How do you feel about rail staff travel

[O L Leigh]

It's hardly beyond the wit of man to (shock horror) work together to avoid unnecessary industrial action, or at least bad relations. After all, the availability of Priv discounts on Off-Peak tickets, and for TOCNE staff at all, is purely down to cross-industry cooperation.

Perhaps so, but this is an entirely different thing. What you are expecting to happen here is for other TOCs to underwrite the cost of a non-salary benefit for staff who are not employed by them. This could only work where it is offered right across the board to all eligible staff as a national agreement, irrespective of employer, in lieu of a pay increase. But then why should we accept that? Why should the staff from TOC A be expected to agree to such a thing simply because TOC B cannot reach any agreement with their staff?

It's a nice idea but I don't see it working in the real world. It's also far from the easy-sell.

Well all I can say that is in every management briefing that I attended in Network Rail the question about lack of travel facilities for non safeguarded NR staff always came up without fail in the Q&A session at the end.

Yes, because I dare say that there are people who do want such an extension for non-safeguarded staff. But a few depot agitators does not a movement make.

 

[Journeyman]

Well all I can say that is in every management briefing that I attended in Network Rail the question about lack of travel facilities for non safeguarded NR staff always came up without fail in the Q&A session at the end.

Let's put it this way - not enough people care enough about the issue for the industry to need to do anything.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps so, but this is an entirely different thing. What you are expecting to happen here is for other TOCs to underwrite the cost of a non-salary benefit for staff who are not employed by them. This could only work where it is offered right across the board to all eligible staff as a national agreement, irrespective of employer, in lieu of a pay increase. But then why should we accept that? Why should the staff from TOC A be expected to agree to such a thing simply because TOC B cannot reach any agreement with their staff?

I think some national agreements are certainly in order, though they're probably unlikely to occur anytime soon.

I really see little difference between this and the introduction and extension of the Priv discount card. Everyone loses a little bit of revenue in exchange for a morale boost and a notable employument benefit.

In this case 75% of the potential discount has already been given, and it's simply about upping that to 100%.

 

[O L Leigh]

I really see little difference between this and the introduction and extension of the Priv discount card. Everyone loses a little bit of revenue in exchange for a morale boost and a notable employument benefit.

If this could be done as a separate thing outside of any pay increase then I would agree with you. But if the proposal is to have this in lieu of a pay increase then I can't agree that this is a good news story for the reasons that I have outlined already.

But then this is a hypothetical discussion anyway because, as other posters have outlined, this cannot happen anyway except at the volition of the TOCs themselves.

 

[pitdiver]

When I took voluntary severance from TfL/LUL in 2005 I was offered two options, a free Oyster for myself and my wife or a PTAC valid on National Rail for us both. As we didn't live in London I took the latter In addition I also Priv rate set on Oyster cards for both myself and my wife. So on the odd occasion that we go to London it is quite inexpensive. I in addition I have a free bus pass. So I can't complain.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

On the subject of TPE, do people find more of their guards are strict when it comes to allowing other TOC staff a free ride, even after asking? I don't think I've been refused with them, but heard a few stories from others.

I'm not sure it's wise for people to divulge too much on a publicly visible forum

I have to agree with Yorkie, however I will say this on the subject of free rides:-
All TOCs have staff willing to give free rides, All TOCs also have staff who stick rigidly the rules. Certain TOCs and certain train crew depots will no doubt have reputations for bending the rules, others for being strict with the rules. While people on here will have their opinions as to which TOC plays ball and which one doesn't (and I certainly have mine) I don't think it should be divulged on here nor should any TOC be singled out by individuals on here. It is a staff privelege after all, it is not a right and all staff should see it that way and be prepared to follow the Ts & Cs.

Best advice I can give is ask the guard/conductor/train manager before you board if you can buy a priv off them and see what they have to say. Some staff will refuse to sell and tell you to get on board, others will appreciate the commission. But don't simply jump on board and assume anything, otherwise you could end up having your passes revoked

 

[35B]

My personal view is my opinion is so irrelevant I haven't even come up with one - this is a contractural thing between you and your (possibly former) employer(s). The only thing I do feel strongly about is that promised privileges ought to be preserved, even if said promises were unwise.

