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How can the industry lower its costs?

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Metroland

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Yes I pull hand points regularly. Sorry but I don't think you can compare modern safety standards with what "used" to happen. As a driver I would rather concentrate on the rules I already have to follow, station staff are there to provide customer service to passengers. NR have their staff who are highly qualified in their field. You start trying to merge operational jobs on the railway you will compromise safety.

Don't agree, it would increase their understanding of the big picture, feel a bigger part of an overall team, and save a lot of delay when trains are stuck for no good reason because the MOM is stuck in traffic.

Learning to wind points is a very easy task well within the capabilities of a driver or member of station staff, as always it's done under instruction so there is no safety compromise as long as people are trained to do it.

In fact I would say it's safer overall, as it saves trains sat for maybe 30 min or more on a hot summers day with no air con waiting for someone to come out and getting very agitated with other passengers and on train staff.
 
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AlexS

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Yes I pull hand points regularly. Sorry but I don't think you can compare modern safety standards with what "used" to happen. As a driver I would rather concentrate on the rules I already have to follow, station staff are there to provide customer service to passengers. NR have their staff who are highly qualified in their field. You start trying to merge operational jobs on the railway you will compromise safety.

Nonsense. We're not talking taking a train dispatcher and plonking them in New Street 'box to cover a staff shortage, or getting them to cover pilotman's duties. The point is, as a basic example, a points failure is a temporary job stopper in many cases. If platform staff could wander off the end of their platform to secure them under the instruction of the signaller (as they did until privatisation, we're not talking the '30s here), it would save a great deal of time and hassle waiting for some bert from Network Rail to get in his van and drive over. Taking the cover off a point motor, taking them off power, sticking a crank handle in, winding them over, clipping and scotching them, under the direct instruction of the signaller is a very easy job that requires a small amount of training.

I'm a safety critical grade railwayman myself and don't have a problem with that idea. If you prefer the idea of sitting there sulking with a minor issue that could be sorted out, go ahead, but I prefer keeping things moving.

With all due respect I'm slightly dubious of your point of view anyway, not least because of the number of inconsistencies with your personal profile that have been pointed out in various places on these fora. I'm not saying it is the case, but I've heard from enough perfectly convincing fake drivers on here in my time and hopefully with that in mind, as I don't know you, you won't mind me taking what you say with a pinch of salt.
 

PHILIPE

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I am not offering an opinion on privatisation but realistically this is the reason for the increased costs in operationg our railways. You have bodies such as DFT and ORR trying to join all the fragmented parts together and many staff involved in passing money round the system. Duplication has also resulted from the process thus increasing staff numbers.
 

HH

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I am not offering an opinion on privatisation but realistically this is the reason for the increased costs in operationg our railways. You have bodies such as DFT and ORR trying to join all the fragmented parts together and many staff involved in passing money round the system. Duplication has also resulted from the process thus increasing staff numbers.
The first bit is true, although the numbers involved are not as huge as some would have you think; I'm not aware of duplication beyond the money-go-rounds.
 

The Ham

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Combining the village shop with the ticket office might be good for the railway, but not necessarily for the village shop. Someone who just pops in for a pint of milk/some cigarettes wouldn't want to be stuck behind someone after a railcard, season ticket renewal, seat reservations or an unusual ticket.

True, but then if it is the choice between that and having to another village or town to get your milk because the village show wasn't viable in its own right then I know which I would prefer.
 

Dave1987

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Nonsense. We're not talking taking a train dispatcher and plonking them in New Street 'box to cover a staff shortage, or getting them to cover pilotman's duties. The point is, as a basic example, a points failure is a temporary job stopper in many cases. If platform staff could wander off the end of their platform to secure them under the instruction of the signaller (as they did until privatisation, we're not talking the '30s here), it would save a great deal of time and hassle waiting for some bert from Network Rail to get in his van and drive over. Taking the cover off a point motor, taking them off power, sticking a crank handle in, winding them over, clipping and scotching them, under the direct instruction of the signaller is a very easy job that requires a small amount of training.

