How could new ECML stations (such as Reston) be served? Should the Reston project be abandoned? Should other stations be built?

[yorkie]

This thread is to complement the existing Infrastructure & Stations thread New Reston Station - Progress & Updates

Here you can discuss how Reston, along with any other potential new stations, such as East Linton, could be served.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-reston-station-progress-updates.212306/
So, we are talking about somewhere on the East Coast Main Line, the new Reston station to be built about 48 miles (give or take) out of Edinburgh, and 19 miles short of Berwick.

Which TOC(s) would operate services calling there?

 

[ScottDarg]

Which TOC(s) would operate services calling there?

The platforms have been designed to accomodate 10-coach trains, so the likes of LNER could serve it in theory.

In practice I'd expect that ScotRail would be the most likely operator through extension of their Dunbar services to Berwick - a proposal that was looked at by Transport Scotland in 2010. When it was looked at it was deemed that having stations at East Linton and Reston were required to create a case for such an extension, so it is possible that this would come back up again if both stations are approved and built: https://www.transport.gov.scot/publ...s-between-edinburgh-and-newcastle/j196975-01/

Local Services to Dunbar / Berwick

A significant number of new train paths were identified between Edinburgh and Dunbar / Berwick-upon-Tweed, and those which could be operated within existing infrastructure were identified in the analysis.

The introduction of new train services between Edinburgh and Dunbar and Edinburgh and Berwick-upon-Tweed both resulted in a BCR of less than one, ie the benefits and revenues derived from the services were not sufficient to outweigh the operating costs of the new trains, even including the benefits derived from the increase in frequency at other stations in East Lothian (between Musselburgh and Drem).

The BCRs for Dunbar services are significantly higher than for Berwick however. This is because the journey time on the stopping service from Berwick to Edinburgh is unattractive compared to existing LDHS services from Berwick, meaning the benefits of running stopping trains to Berwick are small and operating costs in this case are far higher.

Seen over a 60 year period, the cost of constructing rural railway stations and their associated infrastructure is small. New stations also generate a 60-year benefit stream from new and displaced rail users. As such, the analysis here shows that constructing and operating East Linton and / or Reston stations in association with new train services improves the relevant business case. Both stations are supported within the relevant Local Plans with appropriate provisions made.

East Linton would have a catchment area limited largely to the settlement itself, as it would not form the nearest station for any other significant East Lothian settlement. At present, rail users from East Linton generally drive to Drem and a high proportion of local residents work in the Edinburgh area.

Reston on the other hand would have a very small 'walk in' catchment but a wider local catchment including the settlements of Ayton, Chirnside, Coldingham, Duns and Eyemouth. The distances from Edinburgh mean that a very low proportion of local residents currently work in the Edinburgh area, although this could clearly change with the introduction of regular train services.

The addition of East Linton station to the new Dunbar services does result in a small positive BCR overall. In the case of Berwick services, both East Linton and Reston stations are required in conjunction with the new services to produce a small positive BCR - either of the stations on their own are not sufficient. However, these findings are very sensitive to some of the assumptions used in the appraisal. Sensitivity tests have shown that small changes in these assumptions are enough to reduce both these BCRs to values of less than one. This illustrates that the case for these services and stations is slightly positive but vulnerable to small changes

ScotRail operating services to Berwick was also discussed on this forum in 2015: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/abellio-scotrail-to-berwick.119565/page-2

If there was no extension of ScotRails Dunbar services it would obviously fall to the long-distance operators. Out of those I'd look at Cross Country and Transpennine Express as the most likely contenders.

 

[mcmad]

Believe that, at least initially, it will be one of the existing services that will stop (LNER, XC or TPE) rather than a new service given the power supply issues. Extension of the Dunbar terminators may happen later.

