How bad is a SPAD

[RBSN]

The recent incident at Huddersfield was due to platform room, the driver was back driving the next day as it was out of his control.

 

[Llama]

Do you mean the apparent spad or the collision?

If it was a cat A spad the driver wouldn't have been back driving the next day, and if by "due to platform room" you mean that a signal was passed at danger without authority during a coupling (or uncoupling) procedure and proximity to the signal was a factor, that would most certainly be within the driver's control and there are clear procedures in place to be followed in such a scenario, such as attaching/detaching from the 'other' unit, repositioning both units with authority of the signaller prior to attaching/detaching or arranging for the signaller to clear a signal to allow the procedure to be made safely. This would include consideration of unlikely events such as a pull-away test failing during coupling.

 

[craigybagel]

As the other poster mentioned, there is TPWS. However TPWS is not fitted at every signal. You won't find it at most automatic signals and its not fitted to ground position lights or stop boards.
Automatic Train Protection should stop a train if the conditions are not met and with in-cab signalling, while there are no line side signals as such, the system will stop you if you haven't received a movement authority.

It's fitted at certain stop boards that mark block/token sections (on RETB and NSTR lines for example) but in those circumstances special blue TPWS indicator lights are fitted on those stop boards.

I'll admit this is going way into the depths of pedantry though....

 

[RBSN]

Do you mean the apparent spad or the collision?

If it was a cat A spad the driver wouldn't have been back driving the next day, and if by "due to platform room" you mean that a signal was passed at danger without authority during a coupling (or uncoupling) procedure and proximity to the signal was a factor, that would most certainly be within the driver's control and there are clear procedures in place to be followed in such a scenario, such as attaching/detaching from the 'other' unit, repositioning both units with authority of the signaller prior to attaching/detaching or arranging for the signaller to clear a signal to allow the procedure to be made safely. This would include consideration of unlikely events such as a pull-away test failing during coupling.

I can confirm he was back driving the next day as I was sat in the messroom with him, as I am right now.

It wasn’t a Catagory A Spad, nor did the driver pass it.

A TPE service had been stabled on platform 4 leaving nowhere near enough room for a 4-car to fit into the same platform. Because of this, the 4-car was hanging off the end of platform 4.

It came down to a technical incident not a Spad.

 

[Llama]

Exactly, if it was a spad he wouldn't have been back driving next day. So it was recorded as an operating incident. Similar has happened at Leeds occasionally with drivers splitting units carelessly not taking into consideration the position of mid-platform signals or IBJs.

One option he could've had with a bit of foresight (assuming he is aware of platform/unit lengths and that he drove the consist into 4 permissively) is stopping the leading cab say 9' away from the TPE unit and splitting towards that unit. If that means his rear unit is left partly outside the signal then there are provisions in the rules to deal with that later on. So long as he doesn't mske any movement further outside that signal when uncoupling everyone is happy. If he had already stopped 2m from the TPE set so couldn't split it safely from either end and couldn't reposition the TPE unit causing the issue (due to it being a TPE unit) then he should've rung the box and Northern Control and informed them of the circumstances and that he wasn't prepared to split the units as is. It's up to control to make the decision (can a TPE driver be found and the TPE unit be repositioned) what to do next and if they decide the units must be split where they are even if beyond the signal then the driver needs to ring the box, explain the situation and get authority before doing anything.

 

[RBSN]

Exactly, if it was a spad he wouldn't have been back driving next day. So it was recorded as an operating incident. Similar has happened at Leeds occasionally with drivers splitting units carelessly not taking into consideration the position of mid-platform signals or IBJs.

One option he could've had with a bit of foresight (assuming he is aware of platform/unit lengths and that he drove the consist into 4 permissively) is stopping the leading cab say 9' away from the TPE unit and splitting towards that unit. If that means his rear unit is left partly outside the signal then there are provisions in the rules to deal with that later on. So long as he doesn't mske any movement further outside that signal when uncoupling everyone is happy. If he had already stopped 2m from the TPE set so couldn't split it safely from either end and couldn't reposition the TPE unit causing the issue (due to it being a TPE unit) then he should've rung the box and Northern Control and informed them of the circumstances and that he wasn't prepared to split the units as is. It's up to control to make the decision (can a TPE driver be found and the TPE unit be repositioned) what to do next and if they decide the units must be split where they are even if beyond the signal then the driver needs to ring the box, explain the situation and get authority before doing anything.

