How could Okehampton patronage be increased (including bus links/through fares)?

[The exile]

The irony of that, as ever, is that cartels are generally beneficial for public transport users. The car and the taxi prevent them abusing their position by overcharging.

Never a truer word….

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem with an integrated express bus is that if you live in Tavistock you almost certainly have access to a car.
Although its 4 times the distance geographically Tiverton Parkway is reliably only about 30 mins longer away by road (a30 & M5) vice Plymouth.
Saving 90mins on the rail journey to anywhere East of Exeter from Plymouth and with a more frequent service.
Knocks £20 per person off the price of an example off peak return to Paddington.
Tivvy Parkway parking is 2/3rds the cost of Plymouth.
Tavistock itself has no parking which allows more than 24 hr.
Bit of a no brainer really.

Not if you want to go to Plymouth!

 

[paul1609]

I suspect the biggest sticking point is who pays to maintain the data. With the way the rail industry systems are set up at the moment, NR would need to set up the bus links in it's system and then get the bus companies to send NR files to upload. Obviously this has a staffing requirement to build and maintain, as well as software licensing costs etc. In a sensible world, there'd be a point in the process where bus companies could link their systems in directly to the files before they're sent out downstream, but that also has an implementation cost.
It's classic case of 'we all love the idea, but want you to pay for it.' Which goes down about as well as you'd think it would.

I suspect the biggest sticking point is that despite enthusiasts liking for such schemes the take up would likely be close to nil.
See the post on the other thread on this forum about the bus driver who had driven for the 2 major bus providers in England for 7 years, had received plusbus ticket training from both but had never seen a single plusbus ticket.
The day trip to Calais ticket had been forgotten all about with the opening of the channel tunnel by Southeastern. It only came to life again with the opening of HS1 domestic services because it was any permitted and inadvertently was priced cheaper than a plus hs 1 ticket to the Kent Coast. After being made "not hs1" it sold an average of 1 a day until it was dropped during covid.

Not if you want to go to Plymouth!

The problem is that if you want to go to Plymouth you want to go to Derriford Hospital, the out of town shopping centres along the main road, the employment along the main road, Plymouth Argyle and sports facilities none of which would be served by a non stop bus to the station (or the railway to be fair). So you have an express bus service to the station which only very few niche passengers want to go to.

 

[bramling]

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

* The Isle of Wight is another one, which is how it sustains possibly the best rural bus network in the world, and certainly the best in the UK.

The other thing with the IOW is the faff and expense of the car ferry, and the relatively poor quality of the road network on the island - it isn’t really a great place to drive. The latter could also be said for Devon and Cornwall, in parts at least.

 

[Bald Rick]

So you have an express bus service to the station which only very few niche passengers want to go to.

But it would be rather better to test that with a bus service that has only running costs, rather than a railway that costs £100m+ and running higher costs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

See the post on the other thread on this forum about the bus driver who had driven for the 2 major bus providers in England for 7 years, had received plusbus ticket training from both but had never seen a single plusbus ticket.

Probably because they're not promoted at all. If you go to London, look how many outboundary Travelcards you see.

 

[paul1609]

But it would be rather better to test that with a bus service that has only running costs, rather than a railway that costs £100m+ and running higher costs?

I agree, I can't for the life of me understand why you'd want to spend £100m on a railway that takes the population of 11k to where they don't want to go. You only have to go just down the A38 to see the moss covered car parks at Ivybridge Parkway and ask where the extensive bus connections that initially ran round every estate Ivybridge had have gone.

 

[BrianW]

Not if you want to go to Plymouth!