I'm a safety critical grade railwayman myself and don't have a problem with that idea. If you prefer the idea of sitting there sulking with a minor issue that could be sorted out, go ahead, but I prefer keeping things moving.

With all due respect I'm slightly dubious of your point of view anyway, not least because of the number of inconsistencies with your personal profile that have been pointed out in various places on these fora. I'm not saying it is the case, but I've heard from enough perfectly convincing fake drivers on here in my time and hopefully with that in mind, as I don't know you, you won't mind me taking what you say with a pinch of salt.

I couldn't give a toss if you think I'm a "fake" driver or not I can prove that I'm a driver if necessary by taking a photo of my train driving license. If you are a professional railwayman you would know the MOM serves more of a purpose than to just wind and clip points. Anyway hope you have finished insulting me and insinuating that I'm a liar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't agree, it would increase their understanding of the big picture, feel a bigger part of an overall team, and save a lot of delay when trains are stuck for no good reason because the MOM is stuck in traffic.

Learning to wind points is a very easy task well within the capabilities of a driver or member of station staff, as always it's done under instruction so there is no safety compromise as long as people are trained to do it.

In fact I would say it's safer overall, as it saves trains sat for maybe 30 min or more on a hot summers day with no air con waiting for someone to come out and getting very agitated with other passengers and on train staff.

I'm not going to comment anymore as someone else has insinuated that I am a liar and a "fake" driver just because my opinion on the matter doesn't match theirs.
 

Tomnick

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If you are a professional railwayman you would know the MOM serves more of a purpose than to just wind and clip points...
Given that this is indeed the case (as I know Alex knows, being a professional railwayman), surely there's more of a case to train some staff to carry out these duties to get the job moving, given that the MOM could either be right at the other end of the patch or carrying out other duties in connection with the failure?
 

PHILIPE

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The first bit is true, although the numbers involved are not as huge as some would have you think; I'm not aware of duplication beyond the money-go-rounds.
Train timing. Pre privatisation, Regions timed their trains but now they have to go to Network for checking against other TOCs trains and ratification. Also one person could manage an incident causing disruption but now both TOC and Network Rail have to manage.
 

Dave1987

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Given that this is indeed the case (as I know Alex knows, being a professional railwayman), surely there's more of a case to train some staff to carry out these duties to get the job moving, given that the MOM could either be right at the other end of the patch or carrying out other duties in connection with the failure?

As I said before I'm not going to comment further on this.
 

Clip

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Care to explain where there has been an increase in micromanagement (indeed there is now a government policy to cut this) and increases in the numbers of managers? The numbers speak for themselves.

What number speak for themselves? care to show me? You're the one talking about micro-management and layers of managers and supervisors and im telling you that it isnt like that when it comes to stations and booking offices.

Nowadays outside Major stations and some bigger mainline stations you dont get station managers/masters anymore. In fact in the last year the only 2 proper station only manager jobs I have seen were for FCC at King Cross and Bedford i think. Thats it. They have all been done away with.

so could you please supply these numbers that speak for themselves please or is that you opinion or from your experience in your job and therefore fact?
 

Tomnick

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As I said before I'm not going to comment further on this.
That's entirely your choice, but it's a shame that an interesting (and potentially productive) discussion has to end because one party has chosen to take their toys home!
 

Dave1987

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That's entirely your choice, but it's a shame that an interesting (and potentially productive) discussion has to end because one party has chosen to take their toys home!

I apologise, I agree that it could be a very good discussion. I really want to have this discussion with you but dont want I be accused of being a "fake" driver again.
 
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Yes I pull hand points regularly. Sorry but I don't think you can compare modern safety standards with what "used" to happen. As a driver I would rather concentrate on the rules I already have to follow, station staff are there to provide customer service to passengers. NR have their staff who are highly qualified in their field. You start trying to merge operational jobs on the railway you will compromise safety.

What if a member of station staff is the only person on site and the free range NR bods are nowhere to be seen?