 

[92002]

Give that paths are at a premium on ECML it would be sensible to interest a current TOC. First thing they would need is an idea of daily passengers to make it worth their while to stop. Probably XC for a start in their new contract. However whoever it is it shouldn't be the operator who serves East Linton. If that one takes off too. Could even be TPE.
Talks of extending the Scot-Rail Dunbar services to Berwick don't sound too good an idea. That would need another 100mph path in an already busy line.

The sums though would need to add up to interest a TOC. Both for Reston and East Linton.

 

[markymark2000]

Am I missing something here as the population of Reston is 450 people and the surrounding area has very limited scope for usage. How can a station here have anywhere near enough passengers to justify the issues it will cause? Sounds like a bit of a white elephant to me.

 

[hexagon789]

Am I missing something here as the population of Reston is 450 people and the surrounding area has very limited scope for usage. How can a station here have anywhere near enough passengers to justify the issues it will cause? Sounds like a bit of a white elephant to me.

Presumably, given the size of car park, they presume people will drive from the surrounding area and then use the train to commute/travel to Berwick/Dunbar/Edinburgh etc

 

[tbtc]

Am I missing something here as the population of Reston is 450 people and the surrounding area has very limited scope for usage. How can a station here have anywhere near enough passengers to justify the issues it will cause? Sounds like a bit of a white elephant to me.

Oh, it's a complete nonsense - even if it attracts everyone in a rough area between Dunbar and Berwick (Cockburnspath, Duns, Eyemouth etc) you're still looking at a pretty low number...

...and this is meant to be opening on a fast line that will have four or five services from Edinburgh to England (assuming two LNER, one XC, one TPE plus the planned First Group Open Access service, if that ever happens?)...

...stopping the long distance services there for the sake of a couple of passengers would be A Bad Thing, but then so would cramming a 100mph ScotRail EMU on the line beyond Dunbar (esp given the lack of platform space at Berwick for any service to layover before heading north/west again)...

...but it's about ticking boxes and being seen to respond to "local stakeholders" and what not, which meanest least proposing some kind of station in every corner of the country (even if the population density is that low). There are still presumably enough people who vote, you don't want to give the impression that they are being "left behind".

(the same is true of East Linton)

 

[markymark2000]

Oh, it's a complete nonsense - even if it attracts everyone in a rough area between Dunbar and Berwick (Cockburnspath, Duns, Eyemouth etc) you're still looking at a pretty low number...

...and this is meant to be opening on a fast line that will have four or five services from Edinburgh to England (assuming two LNER, one XC, one TPE plus the planned First Group Open Access service, if that ever happens?)...

...stopping the long distance services there for the sake of a couple of passengers would be A Bad Thing, but then so would cramming a 100mph ScotRail EMU on the line beyond Dunbar (esp given the lack of platform space at Berwick for any service to layover before heading north/west again)...

...but it's about ticking boxes and being seen to respond to "local stakeholders" and what not, which meanest least proposing some kind of station in every corner of the country (even if the population density is that low). There are still presumably enough people who vote, you don't want to give the impression that they are being "left behind".

(the same is true of East Linton)

Could be a new contender for the least used station in the UK. What a complete waste of money. Whoever signed this off wants sacking for misuse of public funds.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Am I missing something here as the population of Reston is 450 people and the surrounding area has very limited scope for usage. How can a station here have anywhere near enough passengers to justify the issues it will cause? Sounds like a bit of a white elephant to me.

It's five times the population of Drem though .

The 2011 study showed a population of 14,500 in a wider catchemnt area with 5,500 in the East Berwickshire immediate area: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct..._tweed_study&usg=AOvVaw25DfXsj7h22sQNb-qmng1s

 

[dan4291]

If they're going to build new stations on this stretch of the ECML, they've got to be off the mainline with the platforms in loops allowing fast trains to pass through, otherwise congestion on an already congested line will just be ridiculous.

I guess an even more drastic solution to accommodate new stations and stopping trains (including down to Berwick) is to build a brand new railway for the express trains, bypassing the majority of these stations. Pie-in-the-sky thinking I know, but it would work.