He contacted both the signaller and control and was instructed to to make the movement, even after he advised them of the situation.

This is why it’s an OI and nothing to do with the driver. I’m assuming you’re also a Leeds driver?

 

[ComUtoR]

A similar situation happened to me. I was given permissive working and challenged the signal. I was told that there was room or me... Suffice to say I pulled in and ended up with 2 out the back. I called the Sig and I was asked to split the two off the back. Control, platform, and the box all gave me permission to split back into a set of point and whilst I was behind the signal.

I refused.

I took the unit into a nearby set of sidings, split it, and then returned to the platform.

We have had at least one SPAD due to a split in a tight platform.

 

[RBSN]

A similar situation happened to me. I was given permissive working and challenged the signal. I was told that there was room or me... Suffice to say I pulled in and ended up with 2 out the back. I called the Sig and I was asked to split the two off the back. Control, platform, and the box all gave me permission to split back into a set of point and whilst I was behind the signal.

I refused.

I took the unit into a nearby set of sidings, split it, and then returned to the platform.

We have had at least one SPAD due to a split in a tight platform.

I’ve had the same recently. Signaller tried to get me into platform 17 at Leeds permissive, even when I explained I would not fit he was adamant I would.

Sure enough, I didn’t.

Lucky all calls are recorded

 

[Llama]

He contacted both the signaller and control and was instructed to to make the movement, even after he advised them of the situation.

This is why it’s an OI and nothing to do with the driver. I’m assuming you’re also a Leeds driver?

So why has he been daubed with an operating incident on his record then if he was instructed by the signaller to make the movement? Something doesn't add up here.

I am not a Leeds driver btw.

 

[axlecounter]

Exactly, if it was a spad he wouldn't have been back driving next day. So it was recorded as an operating incident. Similar has happened at Leeds occasionally with drivers splitting units carelessly not taking into consideration the position of mid-platform signals or IBJs.

One option he could've had with a bit of foresight (assuming he is aware of platform/unit lengths and that he drove the consist into 4 permissively) is stopping the leading cab say 9' away from the TPE unit and splitting towards that unit. If that means his rear unit is left partly outside the signal then there are provisions in the rules to deal with that later on. So long as he doesn't mske any movement further outside that signal when uncoupling everyone is happy. If he had already stopped 2m from the TPE set so couldn't split it safely from either end and couldn't reposition the TPE unit causing the issue (due to it being a TPE unit) then he should've rung the box and Northern Control and informed them of the circumstances and that he wasn't prepared to split the units as is. It's up to control to make the decision (can a TPE driver be found and the TPE unit be repositioned) what to do next and if they decide the units must be split where they are even if beyond the signal then the driver needs to ring the box, explain the situation and get authority before doing anything.

As some may know I’m a driver in another country, but sometimes... I really can’t figure out what are you guys talking about.
What’s with the moving after splitting? Why? And by so much enough to have a SPAD? What do you mean with split safely?
Also, @ComUtoR , why would you refuse to split in that situation?

 

[Llama]

The traction units concerned here have BSI autocouplers, to uncouple two units they must be drawn apart, to a maximum distance of two feet (60cm). The location bring discussed here is Huddersfield platform 4 which is bi-directional and permissive working is permitted in both directions. There is a main aspect signal at each end of the platform, which is actually 213m long although the signal at the Manchester end is 41m before the end of the platform owing to the layout of a crossover.
There was a unit already stabled in the platform (probably a class 185 at ~70m long) leaving not enough room to accommodate the two other traction units arriving at the already occupied platform 4 which the driver was booked to detach on arrival.

 

[ComUtoR]

What’s with the moving after splitting?

At my TOC with our units you 'set back' 2ft after splitting the unit

And by so much enough to have a SPAD?

As Llama describes, there can be a situation where the unit is tight on the signal and even moving back 2ft is enough to pass it, foul the points and even trip the track circuit at one of our stations :/

What do you mean with split safely?

Splitting and Joining still has risks. I drive various traction and each has its own peculiarity with the process and each has a dedicated procedure. An example of one of the risks is if you mechanically couple (drive on and attach) with one of our units. It will close the doors on the other unit. The risk there with anybody boarding is quite clear. We also have a risk of runaways. (which happened) So we need to follow the procedures to ensure it doesn't happen.