Look at LUL as an example, Station Supervisors are responsible for customer service and safety critical duties. If need be a supervisor can get down on the track, clip and scotch points, remove debris from track, put out fires etc. Sometimes with traction current remaining on. Station assistants can also carry out some of these tasks. Why? because they are well trained and carry licenses for such duties. Most other TOC's will not have their station staff responsible for any such practical duties, because they will not spend the money to train staff up to this high standard.

Its got nothing to do with compromising safety, thats already being done by cost cutting schemes, trying to lay off as many staff as possible because of some political reason, all in the name of "efficiency".
 

Clip

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Its got nothing to do with compromising safety, thats already being done by cost cutting schemes, trying to lay off as many staff as possible because of some political reason, all in the name of "efficiency".

Hold on a minute, this is about efficiency in this thread. Laying off staff is as efficient as you can get when it comes to saving money. Staff cost money. Give them extra safety critical duties and they will have to have a pay rise - quite rightly. You have to pay for it with higher fares.

Im not saying its right but thats what will happen. In fact id agree to most suggestions in this thread if it helped getting the service back on track.


Are you prepared to pay for that though?
 

notadriver

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With all due respect I'm slightly dubious of your point of view anyway, not least because of the number of inconsistencies with your personal profile that have been pointed out in various places on these fora. I'm not saying it is the case, but I've heard from enough perfectly convincing fake drivers on here in my time and hopefully with that in mind, as I don't know you, you won't mind me taking what you say with a pinch of salt.

Am I a fake driver ?
 

Tom B

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Reduce the number of different bodies (public and private) with their oar in, each employing an army of administrators, customer relations executives and brand image consultants. Reduce fragmentation and improve passenger service.

(I recall a day of severe disruption to NXEC services one day at Waverley where a small army of First staff were standing around telling people that they couldn't help because it was a different company, whilst the half-dozen NXEC staff ran around like blue arsed flies trying to keep things together).

If you want to be radical, just appoint one organisation to run the whole thing on a not for profit basis, whilst ensuring that efficiency was maintained. I suggest a simple yet descriptive title - say, something like, "British Rail"?
 

AlexS

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Not as far as I'm aware. I'm going to assume that you, along with myself, are a boil in the bag railwayman from another industry (albeit I've not entered at a driver's grade) and that also like myself, you've either forgotten, or intentionally, not changed your subtitle thing (I certainly live nowhere near the Black Country now)) or that you have a thing about referring to multiple units as coaches.

I'll happily make a retraction to allow the discussion to continue, I will admit I made a fairly bloody minded comment. However, to explain - Dave1987 made a classic error by starting a post with an assumption about somebody's competence to comment on something. Therefore I decided to chuck in an assumption of my own, which may be, or as I've said, probably isn't, correct, whereby the same chap's profile, and earlier posts, don't match particularly well with how long he says he's been driving trains of late (and which has been pointed out by someone else before now).

The dangerous things about assumptions, particularly when you're using them to denigrate someone else's point of view, is that we can all make them.

So please by all means carry on with the discussion but everyone should at least do everyone else the courtesy of allowing them a fair opinion on whatever it is is being discussed.
 

HH

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Train timing. Pre privatisation, Regions timed their trains but now they have to go to Network for checking against other TOCs trains and ratification. Also one person could manage an incident causing disruption but now both TOC and Network Rail have to manage.
These are part of the money-go-round (Schedules 4 & 8). I hope to see a significant reduction of this somewhat adverserial relationship over CP5 if Alliancing takes off. I say if, because early indications show suspicion on both sides, lots of red tape at NR and an arrogance at certain TOCs (SWT, I'm looking at you kid).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its got nothing to do with compromising safety, thats already being done by cost cutting schemes, trying to lay off as many staff as possible because of some political reason, all in the name of "efficiency".
Just what staff are being cut, which is compromising safety? Now don't get all shy like Metroland since we challenged his "numbers that speak for themselves". Let's have some pure, unadulterated factoids, not just some cheap assertions.
 