 

[waverley47]

build a brand new railway for the express trains, bypassing the majority of these station

That's the plan eventually, but god knows how many years away that is. Various studies and plans have been mentioned on here before, I don't know which one is currently the preferred option but eventually, there might just be a HS Edinburgh-Newcastle bypass.

 

[92002]

That's the plan eventually, but god knows how many years away that is. Various studies and plans have been mentioned on here before, I don't know which one is currently the preferred option but eventually, there might just be a HS Edinburgh-Newcastle bypass.

From what little details which have been released it appears that HS2 North will generally follow the WCML and split for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

So the chances of extra lines on the ECML seem a bit pie in the sky.

 

[waverley47]

From what little details which have been released it appears that HS2 North will generally follow the WCML and split for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

So the chances of extra lines on the ECML seem a bit pie in the sky.

There have been other proposals though. I admit HS2 is definitley going to be WCML, but there have been various other pie in the sky proposals. They do seem a bit far-fetched, but then again so does building a station at Reston, so only time will tell.

In the meantime though, given we are stuck with the WCML and all its shortcomings, how many paths does that give over this stretch. I make

2 X LNER (soon to be 2.5)
2 X TPE (wasn't there something about cutting this back to Newcastle in covid timetables?)
1.5 X ScotRail (North Berwick hourly and Dunbar, although looking to get this to 2tph to North Berwick and extending the Dunbar to Berwick proper)
1 X Crosscountry
1 X freight ???

(Don't discount also the 2tph and ecs moves to Craigentinny)

Seems a bit full for the twenty miles or so between Monktonhall and Drem.

 

[Mollman]

There have been other proposals though. I admit HS2 is definitley going to be WCML, but there have been various other pie in the sky proposals. They do seem a bit far-fetched, but then again so does building a station at Reston, so only time will tell.

In the meantime though, given we are stuck with the WCML and all its shortcomings, how many paths does that give over this stretch. I make

2 X LNER (soon to be 2.5)
2 X TPE (wasn't there something about cutting this back to Newcastle in covid timetables?)
1.5 X ScotRail (North Berwick hourly and Dunbar, although looking to get this to 2tph to North Berwick and extending the Dunbar to Berwick proper)
1 X Crosscountry
1 X freight ???

(Don't discount also the 2tph and ecs moves to Craigentinny)

Seems a bit full for the twenty miles or so between Monktonhall and Drem.

There is only meant to be 1xTPE north of Newcastle whilst First's Open Access operation takes up the 0.5 that LNER isn't using. Freight seems to be bouncing back a bit, used to be very busy with coal trains which have all gone but there seems to be an increase in infrastructure workings plus containers to and from Teesside.

 

[13h202]

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that Reston won’t be a useful station, or East Linton for that matter. Connectivity is the backbone of rural economies and a railway station can transform a region’s fortunes, enabling jobseekers to find work in places they previously couldn’t access. Their income, and the money of visitors using the station to see nearby towns, feeds into the local economy and creates wealth that was impossible beforehand. You can argue that an area’s population density is low and therefore a station is not necessary, but I could make a pretty solid bet that the reason most people won’t want to live in Reston, East Linton or any nearby towns is due to that lack of connectivity. Build it and they will come, as they say. The Edinburgh commuter belt is only growing and people need places to live... it is only right that opportunity is provided for people to access wealth and move up the social ladder. The decision to build these stations isn’t box-ticking, it is the result of endless campaigning from local communities who want and need a station for their long term prosperity and feasibility studies by Transport Scotland which have taken into account pathing and usage projections.

Longer term, the capacity issues aren’t as big a deal as made out. As other users have posted, there are some fairly major projects in the works for the Scottish section of the ECML including: doubling Calton North and tri-track to Craigentinny, double-leading Portobello Jn., quad-tracking Wallyford-Drem, new HS alignment Drem-Newcastle. All of these combined will make an Edinburgh commuter standard service more than do-able all the way down to Berwick-upon-Tweed. When all of this happens, who knows but all of them are under active investigation by Transport Scotland and some even further by Network Rail.

