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How can the industry lower its costs?

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tbtc

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Running sectors like Intercity and Railfreight at a profit

This was talked about a lot at the time, but it all depends on how you count the figures.

Were Intercity and Railfreight paying reasonable track access charges (in the internal accounting)? Or were the figures carefully costed to give the impression to private firms that you could run Intercity services and freight trains at a profit, to encourage companies to whet their appetite?

Depending on how you counted the cost of things like trains too (e.g. were Intercity costed as paying anything for the HSTs?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly - and mass transportation should cost less than personal transportation. You wouldnt stay in a 16 man dorm if a private hotel room was cheaper ;)

If trains were run without any staff involved then your example would make sense.

Maybe a better way of looking at it would be to suggest that you wouldn't expect to be able to buy a meal in a restaurant (where you are paying for the kitchen staff, paying for the waiting staff etc) for less than the price of buying the ingredients in the supermarket (when you are doing the cooking yourself at home).

If you take the train, you obviously need to pay your share of the wages of the driver, the guard, the cleaners, the ticket office, the signal staff... not as simple as just assuming that it should be cheaper because it's "mass" transportation.
 
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Goatboy

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If you take the train, you obviously need to pay your share of the wages of the driver, the guard, the cleaners, the ticket office, the signal staff... not as simple as just assuming that it should be cheaper because it's "mass" transportation.

If its not cheaper then it serves no purpose for the majority of the travelling public and will not succeed in providing a sustainable transport system for the future because it will not encourage people not to use cars.

I went by train to Bristol yesterday. I had to stand up for much of the trip after being turfed out of my seat by XC's amazing reservation system. It was no quicker than driving and less convenient than parking in a city centre carpark. So why did I travel by train on this occasion?

One reason - the tickets I used made it cheaper than taking my car.

This is the same for most people, central London generally excepted.

What is the point in a public transit system that costs more to use than a private car?
 

tbtc

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If its not cheaper then it serves no purpose for the majority of the travelling public and will not succeed in providing a sustainable transport system for the future because it will not encourage people not to use cars.

I went by train to Bristol yesterday. I had to stand up for much of the trip after being turfed out of my seat by XC's amazing reservation system. It was no quicker than driving and less convenient than parking in a city centre carpark. So why did I travel by train on this occasion?

One reason - the tickets I used made it cheaper than taking my car.

This is the same for most people, central London generally excepted.

What is the point in a public transit system that costs more to use than a private car?

As I previously said, there are plenty of reasons - not everyone can drive, driving isn't always convenient, it wouldn't be practical for everyone to drive into a city centre in the morning rush hour.

Still don't get why you think a train should always be cheaper than the marginal cost of driving (considering all the staff costs etc) - maybe we should move to a DLR system?
 

Goatboy

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Still don't get why you think a train should always be cheaper than the marginal cost of driving (considering all the staff costs etc) - maybe we should move to a DLR system?

I've explained it quite clearly why I think it should (almost*) always be cheaper. Rail is a vital part of our future sustainable transport system. If we want to reduce dependancy on imported fuel, if we want to reduce CO2 emissions and if we want to have an environmentally friendly sustainable transport system in this country rail NEEDS to be a big part of this. This is what the government is committed to doing. But people won't shift to it without it offering them something the car does not - and given the car is a luxury item the main thing rail can offer that car does not is lower cost. It is the duty of the government to ensure this can happen.

* There are a limited number of occasions where it is perhaps justifiable to charge more than the marginal cost of using an average family car, when for example the train has significant flexibility advantages over road use or significant time advantages over road use. But these cases are the minority, not the majority.

Which, price aside, leaves 'not wanting to drive' or 'the convenient of being able to sit back and/or work' as the only other real reasons to abandon the car. Not going to be enough really, is it? Car use will continue to increase.

If the rail network cannot move a large number of people on a mass transit system from A to B for a lower cost on a per person basis to the user than the user moving themselves from A to B in a private vehicle, something is wrong with the system, be it in terms of the costs the industry incurs or the funding it receives from government.

Driving around the country in your own private climate controlled personal space with your own internal combustion engine on your own should be, private helicopter or taxi aside, the most expensive way to get from A to B, surely?

Look what happens to a countries rail network when the car is cheaper than public transport - look at whats left of the passenger rail service in many US cities.
 
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Roverman

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Surely the biggest problem is back office staff, every TOC has its own CEO, Board of directors, HR team, call centre staff etc etc Whereas BR only 1 each of those (maybe slightly more under Sectorisation-please correct me if I am wrong) and bearing in mind some of the mega bucks these people can be on this is where severe economies can be made? Would it be so bad if things like call centres were centralised or even hived out to 1 company like Serco?