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Starmill

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I'm not sure if any of these terms have been used or not, but I'll throw them out there and see how well the reality fits the economic theory (if the market is like any of the other markets in the world, then not bloody much!)

A market is quite simply a place where buyers and sellers meet to buy and sell things.

Depending on how you segment an economy, which is made up of sectors then industries then markets (sort of...) the market here is between individuals and firms. Firms are producers. It is their job to produce output by combining the inputs of land, labour and capital then sell it and hope to make a profit. In this case people are consumers. It is their job to maximise their own welfare by exchanging things they have (in this case money) for things they want more than what they have.

Elementary, you might say, but get this. What's the output? Is it transport? Or.. is it train travel? For me, if I'm going on a day out on a train, it's the latter. I'm not going to go for a day out on a bus. But for someone who wants to get from London to Birmingham, its much more likely the former. Train travel is a usually a derived demand (people demand being somewhere they currently are not, but to get it they demand trains). But enthusiasts and some day-trippers might demand the travel directly. This is a more important distinction than it seems at first, because analysis of the Transport market is arguably very different from the Rail Travel market. What people want is to be somewhere other than where they are, but to do that, some of them need trains and some don't. People commuting from St Albans to London might well be demanding the train travel itself - or at least, behaving as if they are. This could be because they do not own a car or there are no roads where they want to go, or because they love nothing more than making a five-weekly return trip, on those trains - and then all the things in between. Most people would want to consider the price, convenience, speed, conditions ect. before buying. Add to that the distinction between short and long run. In one day, somebody might have no choice but to take the train, but in a year they could arrange an alternative.

I'm coming to costs soon :)

Also, how much is being supplied? How much capacity to supply is there? These questions might seem like they have answers, but what constitutes supply for one person does not for everyone. The problem with producing services as opposed to goods is that not only do they tend to be non-homogeneous (not all the same), but their quality is much more subjective in terms of the welfare it brings consumers. True; it varies with all things, but the amount of utility (what you get back from what you paid for something) I get from a pint of milk doesn't change much from what everyone else who buys milk gets back from it. But a train journey does. It's hard to argue that movement is non-homogenous, because will people pay to be in a different place, but how long it takes what the train is like (you all know the rest...) affects it too.

So my point is, we have some very imprecise ideas about who uses the network when, where and why they do so rather than taking any other form of transport. Much less so, at least I think, than, say, Tesco knows about its customers (who they are, where they live, what they buy and when and why they shop there and not elsewhere). Price Elasticity of Demand is the responsiveness of consumer demand for a good or service in response to a change in price. (Bread is low, cars are high - its based on how much something is essential.) This is arguably THE MOST IMPORTANT thing firms need to know when setting price. The rail industry does not know this. We're into the contentious bit now, but I think that an industry which suffers as much from people simply stealing its output as this one does knows so little about how many customers it has, when they travel, where they are actually going and what they would be willing to pay for it that the business of trying to cut costs becomes futile.

Now lets look at the other side. A railway network is a "natural monopoly". The economies of scale in the industry are sooooooo big, that even when only one firm operates in the market (said "monopolist" - sole provider of trains services) they do not reach the "Minimum Efficient Scale" (the lowest level of output at which Average Cost is equal to Marginal Cost. And there is the heart of it. Average cost is the total cost per unit of output. Marginal cost is the extra cost of producing one more unit of output. Where the two meet, production is taking place at the lowest possible cost per unit (productive efficiency has been achieved).

If this does not seem obvious (I agree that it is obscure!) then think of the alternative. It is rubbish to talk about introducing competition into markets with such high costs! Should an extra railway line be built between Manchester Pic and Manchester Airport to create competition between two separate companies? I mean theoretically, this is efficient because if one company is better than the other and it has lower costs, it charges less and people go there instead. As a result the other company goes bust.... AFTER they've spent millions of pounds and demolished thousands of homes DUPLICATING A ROUTE! Indeed for true competition to apply, hundreds of alternative sellers may need to be in some markets, given the number of buyers.