 

[markymark2000]

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that Reston won’t be a useful station, or East Linton for that matter. Connectivity is the backbone of rural economies and a railway station can transform a region’s fortunes, enabling jobseekers to find work in places they previously couldn’t access. Their income, and the money of visitors using the station to see nearby towns, feeds into the local economy and creates wealth that was impossible beforehand. You can argue that an area’s population density is low and therefore a station is not necessary, but I could make a pretty solid bet that the reason most people won’t want to live in Reston, East Linton or any nearby towns is due to that lack of connectivity. Build it and they will come, as they say. The Edinburgh commuter belt is only growing and people need places to live... it is only right that opportunity is provided for people to access wealth and move up the social ladder. The decision to build these stations isn’t box-ticking, it is the result of endless campaigning from local communities who want and need a station for their long term prosperity and feasibility studies by Transport Scotland which have taken into account pathing and usage projections.

Longer term, the capacity issues aren’t as big a deal as made out. As other users have posted, there are some fairly major projects in the works for the Scottish section of the ECML including: doubling Calton North and tri-track to Craigentinny, double-leading Portobello Jn., quad-tracking Wallyford-Drem, new HS alignment Drem-Newcastle. All of these combined will make an Edinburgh commuter standard service more than do-able all the way down to Berwick-upon-Tweed. When all of this happens, who knows but all of them are under active investigation by Transport Scotland and some even further by Network Rail.

Stanlow and Thornton has a better financial case for an hourly service than a new station at Reston!

 

[cornishjohn]

It's five times the population of Drem though .

Didn't stop Drem car-park being pretty full most days prior to COVID. I don't think they are all locals.

I guess Reston also serves Eyemouth/Coldingham which are a bit bigger.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Didn't stop Drem car-park being pretty full most days prior to COVID. I don't think they are all locals.

I guess Reston also serves Eyemouth/Coldingham which are a bit bigger.

Indeed. 5,500 in the immediate area. 1,700 in East Linton itself. Interestingly the population of Dunbar was only about 3,000 or so until quite recently - a quick and now relatively frequent rail service into Edinburgh would have been part of that recent population growth.

 

[tomatwark]

Am I missing something here as the population of Reston is 450 people and the surrounding area has very limited scope for usage. How can a station here have anywhere near enough passengers to justify the issues it will cause? Sounds like a bit of a white elephant to me.

I think that you may find that Reston is used more than you would think.
I live about 10 miles from there I will use it, at the moment I use Tweedbsnk for Edinburgh which is just over 20 miles away.
Don't use Berwick which is slightly nearer as parking is a major issue.
You only have to drive down Castle Terrace to see how much over spill there is from car park at the station.
Think that a lot of people who live north of Berwick and travel to Edinburgh will use it.

 

[hexagon789]

Build it and they will come, as they say.

Very much so, almost all the re-openings since 2000 have been very successful in terms of creating a demand. Often demand has been much higher than forecast as well.

 

[tbtc]

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that Reston won’t be a useful station, or East Linton for that matter. Connectivity is the backbone of rural economies and a railway station can transform a region’s fortunes, enabling jobseekers to find work in places they previously couldn’t access. Their income, and the money of visitors using the station to see nearby towns, feeds into the local economy and creates wealth that was impossible beforehand. You can argue that an area’s population density is low and therefore a station is not necessary, but I could make a pretty solid bet that the reason most people won’t want to live in Reston, East Linton or any nearby towns is due to that lack of connectivity. Build it and they will come, as they say.

Well, it'll be "useful" to the (relatively low number of) people who use it. But then you could argue that Breich was "useful" to the one bloke who used it (prior to the hourly service).