Also, @ComUtoR , why would you refuse to split in that situation?

Because it was a stupid and unnecessary decision by control and the Signaler. The safest and most sensible option was to drop it into the sidings, split it there and bring it back out. Not forgetting I was splitting it behind a signal into a set of point and onto a running line. That isn't a risk I am prepared to take, regardless of being given permission. Sometimes you need to refuse. There have been too many incidents where a Driver is told they can do something when in fact, it is against the rules or there is a simpler solution with less risk. As I mentioned in another thread, we are risk averse and too many small things can lead to the holes lining up perfectly.

 

[theking]

A similar situation happened to me. I was given permissive working and challenged the signal. I was told that there was room or me... Suffice to say I pulled in and ended up with 2 out the back. I called the Sig and I was asked to split the two off the back. Control, platform, and the box all gave me permission to split back into a set of point and whilst I was behind the signal.

I refused.

I took the unit into a nearby set of sidings, split it, and then returned to the platform.

We have had at least one SPAD due to a split in a tight platform.

Not trolling but genuinely interested in the answer.

If you knew you wouldn't fit why did you take the train in? Surely you trust your route knowledge or was you trying to make a point?

 

[Highlandspring]

Also TPWS isn't meant to stop a spad, it is only meant to stop a train from exceeding the overlap/clearance point beyond the relevant signal.

As an extra note of pedantry TPWS is intended to prevent a train reaching the ‘point of conflict’ (i.e. the point at which one movement could feasibly come into collision with another) which may or may not be located beyond the length of the overlap. This becomes of significance when undertaking and scoring SORAT* assessments. Hence why certain locations - typically places where short trains with high rates of acceleration start from rest - have TSS equipment installed on approach to a signal.


*Signal Overrun Risk Assesment Tool

 

[Llama]

Those signals with extra TSS have the likelihood of causing problems if a driver is authorised to pass the signal at danger with authority, as at some TOCs those signals with extra TSS loops aren't briefed to drivers.
A driver activating the 'train stop override' only renders it effective until a TSS set is encountered or the override times-out (20 seconds on passenger stock) - whichever comes first. It would therefore need activating twice to avoid an unintentional TPWS activation at the signal.

 

[GB]

Not trolling but genuinely interested in the answer.

If you knew you wouldn't fit why did you take the train in? Surely you trust your route knowledge or was you trying to make a point?

Where did he say he knew he wouldn't fit?

 

[Highlandspring]

Those signals with extra TSS have the likelihood of causing problems if a driver is authorised to pass the signal at danger with authority, as at some TOCs those signals with extra TSS loops aren't briefed to drivers.
A driver activating the 'train stop override' only renders it effective until a TSS set is encountered or the override times-out (20 seconds on passenger stock) - whichever comes first. It would therefore need activating twice to avoid an unintentional TPWS activation at the signal.

Yes, in a previous life I had to write a Sectional Appendix Local Instruction covering just that.

 

[theking]

Where did he say he knew he wouldn't fit?

Why else would he challenge a permissive signal then??

 

[GB]

Why else would he challenge a permissive signal then??

Because as a driver you do not know what you are being put on top of or what room is available for your train. The permissive signal does not give you that information, only that you are entering an occupied platform.

 

[Trainguy90]

ignore lol

 

[GB]

deleted.

 

[theking]

Because as a driver you do not know what you are being put on top of or what room is available for your train. The permissive signal does not give you that information, only that you are entering an occupied platform.

And surely in that conversation with the signaller he would have been told what was currently occupying the platform? From comutor's previous posts he has years of experience so doubt he would just take the signallers word for it that's why i assumed he would know if his train would fit or not.

 

[RBSN]

So why has he been daubed with an operating incident on his record then if he was instructed by the signaller to make the movement? Something doesn't add up here.

I am not a Leeds driver btw.

He hasn’t been daubed with anything, it’s gone to TPE.

 

[GB]

And surely in that conversation with the signaller he would have been told what was currently occupying the platform? From comutor's previous posts he has years of experience so doubt he would just take the signallers word for it that's why i assumed he would know if his train would fit or not.