Update-it seems that under Sectorisation and the Regions they would have been more layers than I imagined thanks to Goatboy for the info there. However would it have been on the same scale as we have now with over a dozen sets of back offices for each and every TOC.
 
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Clip

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Surely the biggest problem is back office staff, every TOC has its own CEO, Board of directors, HR team, call centre staff etc etc Whereas BR only 1 each of those (maybe slightly more under Sectorisation-please correct me if I am wrong) and bearing in mind some of the mega bucks these people can be on this is where severe economies can be made? Would it be so bad if things like call centres were centralised or even hived out to 1 company like Serco?

So effectively sacking people and throwing them on the dole queue. Brilliant.

 

Goatboy

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Surely the biggest problem is back office staff, every TOC has its own CEO, Board of directors, HR team, call centre staff etc etc Whereas BR only 1 each of those (maybe slightly more under Sectorisation-please correct me if I am wrong) and bearing in mind some of the mega bucks these people can be on this is where severe economies can be made? Would it be so bad if things like call centres were centralised or even hived out to 1 company like Serco?

Not really - before Sectorisation BR had regions which would have had similar management structures.
 

Roverman

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It all depends how its done. Other private industries have policies like 'Natural Wastage' where certain staff won't be replaced if they resign/retire/dismissed etc, also when staff are transferred from one company to another they are protected under rules of TUPE. Finally I think we all know that any CEO won't be unemployed for too long, even Hornby from Halifax managed to walk into a cushty role at Boots!
 

Clip

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It all depends how its done. Other private industries have policies like 'Natural Wastage' where certain staff won't be replaced if they resign/retire/dismissed etc, also when staff are transferred from one company to another they are protected under rules of TUPE. Finally I think we all know that any CEO won't be unemployed for too long, even Hornby from Halifax managed to walk into a cushty role at Boots!

But what about the HR team and call centre staff? They can't all just walk into a new role right away.

 

moggie

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Competition must be surely dependent on the size of the market to be served? The market being the number of people wishing to travel between points - by whatever means suites their needs. For most this is the car. For those who do not wish to / cannot use a car then it's by public transport Air / Bus / Train. Each have their strengths and weaknesses depending on the individual need of the user - cost being only one factor.

Whatever they are, only a proportion will ever use rail although that proportion will be influenced by various marketing and infrastuture developments from time to time.

So competion within the mode further slices the market and in the case of rail is also constrained by a the capacity to carry and available train paths.

Therefore, irrespective of the attractivness of true competion (with anti cherry picking) the market must be large enough in the first place to enable an appropriate financial return to be made, such as London - Birmingham for example.

If not, competition on rail is surely only suitable in a very few number of instances and where alternative routes exist between principal points. That's the way I see it.
 

Dave1987

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Surely a state* owned system like Bob Reid's business lead BR would be the most efficient way of running the railway today?
Running sectors like Intercity and Railfreight at a profit (wasn't NSE supposed to break even around 2002?) only this time, unlike in BR times the railway should be able to plough every penny of revenue it makes back into the railway. Rather than having to ask govt. permission to spend its own money, it should have freedom to do so.

*note - emphasis on owned, not run.

In theory a state owned system is excellent. Every penny of profit gets ploughed back into the system for improvements but and its a big but, unfortunately you have certain parties that get into govt and make wild claims without costing them out properly. Every party, just to get into govt, would claim that they could lower rail fares and then to pay for it they would have to cut back on investment and then you would get back to how the railways were just before privatisation, in desperate need of money as the infrastructure would be falling apart. Privatisation has its downsides, but it also has its benefits. The grass is always greener on the other side!
 

The Ham

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Exactly - and mass transportation should cost less than personal transportation. You wouldnt stay in a 16 man dorm if a private hotel room was cheaper ;)

Your comparison is not quite the same, as in both the hotel and the dorm there are staff costs. It would be more like comparing the overnight cost of staying in your own accommodation (e.g. static caravan, 2nd home, etc.) and a 16 man dorm. The cost that you paid for the night would be less staying in your own accommodation than in the 16 man dorm, however you would have to do all the cleaning, pay for all the costs of maintenance and running it as well as buying it in the first place.

In your example a single room would be like getting a taxi, a limo or having your own driver (depending on how much you pay).

I have said elsewhere on this forum that a lot of people forget to include the purchase cost of their car in working out if it is cheaper to drive. However for a lot of households there will be the need to have access to one car as public transport and/or car clubs are not sufficient for their needs.

