now off shore. So yes once on shore once dominated but no longer.

The legacy industries at the time fought against change. Land owners blocked canals & railways. In New York the huge successful electric taxi fleets was wiped out by big oil, as were street cars in the 1950's for their own profit and not the wider good or economy. Capitalism can bring good change but currently it's preventing it. The worst case of this is in Australia.

The problem we have at this time is that too high a proportion of wealth and control is with big oil, gas & mining thus causing Capitalism to fail. Green investors are buying into these industries to direct change. Capitalism can succeed but a step change is required now or we'll end up on a very damaged planet wide environment sooner than you might like!

 

[najaB]

Wasn't is capitalism that led to such revolutionary changes as the factories, canals, railways, electricity, telecommunications, the internal combustion engine and many more innovations? The companies that didn't adapt died and new ones took over. That's how capitalism works.

The issue isn't capitalism, it's short-term ism. Too many businesses focus on this year's financial statement and the next shareholder meeting, rather than taking the long-term view. This isn't unique to capitalism, just look at the destruction of the Aral Sea in order to meet the cotton targets set under the USSR's five year plans.

It is possible to combine long-term thinking and capitalism. Just look at Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway. He's consistently beaten the market and doesn't invest in any company without first looking to see where it will be in twenty to thirty years.

 

[Dai Corner]

The legacy industries at the time fought against change. Land owners blocked canals & railways. In New York the huge successful electric taxi fleets was wiped out by big oil, as were street cars in the 1950's for their own profit and not the wider good or economy. Capitalism can bring good change but currently it's preventing it. The worst case of this is in Australia.

The electric car / taxi was a better product than steam or horse power. A sensible decision for city transport around 1900.

Once oil production had been commercialised and mass-production of cars started the petrol engine became a better, cheaper alternative with which electric cars could not compete. 'Big oil' didn't set out in a predatory way to destroy the electric car; they simply offered a far better product.

The IC vehicle is still a better product a century later, other than from the tailpipe emissions and taxation points of view.

The problem we have at this time is that too high a proportion of wealth and control is with big oil, gas & mining thus causing Capitalism to fail. Green investors are buying into these industries to direct change. Capitalism can succeed but a step change is required now or we'll end up on a very damaged planet wide environment sooner than you might like!

What are oil, gas and mining companies doing to prevent better alternatives being developed and sold?

 

[najaB]

What are oil, gas and mining companies doing to prevent better alternatives being developed and sold?

For one thing they are funding many of the climate-change denial groups, which has the effect of suppressing investment in green tech companies.

 

[Dai Corner]

For one thing they are funding many of the climate-change denial groups, which has the effect of suppressing investment in green tech companies.

Are you suggesting that views you disagree with should be suppressed?

 

[najaB]

Are you suggesting that views you disagree with should be suppressed?

No, of course not. However, as it says in the article I linked to, the energy companies have gone out of their way to: (a) suppress good science; (b) promote bad science; and (c) disguise their involvement in both.

 

[Dai Corner]

No, of course not. However, as it says in the article I linked to, the energy companies have gone out of their way to: (a) suppress good science; (b) promote bad science; and (c) disguise their involvement in both.

Much as some of those of who are terrified of the climate changing, want to use it to force societal change, stand to benefit from a reduction in the use of hydrocarbons do or have other agendas do.

 

[Starmill]

I very rarely travel by car or by air. I have been paying for tree planting at around £5/month for a couple of years. I never eat meat or fish and I'm moving to an entirely animal-free lifestyle slowly over time. I attempt to reject waste where I have a practical choice but to do so, for example, to prepare a cup of tea I pour water into a cup, then heat that in the kettle so I have just the right amount. I attempt to use consumer disposables less, especially things like plates and cutlery, but this one is tricky. I attempt to choose consumer products which appear to be lower in their carbon cost, for example I have 100% recycled toilet paper. And finally I vote, every time I'm eligible, and with atmospheric carbon and climate change policy front of my mind.

 

[colchesterken]

I found it easy to give up flying, sure I like holidays in the sun, Eurostar to Paris, Train to South of France, same train terminates at Barcelona, Takes 4 hrs from Paris upstairs window view all the farms and villages to see @ 300kmh enjoy the ride everytime
I prefer it to the aggro of airports, you can take as much luggage as you can carry/wheel

 

[reddragon]

The IC vehicle is still a better product a century later, other than from the tailpipe emissions and taxation points of view.

What are oil, gas and mining companies doing to prevent better alternatives being developed and sold?

You clearly have never owned an EV. 98% of those who take one for a test drive convert and never go back. They are cheaper to own, better to drive, last much longer, much more useful tech, safer in many ways, the list is endless. They hold all of the performance, reliability and many speed records. Pikes Peak, most tracks including Nuremberg. I no longer having the displeasure of a cold frozen car in the morning, endless maintenance and visits to Petrol stations, I can't quite grasp how you think an IC could in any remaining way be better? Enlighten me! Just to head you off with charging times / availability. 95% of charging is done at home, at night and public charging has overtaken Petrol station availability. Batteries last 25 years in a car then as grid storage and can be recycled. Oil refining uses more Cobalt than a battery etc

The oil & gas industry are 100% complicit in our current crisis. After 10 years of leading climate research (1977-1987) they realised the damage they were causing and transferred all investment from research to denial, delay, buying up and shutting down research for renewable and lobbying. You should read up about the legal action against Exon-Mobile, its damning.

I very rarely travel by car or by air. I have been paying for tree planting at around £5/month for a couple of years. I never eat meat or fish and I'm moving to an entirely animal-free lifestyle slowly over time. I attempt to reject waste where I have a practical choice but to do so, for example, to prepare a cup of tea I pour water into a cup, then heat that in the kettle so I have just the right amount. I attempt to use consumer disposables less, especially things like plates and cutlery, but this one is tricky. I attempt to choose consumer products which appear to be lower in their carbon cost, for example I have 100% recycled toilet paper. And finally I vote, every time I'm eligible, and with atmospheric carbon and climate change policy front of my mind.