Bude- Plymouth Rail Stn by bus#12 via Launceston = 2h17m

12 - Plymouth to Bude, via Saltash, St Mellion, Callington, Stoke Climsland, Launceston and Whitstone

Timetable for 12 - Plymouth to Bude, via Saltash, St Mellion, Callington, Stoke Climsland, Launceston and Whitstone

www.plymouthbus.co.uk

Bude- Exeter via Okehampton by bus #6 = 2h28m
.... via Okehampton and train = 1h52m
https://www.visitbude.info/bus-timetables/bude-exeter-bus-timetable/

Tavistock- Plymouth North Road via Derriford hospital Bus #1 = 50mins (1h05 pk)

There's an X1 bus that omits the hospital but goes via Devonport High School for Boys; it takes about the same time. Not sure what that tells us, but it's hard to believe an 'express' bus would save time over Dartmoor or through the 'suburbs' to the station and/or 'city centre' (Royal Parade).

I think many journey decisions will be decided by the journeys to/from the bus/ train if it exists and at what time(s) and price- the 'business case'!!

 

[yorksrob]

As described on the Tavistock thread, yes. It is well used, it is slower than a railway would be, but then it stops a lot. No one has tested a non stop bus Tavistock - Plymouth, integrated to the rail fares system, which would be cheaper to run, cost nothing to ‘build’, and could be done in a couple of months rather than waiting 8 years.

There's still congestion to contend with.

pleasant enough town and still a drinking centre for Young Farmers Clubs and Senior Walkers who mostly arrive in Hondas Id imagine.

Slightly worrying if they leave in them as well !

 

[stuu]

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

* The Isle of Wight is another one, which is how it sustains possibly the best rural bus network in the world, and certainly the best in the UK.

I read this and wondered about the truth of it, as a resident of the south west this strikes me as nonsense

It is, 7% of visitors to Cornwall come by train (2018 figure). I'm also dubious about the young Londoners comment, any source for that? It's true of a few trendy places like Rock and Polzeath, but not generally

I suspect the biggest sticking point is that despite enthusiasts liking for such schemes the take up would likely be close to nil.
See the post on the other thread on this forum about the bus driver who had driven for the 2 major bus providers in England for 7 years, had received plusbus ticket training from both but had never seen a single plusbus ticket..

I used to catch the 28 bus in Taunton every day for work, which goes to Minehead. You can book through tickets exactly as if it were a rail service, and it was very common to see people wave their orange train tickets at the driver.

Publicity and ease of purchase is the key - National Rail Enquiries includes Minehead as a destination and will sell you a through ticket. The bus is advertised at Taunton Station on the departure board.

Why this isn't done everywhere is quite beyond me

 

[RPI]

The 16:32 from Exeter Central to Okehampton was very well loaded tonight at St Davids, few stood in the vestibules, admittedly I don't know how many were going to Crediton!

 

[Geoff DC]

The problem in Cornwall for bus travel is that between June & October, Fred & Eva from Yorkshire & all their offspring from all points south turn up in their cars and block all the roads, so bus travel is a mode of desperation & need, but not anything you could rely on timewise.

I read this and wondered about the truth of it, as a resident of the south west this strikes me as nonsense

It is, 7% of visitors to Cornwall come by train (2018 figure). I'm also dubious about the young Londoners comment, any source for that? It's true of a few trendy places like Rock and Polzeath, but not generally

I think its mainly Porthemmet they come to by train.
Porthemmet is by far one of the busiest stations in Cornwall and I would recomend it to Visitors, by far th ebest palce in Cornwall to stay & also thebest beach

 

[Bald Rick]

Porthemmet - very good!

 

[the sniper]

Nobody ever seems to try that sort of thing in the UK, which is a crying shame. Even Trawscymru isn't fully integrated, and as those are tendered there's literally nothing stopping them doing it, it was a deliberate decision not to do so.

Somewhat off topic for this thread, but this is another incomprehensible aspect of transport policy in Wales to me. Why does Trawscymru even exist as a separate brand now? Surely a priority should at least be sharing the TfW brand and having ticketing and timetables fully integrated. (I would admittedly go as far as to have the bus drivers employed by TfW, with the T&C/benefits that would bring them, and provide them with proper training. Have a fleet of European quality buses and you've relatively cheaply got yourself an unusually respectable bus operation/national transport system, by British standards...)

 

[Irascible]

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

Many of whom were incarcerated in D&C until they were old enough to get out on their own... I wonder how many 20 quid returns I must have bought over the years.