There are a lot of households in large cities where they are abandoning the private car, for instance it is now the norm in several London Boroughs for households not to own a car and there are now less cars in London than there are households (compared to the national average where there are 1.2 cars per household).
 

Goatboy

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I have said elsewhere on this forum that a lot of people forget to include the purchase cost of their car in working out if it is cheaper to drive.

And I explain every time why for most of the British public, this is irrelevent. It's already purchased and a large amount of the depreciation happens outside of whether a particular journey is made or not. Which is why it is marginal cost that matters, not total cost. When I need to travel I face a choice of the train or an already purchased, tax and insured car thats ready to go. I don't need to pop out and buy the car first.

Only if people are looking to give up a car is that a relevent cost. This is a pipe dream for most.
 

Oswyntail

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And I explain every time why for most of the British public, this is irrelevent. ....
Just because most people prefer not to think does not mean that they shouldn't be encouraged to.The transport debate is heavily skewed because factors like this are not mentioned loud or hard enough. Cars are expensive to buy and expensive to run, and they are not a human right that should necessarily be protected by government. People would be a lot happier if they used their transport mode most appropriate for their journey, and only bought cars suitable for their needs.
 

Goatboy

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It doesn't matter how much a car cost to buy for the purposes of deciding whether to use the train or not if the already own a car. It's paid for. It will cost you tax, insurance and depreciation even when its parked on your drive whilst you use the train.
 

Domeyhead

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I found myself nodding in agreement at so many good points and posts on this thread - it's been quite refreshing. In answer to the original question I would only add two points to those already made.
1) Encourage an expansion of open access intermodal railfreight because it can utilise off peak periods and shared terminals. Unfortunately this would require capital spending of new open access terminals particularly at network extremities plus underwriting of enterprise services ( a little like some franchises), but it would then deliver more track access revenue over a long period and help peg infrastructure access charges for other (ie passenger) users. If the govt are into infrastructure at the moment then spend £0.5bn of it on new terminals.
2) Put an end to the crazy ond overcomplicated slicing and dicing of farebox revenue among the various operators. Jump on any walk-on train and your turn up and go fare is carefully broken up into tiny pieces all of which are then divi'd up between all the potential carriers along your journey - this admin operation performed among all the TOCs is a bit like the way your mobile phone call cost is shared among all the intermediate network carriers - a huge bloated over-complicated self sustaining case of technology and IT capacity enabling something to reach unrequired levels of complexity "just because it can". Replace it with pooled revenue and a simplified share-out.
 

Zoe

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It doesn't matter how much a car cost to buy for the purposes of deciding whether to use the train or not if the already own a car.
But cars don't last forever and when the car is life expired people can consider not buying another car but relying instead on public transport. Then they would not only be saved the expensive of buying another car but also the cost of insurance and maintenance.
 

Goatboy

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Very few people can truely rely solely on public transport. I couldn't. So the best way to get cars off the road is acknowledge this and focus on making rail a bigger part of peoples transport mix. We have far more chance of encouraging people to leave a car at home than we do of getting them to give it up entirely.
 

Roverman

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Very few people can truely rely solely on public transport. I couldn't. So the best way to get cars off the road is acknowledge this and focus on making rail a bigger part of peoples transport mix. We have far more chance of encouraging people to leave a car at home than we do of getting them to give it up entirely.


Or driving it to a Parkway station and catching a train from there?
 

starrymarkb

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I looked into it when I replaced my car in 2011. I worked it out and ended up keeping the car. I do walk or use my bike for shorter journeys (ie my daily commute is on Foot) but I do use the car for longer trips that would be more difficult by public transport

ie Visiting the parents on Sunday - 12 mile trip - 25 mins in the car @15p per mile in fuel - 2hrs by bus @£7.25 rtn (hourly) - there is a direct bus to their town (taking 1 hour), but it runs about 5 journeys per day M-F only (no weekend service).
 

AlterEgo

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2) Put an end to the crazy ond overcomplicated slicing and dicing of farebox revenue among the various operators. Jump on any walk-on train and your turn up and go fare is carefully broken up into tiny pieces all of which are then divi'd up between all the potential carriers along your journey - this admin operation performed among all the TOCs is a bit like the way your mobile phone call cost is shared among all the intermediate network carriers - a huge bloated over-complicated self sustaining case of technology and IT capacity enabling something to reach unrequired levels of complexity "just because it can". Replace it with pooled revenue and a simplified share-out.

How much does operating the ORCATS system actually cost the railway, currently?

I don't know, but I wager not a lot.