The signaller is the one with the information...why would you not believe him/her? Clearly if the signaller tells you theres an 8 car in a 12 car platform and your train is an 8 car then you wouldn't take the signal. But what if you are a 4 car and that 8 car was stabled closer than it should have been...or there is a mixture of different trains in the platform?

Some situations you will know if you will fit or not depending on the length of your own train...but if you are a smaller train then you won't know you will fit in many cases.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you knew you wouldn't fit why did you take the train in? Surely you trust your route knowledge or was you trying to make a point?

I didn't know it wouldn't fit. Permissive working goes wrong frequently so where it is unexpected or you have an odd unit length it is always worth challenging the signal. I have never known a Signaler who wasn't grateful. In this specific incident it went wrong because the Signaller was given the wrong information. He said there was 2 on the platform and as I was a 6 it fits. Halfway down the platform it was a 4 car on the stops.

Why else would he challenge a permissive signal then??

Because it goes wrong too often. Also at this specific location I always challenge the signal if I am in multiple.

And surely in that conversation with the signaller he would have been told what was currently occupying the platform?

I was told 2, it was a 4

From comutor's previous posts he has years of experience so doubt he would just take the signallers word for it that's why i assumed he would know if his train would fit or not.

It is because of that experience that I challenge certain signals or instructions. You develop a sixth sense so to speak and use past experiences and incidents to help make the right decision. A lot of trust is put into the system and we rely on each other. Everyone makes a mistake and if the Signaller has wrongly routed you into a occupied platform where you can't fit then I have his back and a quick call prevents an incident. I remember a day where I ran 6 vice 4 and only because the person dispatching me questioned why I drove past him and stopped at the 6 mark did I discover I was running vice. That day he stopped an incident because when I got to the terminal station (where I never challenge a 6 car) and was offered permissive working, I told the Signaller that I was actually a 6 car. His exact words were "why would anyone tell me, I'm just the [F* expletive] Signaller" He put the road back and routed me into another platform. Again, its experience that helps dictate my actions.

It's a hard balance to maintain but I do trust the Signaller. But it's my job to check

Plymouth incident
https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/collision-at-plymouth-station

The RAIB has made three recommendations. The first, addressed to Great Western Railway and possibly also relevant to other train operators, seeks improvements to the training and assessment of new drivers. (...) The third recommendation, addressed to Network Rail and to be undertaken with the assistance of appropriate train operating companies, seeks a review of permissive working arrangements at stations.

Two learning points stress the care needed by drivers when undertaking permissive moves, (...)

My thanks to GB for the excellent replies.

 

[Llama]

He hasn’t been daubed with anything, it’s gone to TPE.

TPE can't be given blame for an 'incident' in which a unit of theirs was berthed legitimately in a platform. There are no stop marker boards at Huddersfield, they have no way of knowing what units of Northern's may or may not turn up.

The only thing that can be levelled at TPE might be a delay attribution claim for any resultant delays of the Northern stock due to not being accommodated. But even then, was the Northern stock the booked stock? Was the TPE driver of the berthed unit given instructions to berth it in a specific place on the platform?

 

[Boris533]

As the other poster mentioned, there is TPWS. However TPWS is not fitted at every signal. You won't find it at most automatic signals and its not fitted to ground position lights or stop boards.
Automatic Train Protection should stop a train if the conditions are not met and with in-cab signalling, while there are no line side signals as such, the system will stop you if you haven't received a movement authority.

Thanks A lot for your reply, appreciate it.

 

[RBSN]

TPE can't be given blame for an 'incident' in which a unit of theirs was berthed legitimately in a platform. There are no stop marker boards at Huddersfield, they have no way of knowing what units of Northern's may or may not turn up.

The only thing that can be levelled at TPE might be a delay attribution claim for any resultant delays of the Northern stock due to not being accommodated. But even then, was the Northern stock the booked stock? Was the TPE driver of the berthed unit given instructions to berth it in a specific place on the platform?

All I can tell you is what’s on our SOL board. You’re welcome to come and take a look.

Who do you drive for?

 

[Llama]

Northern.

This is clearly a non-incident, certainly not a spad as originally stated. No case to answer by TPE and a suitable conversation would be in order for the Northern driver to remind him of his responsibilities.

I have also seen fatalities posted on that SOL notice board at Leeds in years gone by. Quite inappropriate and unnecessary.

 

[Trainguy90]

Soooooooooo.......

How bad actually is a SPAD??