But the population density around Reston *is* low, and spread amongst many small places (rather than there being one nearby town that could potentially sustain a bus service to connect with trains at Reston - e.g. ten thousand people at Haddington might make a bus to Drem feasible but the entire population of Eyemouth/ Duns/ Cockburnspath/ Grantshouse etc is still lower than Haddington, but spread of a wide area)...

...so this means that pretty much anyone in Berwickshire wanting to use the train service would need access to a car - so this is really just about people driving from their wee village to Reston versus them driving to Dunbar instead.

I can't see Ray Liota investing in a station at Reston.

Didn't stop Drem car-park being pretty full most days prior to COVID. I don't think they are all locals.

I guess Reston also serves Eyemouth/Coldingham which are a bit bigger.

Drem iOS a long established station, just a few miles from the ten thousand people of Haddington, so there's some kind of established demand.

If we lived in a world where there was no Drem station, I might argue against it as a waste of capacity on the main line (or at least insist that the station be put onto the North Berwick branch, north east of the junction)

If a station at Reston gets near the hundred thousand annual journeys Drem has then I'd be rather surprised.

Very much so, almost all the re-openings since 2000 have been very successful in terms of creating a demand. Often demand has been much higher than forecast as well.

These figures are generally skewed by three re-openings which had poor forecasts made before opening:

• Alloa: The line was going to re-open for freight, to get it off the Forth Bridge, so the price of putting these long noisy services through Alloa was a station there - so little research needed to be carried out - it wasn't built because they expected a high enough number of passengers to pass the "business case" threshold - it was going to get built anyway
• Tweedbank: The price hat the LibDems extracted from Labour for forming a coalition twenty years ago - again, a line built for other reasons than an amazing business case - Tweedbank wasn't about the cost/benefit ratio, it was about the politics. So, why carry out a thorough analysis of the business case, when the line is being built regardless? Regardless, it's still not profitable, so even if the numbers are better than the cursory surveys that were carried out, it still loses money. If Tweedbank was being assessed on business case against the likes of Methil/ Penicuik or Newcraighall to just Gorebridge then it'd never have got the go ahead - it was a purely political move (and therefore the business case didn't matter - the LibDems wanted a line into what was their heartland at the time - can't blame them - but also can't pretend that the line was built because there was an expectation good passenger numbers)
• Ebbw Vale: The line was built with the plan to run an hourly service to Newport. Figures were based upon that. However, the service was one to (the much bigger attraction of) Cardiff instead. So the fact that passenger numbers were higher is more about the fact that more people want to travel to Cardiff than to Newport. Plus, the steelworks closed down, meaning a large number of Ebbw Vale people now had to leave the town if they wanted work, which is going to have a massive impact upon demand for a train service.

In contrast, what about the initial Newcraighall re-opening? Larkhall? Anniesland? Airdrie to Bathgate? Nobody ever shouts about those lines being great examples of re-openings. (and plenty more further south - Robin Hood, Corby etc)

 

[hexagon789]

Well, it'll be "useful" to the (relatively low number of) people who use it. But then you could argue that Breich was "useful" to the one bloke who used it (prior to the hourly service).

But the population density around Reston *is* low, and spread amongst many small places (rather than there being one nearby town that could potentially sustain a bus service to connect with trains at Reston - e.g. ten thousand people at Haddington might make a bus to Drem feasible but the entire population of Eyemouth/ Duns/ Cockburnspath/ Grantshouse etc is still lower than Haddington, but spread of a wide area)...

...so this means that pretty much anyone in Berwickshire wanting to use the train service would need access to a car - so this is really just about people driving from their wee village to Reston versus them driving to Dunbar instead.

I can't see Ray Liota investing in a station at Reston.



Drem iOS a long established station, just a few miles from the ten thousand people of Haddington, so there's some kind of established demand.

If we lived in a world where there was no Drem station, I might argue against it as a waste of capacity on the main line (or at least insist that the station be put onto the North Berwick branch, north east of the junction)

If a station at Reston gets near the hundred thousand annual journeys Drem has then I'd be rather surprised.