ORCATS can be a bit mad at the best of times. Simply pooling all railway revenue into one pot with equal shares to all TOCs is a good idea on paper, but I think it would serve only to stifle competition in practice. What's the incentive to offer new or improved services if you aren't going to get a larger share of revenue?
 

NSEFAN

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AlterEgo said:
ORCATS can be a bit mad at the best of times. Simply pooling all railway revenue into one pot with equal shares to all TOCs is a good idea on paper, but I think it would serve only to stifle competition in practice. What's the incentive to offer new or improved services if you aren't going to get a larger share of revenue?

Surely TOC-specific tickets don't get calculated under ORCATS?
 

Pumbaa

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Surely TOC-specific tickets don't get calculated under ORCATS?

It still goes through ORCATS. It's the name of the system - different mechanisms exist which divvy up the revenue accordingly.
 

NSEFAN

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Pumbaa said:
It still goes through ORCATS. It's the name of the system - different mechanisms exist which divvy up the revenue accordingly.

Okay fair enough. I guess point was that TOC-specific tickets allow the companies to get more of the revenue compared to the any permitted fares.
 

hawaii2468

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Maybe one of the realistic solution is to improve the occupation of the trains at off peak hours as trains don't make money if they let seats empty. However, with such expensive train tickets, it scares commuters off from train services especially those who live in the suburbs and don't need to commute to London everyday. As renovation or new cars will cost even more money, the more cost effective methods will always be increase income + reduce cost which can be: better sales + reduce price and unnecessary services.
 

HH

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This thread is about lowering costs. Putting more people on trains doesn't lower costs, it increases them. It might lower the unit cost, but that only benefits if you see an increase in revenue. I'm not saying that every TOC has got it right, but generally speaking TOCs have lowered fares where they think that it would be revenue generative - hence the growth of Advance Purchase tickets.

There's some interesting information in the TSC's Rail 2020 report. Firstly let's look at the TOC profitability: for the 3 years examined (2009-2011) the biggest single profit in any year was Virgin 2009 with £67.5m; the biggest loss was Chiltern with £57.1m in 2011. In 2011 two other TOCs (XC & EMT) made large losses (£30m & £34m) respectively, while £30+m profits were made by Virgin £34.3m, SWT £47.5m, and Northern £35.2m. Total is only £91m in 2011. A gnat's bite on the overall cost increase (more below).

On subsidies the biggest by far is ScotRail (£305.0m in 2011) followed by ATW (£136.8m), with large subsidies also to Southeastern, Northern & Merseyrail. Over £100m premiums were paid by SWT, Virgin, FCC & FGW. Note that once NR route subsidies are taken into account (not shown in this report) only FCC is not subsidised at all. ScotRail must be enormous. Southeastern is probably down to HS1.

There is also an interesting comparison with BR in real terms. The key elements of this are:

* Growth is responsible for £2.3bn growth in revenue and £1.7bn growth in cost (more on this below).
* Fare increases are responsible for only £0.3bn growth - this is largely because in the initial franchises fares rose at RPI-1%.
* Rolling Stock Costs increased by £0.5bn - I quote: "Since BRB days, the financial structure has completely changed, and new capital investment in rolling stock no longer drops through immediately to the cash requirement. There has also been substantial expansion in the size of the fleet to support growth, and a significant improvement in the average age. McNulty estimates that rolling stock charges per passenger-km have been pretty static since 1996 and assuming this is true since 1989, this would explain an increase in costs of some £0.5bn."
* Cost of the NR RAB has risen by £1.5bn - again I quote: "Since privatisation, new infrastructure capital expenditure (including the substantial quantity of enhancements) and renewals have been financed through borrowing and has been added to the Regulatory Asset Base (RAB) on which a regulated rate of return is allowed to enable Network Rail to meet its borrowing costs. At the time of privatisation, the RAB was very low (under £5bn), and has now grown to £42bn. The allowed return on the RAB amounted (after technical adjustments) to £1.5bn in 09/10 and is effectively a new item since BR days, mostly reflecting the substantial expenditure on investments (enhancements, and renewals) in recent years, all of which were artificially low (or zero) at the end of the BR era."

In other words the main increase in costs is either from growth, changes in funding, or increases in capital expenditure (following a period of neglect). The bit they pick on is the £1.7bn growth increase; their viewpoint is that this is too large because unit costs should have fallen while they have in fact stayed the same. The first point I'd make here is that even if the unit costs came down, how much could be saved? Is it really £3.5bn?