Back to the numbers, I think that we should call trains natural monopolies because, if we look at the most common economies of scale, we can see them.

Marketing economies
Purchasing economies
Technical economies
Managerial economies
and so on...

I think they could all apply. Feel free to argue with me.

Last thing, my argument is, I guess, that a single firm should own, maintain, and operate everything that is railway related. That is how you drive down costs - and you expand further on what we've got. The more data we can collect, the more we can exploit these and the more synergies there will be.

But the infrastructure is a currently public asset, of crazily high value. No one private company can/would buy that.

I know... lets keep that public and rent it out to firms who produce geographically determined output.

Look how successful that was. :(
 

Metroland

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What number speak for themselves? care to show me? You're the one talking about micro-management and layers of managers and supervisors and im telling you that it isnt like that when it comes to stations and booking offices.

Nowadays outside Major stations and some bigger mainline stations you dont get station managers/masters anymore. In fact in the last year the only 2 proper station only manager jobs I have seen were for FCC at King Cross and Bedford i think. Thats it. They have all been done away with.

so could you please supply these numbers that speak for themselves please or is that you opinion or from your experience in your job and therefore fact?

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rvfm-aecom-people-march2011.pdf P31
 

Pumbaa

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Key facts; NR reported total are expected to report total efficiencies of £1.2bn in CP4 (currently ~15% above target) and a further 18% in total for CP5, which amounts to £0.6bn in operations efficiencies alone.

I think NR has made some good headway in tackling itself, and the figures are coming in better than expected. It is certainly the 'best' performing railway organisation at the moment.

Unit real term TOC staff costs have risen almost 40% since 1994. I am not of the view that rail staff are grossly overpaid, but we are approaching the point where perhaps their renumeration does not reflect their role and responsibilities.

I agree with Metroland that any other industry would have got on and sorted it out by now. Rail is not a special case; it is simply stuck in yesteryear. It does not take 17 minutes to walk from the messroom at New St to the platforms ;) for example. Working practices are very outdated, and quite frankly, sometimes out of touch with reality. Staff are monoskilled, trained by TOCs not to help others and increasinly incapable of understanding the systems with which they work on a daily basis.

TOCs are particularly reluctant to do anything to change this; they're only around for another 7 years at most. They don't see it as their role to introduce major changes or shake up the entire organisation. And there lies the problem - nobody does.

I think NR have clearly demonstrated that there are slowly (but surely) getting their house in order. Now it is the turn of the TOCs. A longer term view is needed by them, and no-one in the current setup is either obliged nor willing to take one.

Alliancing will only do so much. The current NR routes don't match current service patterns exactly, there's still a barrier between the service group and the operations group, there is still 'competition' between two different companies.

Anyway, just my tuppence.
 

Metroland

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Just what staff are being cut, which is compromising safety? Now don't get all shy like Metroland since we challenged his "numbers that speak for themselves". Let's have some pure, unadulterated factoids, not just some cheap assertions.

Believe it or not I have other things to do rather than respond to your 'cheap assertions' that I don't do my research, or other people's assertions I don't know anything about the rule book. Thankfully someone backed my up on the latter point that knows different.

Nevertheless, just for you I have pulled together some quotes and documents of interest. The long and short of it is management numbers in the railways have DOUBLED between 1999 and 2008. [Source http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/rvfm-aecom-people-march2011.pdf P31 ]

You might want to check out some other documents here.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.10420

Here's some more quotes from reports for you.

“Of the 49,445 staff employed by TOCs in 2007/08, 5,558 (about 11%) were management an dadministrative staff, representing 18% of staff costs. Between 1996/97 and 2007/08, whilst totalstaff increased by only 12% and train km8 by 17%, the number of management and administrative staff increased by 37% and their cost by 83%. Although the average staff costs of management and administrative staff is £60,993 in 2007/08, compared to £39,328 for all staff (Table 11), there has been a 34% growth in staff costs since 1996/97, which is the same as the average growth across all functions in all TOCs. One possible explanation for this significant increase in management and administrative staff is that they are the staff most involved in transactions, both with government authorities and other parts of the industry.”