These figures are generally skewed by three re-openings which had poor forecasts made before opening:

• Alloa: The line was going to re-open for freight, to get it off the Forth Bridge, so the price of putting these long noisy services through Alloa was a station there - so little research needed to be carried out - it wasn't built because they expected a high enough number of passengers to pass the "business case" threshold - it was going to get built anyway
• Tweedbank: The price hat the LibDems extracted from Labour for forming a coalition twenty years ago - again, a line built for other reasons than an amazing business case - Tweedbank wasn't about the cost/benefit ratio, it was about the politics. So, why carry out a thorough analysis of the business case, when the line is being built regardless? Regardless, it's still not profitable, so even if the numbers are better than the cursory surveys that were carried out, it still loses money. If Tweedbank was being assessed on business case against the likes of Methil/ Penicuik or Newcraighall to just Gorebridge then it'd never have got the go ahead - it was a purely political move (and therefore the business case didn't matter - the LibDems wanted a line into what was their heartland at the time - can't blame them - but also can't pretend that the line was built because there was an expectation good passenger numbers)
• Ebbw Vale: The line was built with the plan to run an hourly service to Newport. Figures were based upon that. However, the service was one to (the much bigger attraction of) Cardiff instead. So the fact that passenger numbers were higher is more about the fact that more people want to travel to Cardiff than to Newport. Plus, the steelworks closed down, meaning a large number of Ebbw Vale people now had to leave the town if they wanted work, which is going to have a massive impact upon demand for a train service.

In contrast, what about the initial Newcraighall re-opening? Larkhall? Anniesland? Airdrie to Bathgate? Nobody ever shouts about those lines being great examples of re-openings. (and plenty more further south - Robin Hood, Corby etc)

Airdrie to Bathgate has proved useful as a secondary Edinburgh-Glasgow line at times of disruption though I admit I'm not sure how successful the intermediate stations have been

 

[waverley47]

There is only meant to be 1xTPE north of Newcastle whilst First's Open Access operation takes up the 0.5 that LNER isn't using. Freight seems to be bouncing back a bit, used to be very busy with coal trains which have all gone but there seems to be an increase in infrastructure workings plus containers to and from Teesside.

Thanks for the update re TPE, I'd thought there were two but I guess one gets curtailed at Newcaslte.

With freight, there seems to be one path each way between Teesside and Mossend/Grangemouth. One train in one direction each day on the Elderslie containers and the alcan. A couple of engineers each way, and any paths for the nukes from Torness.

The strategic study seemed to aspire for one class four or one class six per hour which seems a bit much, but if the potential for growth is there then why not. Seems a bit full to push an extension to Berwick, but if it manages to fit just in front of the North Berwick path, it can get pretty far without being caught up.*

*Working:

The only 125 sections are along the straights at Drem and Longniddry, and the only >100 running is between Dunbar and Musselburgh. After Dunbar, it's a max 95 railway to Berwick, and so all trains will have basically the same speeds along this section.

The North Berwick trains leave EDB at xx.40.

The LNER trains leave EDB at xx.00, and take 20 minutes to get to Dunbar. In comparison, the Dunbar terminators leave EDB at xx.12, and take 25 minutes to get to Dunbar with one stop. This means the speed differential of a 100 vs 125 unit along this section is 5 minutes.

If the Dunbar terminators leave just before the North Berwick stopper, they have a good hour to get to Berwick in time. The top of the hour LNER reaches Berwick 40 minutes after leaving Edinburgh, and so any ScotRail to Berwick leaving at xx.35 has until xx.35 the next hour to clear the platform at Berwick.

I can imagine a journey time of 55 minutes with four stops (Musselburgh, East Linton, Dunbar, Reston and Berwick) which might be a bit too close to being caught up, but probably doable. This is fifteen minutes longer than the LNER because: 5 minutes speed differential and ~3 minutes total lost per stop.

In summary, it's probably just about workable if you leave just before the North Berwick stopper.