Most of the tourists though will only go as far as the rail-connected places, such as Newquay and Torbay. Ilfracombe and Tavistock are going to be of niche interest at best, surely?

Ilfracombe was once a well served holiday destination, of course. Now it's a dump. I don't know who'd go to Tavistock at all?

Perhaps. Bude is the fairly obvious touristy place that isn't accessible by rail, I guess, but there are others.

I'm not sure it was particularily accessible by rail even when it had a railway! the line was built to serve Holsworthy with Bude a bit of an afterthought & was one of those wandering North Devon/Cornwall lines that make you wonder what anyone was thinking when it was laid out. Bude's roads all run east-west & not down to join the trunk roads, it's a bit of a wierd one.

 

[stuu]

Ilfracombe was once a well served holiday destination, of course. Now it's a dump. I don't know who'd go to Tavistock at all?

There's far worse holiday resorts than Ilfracombe, it was rammed when I last went there in the Summer. The whole of north Devon gets extremely busy, vanishingly few of whom will have travelled there by train, as anyone who has ever tried to park in Woolacombe in the Summer will have noticed

 

[nw1]

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

* The Isle of Wight is another one, which is how it sustains possibly the best rural bus network in the world, and certainly the best in the UK.

I have been impressed by the frequency of the IoW bus network, which seems almost urban (and seems to keep going well into the evening). Last visited in 2015, though, before recent cuts have bitten. That said, I will say that IoW buses do seem very expensive, tourists might be able to afford but might be tricky for locals.

There's far worse holiday resorts than Ilfracombe, it was rammed when I last went there in the Summer. The whole of north Devon gets extremely busy, vanishingly few of whom will have travelled there by train, as anyone who has ever tried to park in Woolacombe in the Summer will have noticed

While not exceptionally pretty, I'm not sure Ilfracombe is quite as bad as people make it out to be. (I have been there twice, in 2006 and 2010).
The bit along the sea was actually quite nice I remember, though the high street is a bit gritty.

 

[yorksrob]

There's far worse holiday resorts than Ilfracombe, it was rammed when I last went there in the Summer. The whole of north Devon gets extremely busy, vanishingly few of whom will have travelled there by train, as anyone who has ever tried to park in Woolacombe in the Summer will have noticed

Given that most of it is nowhere near a station anymore, that's hardly a surprise.

When I used the Okehampton line this year, it didn't strike me as overly tree lined. It seemed like pretty, bucolic if unspectacular Devon countryside to me.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Relatives who live in Camelford now drive to Okehampton to catch the train there, rather than to Bodmin Parkway as previously, if travelling up to London.

That would appear to be a disbenefit of the Okehampton re-opening to the railway and also to the environment, since that means your relatives are driving for more of the journey and using the train for less of the journey. (Presumably a benefit to your relatives though who are getting a better way to get to London).

 

[stuu]

Given that most of it is nowhere near a station anymore, that's hardly a surprise.

Very true. It was a snide remark at the ludicrous suggestion made on this thread that a large proportion of travellers arrive by train. Which they don't

 

[yorksrob]

Very true. It was a snide remark at the ludicrous suggestion made on this thread that a large proportion of travellers arrive by train. Which they don't

That said, a reasonable proportion travel to the rail connected resorts in South Devon and Cornwall, so there's nothing to suggest that they wouldn't to the North if the connections were there.

 

[paul1609]

That said, a reasonable proportion travel to the rail connected resorts in South Devon and Cornwall, so there's nothing to suggest that they wouldn't to the North if the connections were there.

Its a reasonable number but as a proportion of the total traffic travelling down Id say its pretty low, going by the traffic on the M5.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I read this and wondered about the truth of it, as a resident of the south west this strikes me as nonsense

It is, 7% of visitors to Cornwall come by train (2018 figure).

7% by train is a large amount compared to other locations. I’m sure fewer than 7% of tourists arrive in the Cotswolds or Snowdonia by train, for example.