As a member of the travelling public I'd obviously prefer it if your unions used their power a bit more wisely and the worst 2% (and it is only the worst 2%) of the customer facing roles were culled/reassigned every year but essentially this isn't up to me - I can always use other means of transport if they're too arsey and if others feel the same eventually the lines/services will be culled.

As a non-railwayman, my only issue with Priv travel is the disconnect it causes between those who have it, and see the world through the lens of that privilege, and the customers who pay the bills.

 

[scrapy]

It is widely believed that TOC revenue from PRIV tickets has increased since off peak tickets were allowed to be discounted (obviously dropped off again with Covid). Staff are far more likely to buy a ticket than speaking to the guard as used to be the norm and probably will make more journeys. When only Anytime tickets could be discounted on a lot of journeys such as Manchester to London it was cheaper to buy a full rate off peak return than a priv discounted anytime return.

 

[bramling]

As a non-railwayman, my only issue with Priv travel is the disconnect it causes between those who have it, and see the world through the lens of that privilege, and the customers who pay the bills.

I’m not sure that’s true, given that not *that* many railway staff make much use of their privilege travel. I suspect a lot of people use if rarely if ever.

 

[35B]

I’m not sure that’s true, given that not *that* many railway staff make much use of their privilege travel. I suspect a lot of people use if rarely if ever.

It's those who do that concern me - their experience being very different from the rest of us.

 

[dk1]

I make much use of my safeguarded free boxes & priv rate fares for shorter trips. The fact that working for a TOC also gives me unlimited travel for my own parent company means I often have unused boxes at the end of each year. If this awful pandemic has taught me anything it’s that I’m not going to let that happen in future. Time to book even more getaways & get travelling.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well all I can say that is in every management briefing that I attended in Network Rail the question about lack of travel facilities for non safeguarded NR staff always came up without fail in the Q&A session at the end.

Indeed - and there’s a very small number of people who keep bringing it up!

 

[Wallsendmag]

I make much use of my safeguarded free boxes & priv rate fares for shorter trips. The fact that working for a TOC also gives me unlimited travel for my own parent company means I often have unused boxes at the end of each year. If this awful pandemic has taught me anything it’s that I’m not going to let that happen in future. Time to book even more getaways & get travelling.

Same here

 

[HullRailMan]

The current system is extraordinarily generous and far more than most other workers have access to. Train crew are very well paid for a job that requires no formal qualifications, in an industry currently being propped up by the taxpayer. Compare this to nurses (for example), who have to pay for their training and have a lower starting salary, and those complaining about having to pay 25% of their travel cost look incredibly greedy! Any benefit/discount is a perk and better than nothing.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Yeah, and it's a taxable benefit too, so if you never use it, it costs you a small amount of money.

It’s NOT taxable for most staff.

I think tax is only payable if the benefit is ‘bought in’ from RDG, something that TOCs don’t have to do but a few ancillary companies choose to.

 

[1955LR]

As a none rail employee , but involved in car discounts for staff in the motor industry, I believe it would be taxable as benefit in kind, if the train in question was full and a paying customer could not travel as a consequence of a Privilege holder travelling instead . Do privilege holders have to make way for paying public?

 

[Gloster]

As a none rail employee , but involved in car discounts for staff in the motor industry, I believe it would be taxable as benefit in kind, if the train in question was full and a paying customer could not travel as a consequence of a Privilege holder travelling instead . Do privilege holders have to make way for paying public?

My recollection from BR days was that you had to be prepared to give up your seat if requested, whether you were travelling on a free ticket or just on a reduced Priv rate ticket. However, you didn’t have to leave the train. (But it is around forty years since I read the regulations in detail.)