Achieving value for money from people in the GB rail industry

“The Industry also has weaknesses in HR/IR management which have allowed excessive wage drift at all levels , and the continuation of inefficient working practices”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“The industry’s legal and contractual framework is complex and arguably has adverse effects on attributes and relationships, as well as engendering additional costs”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“Complex and confusing public-sector structure, with too many overlapping responsibilities and no clear command of strategy..the vacuum left by lack of industry leadership has often been filled with civil service or political leadership. Government intervention in the day-to-day business of running the railway is at an unprecedented level”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“Since 1999/00 increases in staff numbers have outstripped growth in train-km, thus causing labour productivity to fall over this period (1999/00 to 2008/09) after some initial gains in the early years following privatisation.”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“The structure and behaviours of the industry encourage individual companies to work in silos and to have minimal regard for overall system benefits. This applies to the management of people as much as any other area of activity. This leads to the duplication of activities that could be done better in a single place, if industry members were able to trust other parties to deliver their requirements. Areas such as operational control, information systems provision and industry planning all fall into this category. This lack of trust is also evidenced by the man-marking between organisations, which leads to excessive overhead cost. This applies to relationships between the administrative bodies and the operating and infrastructure companies, as well as between those companies.”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“It is widely recognised that the industry has historically had a somewhat adversarial approach to employee relations and this has been a further barrier to efficiency. The rail industry is strongly unionised and, although this is not in itself a barrier to efficiency, it does create a heavily structured environment for making progress on people issues. The industry has very complicated and extensive terms of employment, with marked differences between different groups of staff and between different employers.”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“The Study has found that the provision of retail staff is disproportionate to activity. Smaller stations account for 24% of passenger footfall. Retail productivity is lower at smaller stations, with approximately 3.5 staff per million passengers compared with 1.5 at Category A stations. At smaller stations retail staffing is largely driven by the contracted opening hours of ticket offices, whereas at larger stations sales volume is such that resourcing can be better matched to demand.

At smaller stations the majority of ticket sales take place in a three-hour period between 07:00 and 10:00, but many ticket offices are open much longer. Category D station ticket offices are open for an average of almost 13 hours on weekdays and category E for 10 hours. TOCs do not have the freedom to change opening hours as these are contractually fixed by the TSA. Opening hours can only be changed with DfT approval, which historically has been granted on only rare occasions.”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“The number of administrative organisations for GB rail gives an indication of the extent of interfaces and intervention within the industry. By their nature, these organisations will generate interaction with TOCs, NR and the rest of the industry, resulting in a headcount multiplier effect. Although the administrative bodies represent a relatively small proportion of total industry costs, streamlining these functions would reduce overall industry costs.”

Realising the Potential of GB Rail: Report into the Rail Value of Money Study.

“The Study has identified the need for improved relationships and partnering across all the industry’s activities and the relationship between employers, employees and their representatives is no exception. Faced with an extremely difficult financial position, the industry must work with its people to bring about change while keeping everybody in the industry informed. One key element of reducing the cost of the railway is reducing the industry’s employment costs. Achieving this, while ensuring that the staff remaining in the industry have more satisfying and rewarding employment, is a critical factor in delivering value for money.”

"There is a strong view within the industry that the complexity and fear of the Industry’s safety architecture is a disincentive to innovate in changing structures, resource levels, terms or conditions and reinforcing Trades Union intransigence towards change.”

Achieving value for money from people in the GB rail industry."
 
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Pumbaa

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3.4.3 Of the 49,445 staff employed by TOCs in 2007/08, 5,558 (about 11%) were management and administrative staff, representing 18% of staff costs. Between 1996/97 and 2007/08, whilst total staff increased by only 12% and train km8 by 17%, the number of management and administrative
8 Train km is the measure of output that most closely determines staff cost. A possible other measure, passenger km, grew by 50%, staff increased by 37% and their cost by 83%. Although the average staff costs of management and administrative staff is £60,993 in 2007/08, compared to £39,328 for all staff (Table 11), there has been a 34% growth in staff costs since 1996/97, which is the same as the average growth across all functions in all TOCs. One possible explanation for this significant increase in management and administrative staff is that they are the staff most involved in transactions, both with government authorities and other parts of the industry. In the first three years after privatisation, the number of these staff actually fell by over one third. In contrast, total staff numbers fell by 16% over this period.