 

[zwk500]

7% by train is a large amount compared to other locations. I’m sure fewer than 7% of tourists arrive in the Cotswolds or Snowdonia by train, for example.

But compared to Brighton, Blackpool or Scarborough I suspect 7% isn't that big a proportion. Cornwall is probably more a seaside resort than it is a hillwalking area.

 

[Kilopylae]

Keswick is a wonderful example here. There's an excellent bus service which runs from directly outside the station straight to one of the busiest towns in the Lake District, and even if you have to wait a bit you can sit with a cup of tea in the adjacent McDonald's at any time of day. But if you put it in the NRE journey planner, you just get "no station found". This is literally throwing away money, even if all you did was sell the single bus fare and send it straight to Stagecoach, or even if you just put it in the timetable stating the bus fare has to be paid on the day (as contactless makes this rather easy). Same with Ambleside from Windermere. The railway must lose tens of thousands worth of business each year over this simple matter, because "we're a train, that's a bus, we're different".

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car,

That's very interesting; I didn't know this was unique to Devon.

Is it true to any extent of the Chilterns, or am I allowing my own experience to bias me?

Slightly worrying if they leave in them as well !

I take it you haven't driven in Devon after about 8 PM then?

 

[The Ham]

But compared to Brighton, Blackpool or Scarborough I suspect 7% isn't that big a proportion. Cornwall is probably more a seaside resort than it is a hillwalking area.

Rail works best for dense urban areas, so it's not surprise that those three towns have a greater number of people using rail. Especially Brighton which had half the population of the whole of Cornwall and a much higher frequency of rail service.

Even Scarborough has a to population 50% larger than the biggest settlement in Cornwall - that being Redruth (including Camborne) which isn't coastal (others may wish to comment on how likely people are to visit there for lesure purposes, but I won't).

Crediton also sees passengers to and from Okehampton.

Given that Crediton saw station use rise by 27% (puts it within the top 50 stations for passenger growth between 2019/20 and 2021/22) when the Okehampton trains were only really running for 6 months of the time that the data covers. It's clear that it's benefited from the increase in services.

 

[yorksrob]

Couldn't have put it better myself.


That's very interesting; I didn't know this was unique to Devon.

Is it true to any extent of the Chilterns, or am I allowing my own experience to bias me?


I take it you haven't driven in Devon after about 8 PM then?

Considering I don't drive, no

 

[Irascible]

There's far worse holiday resorts than Ilfracombe, it was rammed when I last went there in the Summer. The whole of north Devon gets extremely busy, vanishingly few of whom will have travelled there by train, as anyone who has ever tried to park in Woolacombe in the Summer will have noticed

There are. When you're not stopping for holidays & you're around the entire year, then matters are different, as they are a lot of places in D&C & as anyone else who's lived in a slightly remote resort might tell you.

I wouldn't try parking *in* Wollacombe ever, there's a car park along most of the length of the beach halfway up the cliff ( well, the dunes ). Traffic in the whole area has been abysmal since I started driving & going up there regularily - at least one thing the link road did was take traffic off the old main roads until you get to the Barnstaple area, they're both fun & generally empty if not actually faster overall.

Er, this is so far off topic I forgot the topic! will end it here

 

[nw1]

That would appear to be a disbenefit of the Okehampton re-opening to the railway and also to the environment, since that means your relatives are driving for more of the journey and using the train for less of the journey. (Presumably a benefit to your relatives though who are getting a better way to get to London).

Perhaps, but it looks a considerably more direct route with significantly less overall mileage (no huge dogleg west and south via Plymouth) so perhaps the environmental disbenefits of more of the journey being done by car are less clear cut. I have visited this area (in the 90s) and Camelford to Bodmin is itself some distance, albeit not as far as Okehampton.

Anyhow, who's for an Okehampton-Padstow fast bus, calling at the towns only and routed this way?

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyhow, who's for an Okehampton-Padstow fast bus, calling at the towns only and routed this way?

Not if it's run by Stagecoach. It wouldn't turn up.