It is really hard and often what you do turns out to be worse than you thought!

A bag for life has to be used 19 times before it beats a disposable, a paper bag 10 and a cotton bag 150 times. Ouch, can I do that? Then those biodegradable ones you get in Co-op are from hemp grown in Madagascar, where they cut down the rain forest to grow them.

Palm oil uses 10% of the land required compared to other oils produced.

My rule 1 is reduce consumption; rule 2 consume as ethically and cleanly as I can and rule 3 support something that makes it better. For me it's tree planting in Scotland, trees for life, a wonderful real rewilding project.

I found it easy to give up flying, sure I like holidays in the sun, Eurostar to Paris, Train to South of France, same train terminates at Barcelona, Takes 4 hrs from Paris upstairs window view all the farms and villages to see @ 300kmh enjoy the ride everytime
I prefer it to the aggro of airports, you can take as much luggage as you can carry/wheel

With a family it's easier to drive. I'm amazed how easy it is to tour in an EV once you have sorted out the charging network apps. I have travelled by train alone or as a couple and hate flights, in particular the airport experience.

My rules here are: -
1 - the journey must be enjoyable and part of the experience. Trains / road trip add, flights detract.
2 - Short trips should be local, more distant trips longer and greater the distance the longer the trip. Australia is a retirement / gap year trip not a Easter / Christmas break

The words used for drunken Brits on stag weekends, short breaks and all inclusives is unrepeatable on here!

 

[Gostav]

I never eat meat or fish and I'm moving to an entirely animal-free lifestyle slowly over time.

The question is do you always eat seasonal vegetables and fruits grown in UK? Traditionally, in Europe, include the UK, there are not much fresh vegetables and fruits can be choose in winter days.

 

[Starmill]

The question is do you always eat seasonal vegetables and fruits grown in UK? Traditionally, in Europe, include the UK, there are not much fresh vegetables and fruits can be choose in winter days.

No. Not always. I'm a fan of nice bananas for example, and the type of bananas sold in British supermarkets need to grow in a hot house or tropical climate. However I would point out that there are winter vegetables in Britain! Some of them are even nice. Squashes, sweet potatoes, asparagus, carrots, celery, kale, peas and onions, among others.

 

[reddragon]

No. Not always. I'm a fan of nice bananas for example, and the type of bananas sold in British supermarkets need to grow in a hot house or tropical climate. However I would point out that there are winter vegetables in Britain! Some of them are even nice. Squashes, sweet potatoes, asparagus, carrots, celery, kale, peas and onions, among others.

Whilst I would never ever go Veggie let alone vegan, I have gradually switched some meals from meat to vegan / veggie. Around half of my meals no longer contain animal products, but it took a while to learn how.

Food miles / CO2 is a minefield. Bananas are surprisingly low in CO2 and tomatoes are best from Spain and not the UK, apart from a short summer run. Canned of frozen products are actually better for the environment than fresh due to the food chain. You can never win but you can do your best.

 

[Starmill]

Whilst I would never ever go Veggie let alone vegan, I have gradually switched some meals from meat to vegan / veggie. Around half of my meals no longer contain animal products, but it took a while to learn how.

Exactly. Exactly the sensible approach. It's for the same reason that I have not yet totally given up cheese - it comes at a personal cost to give up the things you most enjoy, and not much of a cost to give up things you were quite indifferent to in the first place. I've stopped using raw eggs and milk completely, but occasionally I have baked goods that have dairy or eggs in them as ingredients because I can't actually get plant based alternatives everywhere.

 

[GusB]

There's not much I can do to my house as I don't own it, but my housing association started taking measures to improve energy efficiency a good few years ago. Re-doing the cavity wall and loft insulation was the first step, followed by new double-glazing. The next step was to install solar thermal panels on the roof, a measure that had an instant effect on the electricity bill. A year or so later, they installed a new heating system with an air-source heat pump; this further reduced the energy bill. Most of the lights in the house are on low-energy bulbs, apart from the fluorescent light in the kitchen and one single incandescent bulb in a cupboard that only gets used for a few seconds at a time; the former is on its way out and will be replaced soon, while the latter will be replaced when it decides to blow (I'm not chucking out a perfectly good bulb when it's rarely used).

As for my diet, I'm still a meat-eater, but I do eat far less of it than I used to, and have done over the last 20 years or so. Having previously shared a house with a vegetarian and two vegans, I found it quite easy to adapt meals that I would normally make with meat such as mince, first by using Quorn mince or similar. More recently, I have been experimenting with different lentils as a substitute. Having said that, nothing beats a big plateful of mince'n'tatties!

 

[najaB]

You can never win but you can do your best.

Exactly! No one person is going to save the world, but everyone making what changes they can will make a big difference.

 

[ABB125]

He even now powers his rockets from Methane instead of fossil fuels.

Ummmm.... Methane is a fossil fuel...?

The issue isn't capitalism, it's short-term ism. Too many businesses focus on this year's financial statement and the next shareholder meeting, rather than taking the long-term view. This isn't unique to capitalism, just look at the destruction of the Aral Sea in order to meet the cotton targets set under the USSR's five year plans.

It is possible to combine long-term thinking and capitalism. Just look at Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway. He's consistently beaten the market and doesn't invest in any company without first looking to see where it will be in twenty to thirty years.

Quite. Seemingly the only country with a long term plan is China. The UK is, by comparison, appalling!

 

[najaB]

Ummmm.... Methane is a fossil fuel...?

Depends on the source.