The other question is how good is their assumption that the unit cost of growth should be lower than existing? Let's examine the elements of that cost:
* Cost of running the trains (power, maintenance, traincrew)
* Cost of maintaining the infrastructure
* Cost of Customer Service (e.g. ticket sales, information, security)
* Overheads

Let's take the first. According to their own statistics, train cost increases are in line with increased train miles; and this should be largely expected of the cost of running the extra trains too. I think there should be some savings due to there being an element of strengthening, but these have been partly eaten up by increases in materials and wage rates and decreased labour efficiency (including shorter hours). Another big hit has been in the cost of power. It seems that both McNulty and the TSC ignore how far this has been over inflation during the period. Finally the newer rolling stock is more expensive to maintain, due to such additions as air conditioning.

Maintaining the infrastructure would seem to offer opportunities to cut unit costs, however similar to the above materials and wages have risen faster than inflation, plus there are changes to the way of working (e.g. from safety regulation) that will have added to cost. I don't know enough to comment further, but it seems clear that with longer and more frequent trains we should expect more maintenance.

This may be hard for some to believe, but I would think that Customer Service now costs a fair bit more than it used to, due to changes since the days of BR. Firstly there's the use of Ticket Gates - there's a benefit in revenue, but you have to accept the cost base increases as well. There's more security; more CCTV, more Police, more private security. There's delay/repay. Loads of money has been spent on CIS; yes I know it's often still lousy, but money has been spent.

Finally overheads. I've seen these generally decrease, but there are some areas which have gone up, e.g. Insurance & claims (many more ambulance chasers these days). Anyway these are by far the smallest element of costs.

To sum up, the assumption that unit costs should have come down is correct, but the amount is probably overestimated by McNulty & this group because they don't understand the cost drivers.
 

yorksrob

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This thread is about lowering costs. Putting more people on trains doesn't lower costs, it increases them. It might lower the unit cost, but that only benefits if you see an increase in revenue. I'm not saying that every TOC has got it right, but generally speaking TOCs have lowered fares where they think that it would be revenue generative - hence the growth of Advance Purchase tickets.
this seems to have been more successful on InterCity type franchises. Putting more people on trains does cut costs if they are on a train which would have been running anyway, and I get the impression that there is some scope for better use of short to intermediate distance trains, particularly off-peak.
 

HH

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Putting more people on trains does cut costs if they are on a train which would have been running anyway
No it doesn't, as I was trying to explain. It might, and usually will, lower the unit cost, but the absolute cost goes up. This is important, because at some point the costs will take a leap - e.g. if a train gets too full and you need more/bigger trains.

It's also important because to encourage more use it was suggested that you lower price. The additional extra income from such a change might be marginal. Let's say you sold 9 tickets at £11, but if you lower the price to £10 you sell 10. The marginal additional revenue is £1. Now if the cost of selling that extra ticket was £1.10 you made a loss...
 
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yorksrob

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No it doesn't, as I was trying to explain. It might, and usually will, lower the unit cost, but the absolute cost goes up. This is important, because at some point the costs will take a leap - e.g. if a train gets too full and you need more/bigger trains.

It's also important because to encourage more use it was suggested that you lower price. The additional extra income from such a change might be marginal. Let's say you sold 9 tickets at £11, but if you lower the price to £10 you sell 10. The marginal additional revenue is £1. Now if the cost of selling that extra ticket was £1.10 you made a loss...

Yes, but the point I was making is that we don't seem to be filling a lot of the middle distance trains nearly as effectively as longer distance ones. I suspect that a better distinction between on and off peak fares in the provinces could well lead to lower unit costs as you describe.
 

tbtc

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we don't seem to be filling a lot of the middle distance trains nearly as effectively as longer distance ones

I think that the issue here is that I may be willing to plan a trip to London in advance, maybe even *because* I can get a bargainous advance ticket (like booking a holiday months in advance)- and accept the restriction to a specific train...

...but I'm a lot less likely to restrict myself for a journey of only an hour or so (e.g. Sheffield to Manchester/ Leeds).

I don't know where the "boundary" is or what it'd take to get me to restrict myself to a specific train on a shorter journey (I can't really get as excited about saving just a couple of quid compared to a longer journey), but you raise an interesting point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No it doesn't, as I was trying to explain. It might, and usually will, lower the unit cost, but the absolute cost goes up. This is important, because at some point the costs will take a leap - e.g. if a train gets too full and you need more/bigger trains.

It's also important because to encourage more use it was suggested that you lower price. The additional extra income from such a change might be marginal. Let's say you sold 9 tickets at £11, but if you lower the price to £10 you sell 10. The marginal additional revenue is £1. Now if the cost of selling that extra ticket was £1.10 you made a loss...

Good point - people get very excited about passenger numbers without considering the cost of those passengers
 
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