 

[OmniCity999]

issues regarding cramming a 100mph path?

just terminate some Scotrail HST services at Berwick or add a bay platform at Reston and terminate there. Also negates the need for Dunbar expresses.

ill get my coat & stick to the buses!

 

[Class 170101]

Could it make as difference using Class 350/2s which will be homeless once Class 730s start appearing on LM services? (110mph Class 350s).

Thanks for the update re TPE, I'd thought there were two but I guess one gets curtailed at Newcaslte.

With freight, there seems to be one path each way between Teesside and Mossend/Grangemouth. One train in one direction each day on the Elderslie containers and the alcan. A couple of engineers each way, and any paths for the nukes from Torness.

The strategic study seemed to aspire for one class four or one class six per hour which seems a bit much, but if the potential for growth is there then why not. Seems a bit full to push an extension to Berwick, but if it manages to fit just in front of the North Berwick path, it can get pretty far without being caught up.*

*Working:

The only 125 sections are along the straights at Drem and Longniddry, and the only >100 running is between Dunbar and Musselburgh. After Dunbar, it's a max 95 railway to Berwick, and so all trains will have basically the same speeds along this section.

The North Berwick trains leave EDB at xx.40.

The LNER trains leave EDB at xx.00, and take 20 minutes to get to Dunbar. In comparison, the Dunbar terminators leave EDB at xx.12, and take 25 minutes to get to Dunbar with one stop. This means the speed differential of a 100 vs 125 unit along this section is 5 minutes.

If the Dunbar terminators leave just before the North Berwick stopper, they have a good hour to get to Berwick in time. The top of the hour LNER reaches Berwick 40 minutes after leaving Edinburgh, and so any ScotRail to Berwick leaving at xx.35 has until xx.35 the next hour to clear the platform at Berwick.

I can imagine a journey time of 55 minutes with four stops (Musselburgh, East Linton, Dunbar, Reston and Berwick) which might be a bit too close to being caught up, but probably doable. This is fifteen minutes longer than the LNER because: 5 minutes speed differential and ~3 minutes total lost per stop.

In summary, it's probably just about workable if you leave just before the North Berwick stopper.

 

[waverley47]

Could it make as difference using Class 350/2s which will be homeless once Class 730s start appearing on LM services? (110mph Class 350s).

Unfortunately the platforms are optimised for 6*23m, and it makes sense to concentrate the 385s on the Edinburgh workings as the depot is at Millerhill. The acceleration on the 385s is also absolutely ample to fit in the paths, and again, you'd save about 2 minutes* with a 110 unit anyway, so not worth it.

*5 minute speed differential between Edinburgh and Dunbar minus the 3 minutes for the Musselburgh stop

 

[bluesfromagun]

Give that paths are at a premium on ECML it would be sensible to interest a current TOC. First thing they would need is an idea of daily passengers to make it worth their while to stop. Probably XC for a start in their new contract. However whoever it is it shouldn't be the operator who serves East Linton. If that one takes off too. Could even be TPE.
Talks of extending the Scot-Rail Dunbar services to Berwick don't sound too good an idea. That would need another 100mph path in an already busy line.

The sums though would need to add up to interest a TOC. Both for Reston and East Linton.

I don't think pathing for 100mph would be an issue, between Dunbar and Berwick only the few miles from Dunbar to Dunglass is in excess of 100mph linespeed, and given the acceleration of a 385, I'd be very surprised if the timings for a 385 between Dunbar and Berwick with a Reston stop were any more than 2 - 3mins in excess of what XC / LNER / TPE get.
Of course, a bit of blue sky thinking would have those services as extended Aberdeen to Edinburghs, running straight through to Newcastle utilising 125mph HSTs already on the Aberdeen - Edinburgh portion and probably stealing quite a bit of custom from LNER...