3.4.4 After 1999/2000, the reverse happened with the number of management and administrative staff doubling between 1999/2000 and 2007/08. However, other changes could explain these trends. For example, the distinction between management and administrative staff and other staff may have changed over the period and this could explain the increase in their numbers relative to other staff. Also the increases may be partly due to TOCs taking on more responsibilities, such as in rolling stock maintenance, which would reduce costs elsewhere in the system.

I've highlighted the relevant bits. They use a slightly different benchmark to the study I have, but the findings are almost identical.
 

HH

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You clearly understand economics. It may surprise you to know that there are people in Rail who also understand it, and have done for years. That's why there is the Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook, which is chock full of data about what changes to rail services and how they affect demand. And yes, people in rail are also aware that rail is part of transport and they know that (for instance) the price of fuel affects the likelihood of using a train rather than a car. And they know that this propensity is different for a journey from Manchester to London than it is from Coventry to Birmingham.

All of this has been known since the days of BR, and yet decisions have been made that fly in the face of your conclusions. That's because these conclusions are not forgone, despite the impression that you try to give. As an economist you must know, for example, of diseconomies of scale. BR suffered from them, and NR suffer from them still. There is no clear cut and obvious answer to bringing down costs.
 

HSTEd

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Ensure any and all future rolling stock is owned directly by the state and paid for by public borrowing directly by the Debt Management office.

Won't happen as it would be socialism but it would certainly save money.

Also transfer Network Rail's debts to the public balance sheet and refinance it through gilt issues.
Same as above.
 

HH

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I'm afraid that the assertion made by McNulty wasn't checked in any way, because real management/admin numbers have not grown in any such fashion. What has happened is simply that a number of posts which didn't use to be designated as management posts now are. I can take one TOC as an example; they report around 270 staff as Management and Admin, but under BR only around 140 would have been reported as such. Really, this is shoddy work; I know for a fact that no check was done to ensure that apples were being compared with apples.
 

Clip

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Yes I've read that. Jolly interesting and the parts you quoted. Especially in the document when it said it couldn't get exact data from the TOCs and its estimates. Also,from what you quoted it states that the majority of these roles are those that have to interface with network rail and other parts of the railway. In my experience these people don't 'manage' people they manage a single function which has always been there but has never been a management grade.

Also that 11% figure included admin & hr roles but without breaking it down it doesn't back up too well what you were saying,especially with regards to stations and booking offices which you were pon about before. Again I'll tell you that most of those managerial roles have all been stripped back or out and just don't exist anymore so that cost has already been taken out.
 

HH

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There's no easy answer, but there are ways to do it, and NR has had some success so far as have the FOCs.
Yes there are ways; Alliancing is one, because it can remove some of the money-go-round posts.

There are issues with staff and management - the latter are usually promoted from within, not tested for management skills and given little or no training. For instance the sort of person who makes a good driver is in some ways the opposite of what makes a good manager, which is a massive issue when driver managers are inevitably former drivers. The general (and understandable) policy of promoting from within (not changed from BR days) means that often there is an internal blindness to failings in some areas.

And yes there are efficiencies that could be made, including the reduction of ticket office staff at some stations and DOO operation on some lines, plus a reduction of some practices that add nothing except inefficiency. But between what the unions want and the interested staff want, there would be inevitable repercussions if these are finally dealt with. And that's why they haven't been dealt with before - there is no support from DfT, and TOCs are very vulnerable to industrial action that hits revenue. Look at the profits disclosed earlier (don't even think about the losses). Even the biggest could be lost from a few days where no trains were run. I can't see too much being tackled for this reason.
 
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