 

[Bald Rick]

As a none rail employee , but involved in car discounts for staff in the motor industry, I believe it would be taxable as benefit in kind, if the train in question was full and a paying customer could not travel as a consequence of a Privilege holder travelling instead . Do privilege holders have to make way for paying public?

My recollection from BR days was that you had to be prepared to give up your seat if requested, whether you were travelling on a free ticket or just on a reduced Priv rate ticket. However, you didn’t have to leave the train. (But it is around forty years since I read the regulations in detail.)

Correct. And not just when requested, but whenever fare paying passengers were standing.

However I have been offered seats when standing by RPIs where they have booted out a non first class ticket holder in first class much more often (countless times) than I have been asked to give up my seat by an RPI (twice)

 

[Haywain]

I have to agree with Yorkie, however I will say this on the subject of free rides:-
All TOCs have staff willing to give free rides, All TOCs also have staff who stick rigidly the rules. Certain TOCs and certain train crew depots will no doubt have reputations for bending the rules, others for being strict with the rules. While people on here will have their opinions as to which TOC plays ball and which one doesn't (and I certainly have mine) I don't think it should be divulged on here nor should any TOC be singled out by individuals on here. It is a staff privelege after all, it is not a right and all staff should see it that way and be prepared to follow the Ts & Cs.

Best advice I can give is ask the guard/conductor/train manager before you board if you can buy a priv off them and see what they have to say. Some staff will refuse to sell and tell you to get on board, others will appreciate the commission. But don't simply jump on board and assume anything, otherwise you could end up having your passes revoked

Personally, I take the view that you should just buy a ticket but I appreciate that other see it differently. What I would add, though, is that those who expect you to pay your way should not be demonised in any way - they are doing their job in accordance with the same rules that we are all bound by and you wouldn't want them to ignore the rules in other areas of their work.

As a non-railwayman, my only issue with Priv travel is the disconnect it causes between those who have it, and see the world through the lens of that privilege, and the customers who pay the bills.

I'm not sure what you mean. The customers believe they pay the bills, although it is the government at present, but are not held to the same standards of behaviour as rail staff - I know of a couple who have lost their jobs through their behaviour while travelling which would not have happened to ordinary fare paying passengers.

 

[43066]

As a non-railwayman, my only issue with Priv travel is the disconnect it causes between those who have it, and see the world through the lens of that privilege, and the customers who pay the bills.

Many companies in all kinds of industries give their staff discounts on their products. Paying a lot less (or nothing) for a service is a useful benefit, but doesn’t make you see it through any kind of rose tinted lens, especially when you’re using trains to commute yourself.

As a none rail employee , but involved in car discounts for staff in the motor industry, I believe it would be taxable as benefit in kind, if the train in question was full and a paying customer could not travel as a consequence of a Privilege holder travelling instead . Do privilege holders have to make way for paying public?

Not in my experience - priv ticket holders are members of the paying public themselves. In just the same way an advanced ticket holder wouldn’t be asked to give up their seat for someone who had paid a higher walk up fare (and advances can be cheaper than priv tickets which are only available for walk ups).

There are many railstaff who never use these facilities so it would be impossible to value as a benefit in kind. In any case, as someone noted above, the cost of providing priv discounts is negligible.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are many railstaff who never use these facilities so it would be impossible to value as a benefit in kind. In any case, as someone noted above, the cost of providing priv discounts is negligible.

But it is taxed as a benefit in kind for some people. Me included. No doubt that in the last year I paid more in tax on it than the fares I would have paid for the limited rail travel I did!

 

[43066]

But it is taxed as a benefit in kind for some people. Me included. No doubt that in the last year I paid more in tax on it than the fares I would have paid for the limited rail travel I did!

Fair enough - not sure how the distinction is applied as it certainly isn’t a BIK for many. Unless the first class element of yours makes a difference?

 

[rg177]

I work for a light rail operator that has a motley selection of agreements with various bus and rail operators.

The free rail travel I get certainly encourages me to use them more and staff are generally always very positive/accommodating when I show my pass.