 

[92002]

I don't think pathing for 100mph would be an issue, between Dunbar and Berwick only the few miles from Dunbar to Dunglass is in excess of 100mph linespeed, and given the acceleration of a 385, I'd be very surprised if the timings for a 385 between Dunbar and Berwick with a Reston stop were any more than 2 - 3mins in excess of what XC / LNER / TPE get.
Of course, a bit of blue sky thinking would have those services as extended Aberdeen to Edinburghs, running straight through to Newcastle utilising 125mph HSTs already on the Aberdeen - Edinburgh portion and probably stealing quite a bit of custom from LNER...

No matter who or what TOC decide to throw their hat into stopping at Reston or for that matter East Linton. It's a long way to go from Edinburgh just for a handful of passengers.

If it were Scotrail they could extend a 4 or 5 car HST to Berwick. Would that be a worthwhile journey and turn a profit. However where does it then go to turn back. Probably the only option is to cross the bridge to Tweedbank. . So do you then carry on to Newcastle. Apart from it being a dirty old diesel train that is not going to be allowed for too much longer. If it were a 385 just where does the extra 385 magically appear from to do the journey. Is it a good use for the train and does it make any money to pay for itself and the extra mileage and crew.

Probably much easier just to stop a long distance train. Although the numbers on offer need to make that worthwhile too.

There are of course slower freight trains on the ECML tracks too. They also need to be considered. They were there before any of the new stations now planned and need to be encouraged to become longer and harder to get out of the way. If there was more modal shift from roads.

So maybe just not as simple as it seems.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think pathing for 100mph would be an issue, between Dunbar and Berwick only the few miles from Dunbar to Dunglass is in excess of 100mph linespeed, and given the acceleration of a 385, I'd be very surprised if the timings for a 385 between Dunbar and Berwick with a Reston stop were any more than 2 - 3mins in excess of what XC / LNER / TPE get.
Of course, a bit of blue sky thinking would have those services as extended Aberdeen to Edinburghs, running straight through to Newcastle utilising 125mph HSTs already on the Aberdeen - Edinburgh portion and probably stealing quite a bit of custom from LNER...

The problem with the HST will be acceleration from stops, potentially this could be poor. This potentially compromises the paths on the ECML between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Unfortunately the platforms are optimised for 6*23m, and it makes sense to concentrate the 385s on the Edinburgh workings as the depot is at Millerhill. The acceleration on the 385s is also absolutely ample to fit in the paths, and again, you'd save about 2 minutes* with a 110 unit anyway, so not worth it.

*5 minute speed differential between Edinburgh and Dunbar minus the 3 minutes for the Musselburgh stop

But do you have enough Class 385s to run extra services? Hence the Class 350s.

No matter who or what TOC decide to throw their hat into stopping at Reston or for that matter East Linton. It's a long way to go from Edinburgh just for a handful of passengers.

If it were Scotrail they could extend a 4 or 5 car HST to Berwick. Would that be a worthwhile journey and turn a profit. However where does it then go to turn back. Probably the only option is to cross the bridge to Tweedbank. . So do you then carry on to Newcastle. Apart from it being a dirty old diesel train that is not going to be allowed for too much longer. If it were a 385 just where does the extra 385 magically appear from to do the journey. Is it a good use for the train and does it make any money to pay for itself and the extra mileage and crew.

Probably much easier just to stop a long distance train. Although the numbers on offer need to make that worthwhile too.

There are of course slower freight trains on the ECML tracks too. They also need to be considered. They were there before any of the new stations now planned and need to be encouraged to become longer and harder to get out of the way. If there was more modal shift from roads.

So maybe just not as simple as it seems.

I would wonder is it possible to merge the Northern service between Newcastle and Morpeth / Chathill and the Scotrail service between Edinburgh and Dunbar and run as one local service between Edinburgh and Newcastle using Electric Trains (subject to power supply).

The timetable will almost certainly need to be flighted to create a large enough gap for a Class 4 / 6 Freight to either run straight through between Edinburgh and Newcastle or have a sufficiently large gap to make it between the appropriate loops that accommodate lengths of freights expected.