Even when free/discounted travel agreements don't exist, I've found rail staff up my end to be great. As an example, I'm currently aboard a TPE service where the guard has ushered me into First Class having clocked that I work for said light rail operator!

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair enough - not sure how the distinction is applied as it certainly isn’t a BIK for many. Unless the first class element of yours makes a difference?

I believe it is where the employer has to pay RDG for it; the benefit in kind is the value that the employer pays. About £1500 a year IIRC.

 

[Annetts key]

It’s NOT taxable for most staff.

I think tax is only payable if the benefit is ‘bought in’ from RDG, something that TOCs don’t have to do but a few ancillary companies choose to.

It’s taxable as a benefit in kind if the company that you are employed by has to pay another company for the provision of the service. For employees of a TOC travelling on a railway service provided by that same TOC, no money changes hands, hence there is no tax to pay.

However, if you have BR travel facilities, the company that your are employed by (including TOCs) has to pay Rail Staff Travel/Rail Delivery Group (RDG) money. And hence this is classed as a benefit in kind and you will be taxed on it, regardless if you actually use the facilities.

Oh, and Network Rail can hardly be called an ancillary company. There may well be other companies that still have some staff with BR travel facilities.

As a none rail employee , but involved in car discounts for staff in the motor industry, I believe it would be taxable as benefit in kind, if the train in question was full and a paying customer could not travel as a consequence of a Privilege holder travelling instead . Do privilege holders have to make way for paying public?

Yes, a member of staff travelling using BR travel facilities is required to give up ‘their’ seat. If the train is nearly full, you are also supposed to get off and use the next service unless this is not practical.

I don’t know what the situation is with TOC employees travelling on a service operated by their TOC.

My recollection from BR days was that you had to be prepared to give up your seat if requested, whether you were travelling on a free ticket or just on a reduced Priv rate ticket. However, you didn’t have to leave the train. (But it is around forty years since I read the regulations in detail.)

Yep, it’s still the same.

Oh, and it’s been RMT policy for a considerable number of years to try to get all the railway companies together to try to sort out better travel facilities for employees that are not former BR staff. But it’s like trying to herd geese...

 

[43066]

I believe it is where the employer has to pay RDG for it; the benefit in kind is the value that the employer pays. About £1500 a year IIRC.

Ah yes, that would explain it. Very irritating if you don’t really use it!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

However, if you have BR travel facilities, the company that your are employed by (including TOCs) has to pay Rail Staff Travel/Rail Delivery Group (RDG) money. And hence this is classed as a benefit in kind and you will be taxed on it, regardless if you actually use the facilities.

I have had BR travel facilities for over 40 years and can assure you that they are not taxable.

 

[telstarbox]

I have to agree with Yorkie, however I will say this on the subject of free rides:-
All TOCs have staff willing to give free rides, All TOCs also have staff who stick rigidly the rules. Certain TOCs and certain train crew depots will no doubt have reputations for bending the rules, others for being strict with the rules. While people on here will have their opinions as to which TOC plays ball and which one doesn't (and I certainly have mine) I don't think it should be divulged on here nor should any TOC be singled out by individuals on here. It is a staff privelege after all, it is not a right and all staff should see it that way and be prepared to follow the Ts & Cs.

Best advice I can give is ask the guard/conductor/train manager before you board if you can buy a priv off them and see what they have to say. Some staff will refuse to sell and tell you to get on board, others will appreciate the commission. But don't simply jump on board and assume anything, otherwise you could end up having your passes revoked

Would a guard / TM ever get into hot water for giving staff a free ride (say if an RPI boarded) ? Or do they have absolute discretion on their own train?

 

[Bald Rick]

I have had BR travel facilities for over 40 years and can assure you that they are not taxable.

I have had them for 30, and I can assure you mine are taxable, and have been since 1996!

 

[Annetts key]

I have had BR travel facilities for over 40 years and can assure you that they are not taxable.

Maybe you can argue my case with the inland revenue then...