How easy is it to fare dodge?

[Clansman]

Disclaimer: In no way am I seeking for fare dodging tips

I'm just looking for your opinions on fare dodging. Yesterday I was onboard the 17.21 HST from Sheffield to Glasgow, and there was a woman who boarded without a ticket and I overheard her say to someone on the phone how she would have to pay for her ticket onboard etc. So, the guard doesn't show up and as a result the woman gets a freebee to York. Alebeit she was not a fare dodger, but I can't help thinking how easy it could have been for someone to fare dodge on that service and many others where the guard doesn't show*. Only upon departing Darlington does the guard check for tickets, with another getting on at Newcastle to commence a further check, as well as one at Edinburgh who didn't at all.

I've seen my fare share (pun intended) of fare dodgers and I'm very surprised at how easy they can get away with it. Another example was when I was on a Pendolino from Glasgow, and someone boarded the train with a friend and sat in first class - both of whom hadn't any tickets. As the guard preceeded to make his way into the carriage, the 2 women hid in the toilets and waited until the guard passed through both times. Thus, they got a free journey to Carlisle.

So ultimatley...in your opinion, just how easy is it to fare dodge, how people get away with it, and what can be done to stop it?

 

[TheEdge]

Very, simply there are a million and one ways to do it. And there are just not enough staff or enough time for the existing staff to stop it all.

 

[AlterEgo]

In which part of the country? The answer differs depending on the journey!

 

[Clansman]

In which part of the country? The answer differs depending on the journey!

Applies to any part of the UK. I've seen many ways people do it from top to toe, from London services to rural ones.

As said, I understand certain factors can impact on ones' success of dodging such as how busy a train is, to if ones' destination has ticket barriers.

 

[Butts]

Well if you had been travelling on any of the Scotrail Rail Replacement Bus Services over the last three months - very easy.

Despite scores of journeys my ticket was never checked once - neither was anyone else's that I observed.

We are talking a potential Journey from Edinburgh to Dunblane.

 

[Flying Snail]

I've seen my fare share (pun intended) of fare dodgers and I'm very surprised at how easy they can get away with it. Another example was when I was on a Pendolino from Glasgow, and someone boarded the train with a friend and sat in first class - both of whom hadn't any tickets. As the guard preceeded to make his way into the carriage, the 2 women hid in the toilets and waited until the guard passed through both times. Thus, they got a free journey to Carlisle.

I expect they wouldn't have got away with it had you mentioned to the guard the suspicious behaviour of 2 people running to the crapper every time he approached.

 

[Clansman]

Well if you had been travelling on any of the Scotrail Rail Replacement Bus Services over the last three months - very easy.

Despite scores of journeys my ticket was never checked once - neither was anyone else's that I observed.

We are talking a potential Journey from Edinburgh to Dunblane.

Same applies to me as well, albeit it wasn't a replacement bus (but have been in the same instance recently). The last Glasgow QS to Dundee service yesterday I was on consisted of 2 x 170s, and not once did the guard bother to check any tickets, and not once did he attemped to change units to check them further, as guards normally do. No wonder Abellio tried to introduce certain measures of which I won't mention....

I expect they wouldn't have got away with it had you mentioned to the guard the suspicious behaviour of 2 people running to the crapper every time he approached.

It's none of my business to get involved in what other folk were doing. As far as I'm concerned isn't it up to the guard to check the toilets on his way through the train? Also, the catering crew were through a couple of times and should've checked for a valid ticket before serving complementaries, so I'd of assumed they'd of taken care of it. They wouldn't have even gotten onto the train had barriers been installed across platforms 1 and 2 at Glasgow Central and at Carlisle.

 

[Butts]

Same applies to me as well, albeit it wasn't a replacement bus (but have been in the same instance recently). The last Glasgow QS to Dundee service yesterday I was on consisted of 2 x 170s, and not once did the guard bother to check any tickets, and not once did he attemped to change units to check them further, as guards normally do. No wonder Abellio tried to introduce certain measures of which I won't mention....

Very rare to get a ticket check on any late night service out of Edinburgh at least after Edinburgh Park and before Falkirk Grahamston. A lot of them are rammed at the moment with all the festive imbibing.

 

[yorkie]

The answer will vary hugely by service, depending on numerous factors. So there is no sensible conclusion that can be reached. I don't see how I can vote for any of the options; none of the questions can accurately answer the question.

I think we're just going to get a thread full of methods that will sometimes work on some trains, and sometimes won't work.

Also, the catering crew were through a couple of times and should've checked for a valid ticket before serving complementaries, so I'd of assumed they'd of taken care of it.

On most train companies it's not the job of catering staff to do this, but it does vary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yesterday I was onboard the 17.21 HST from Sheffield to Glasgow, and there was a woman who boarded without a ticket and I overheard her say to someone on the phone how she would have to pay for her ticket onboard etc.

Where did she start her journey by rail, where did she finish it, and was she returning, and do we know what happened at York? Unless you know she was doing a Sheffield to York single journey and was hoping the Guard wouldn't come round to avoid going to the ticket office, it is difficult to make an accusation of dodging.

For all we know (unless you can provide more info), she could have started her journey at Dore, and then bought a ticket on her next train from York, and asked for a return which would have been pennies more than a single back.

 

[Clansman]

Very rare to get a ticket check on any late night service out of Edinburgh at least after Edinburgh Park and before Falkirk Grahamston. A lot of them are rammed at the moment with all the festive imbibing.

Indeed. Couple of days ago a service to Perth (of which I was standing till Dunfermline) broke out in song started from a hen night, surprised the guard didn't want to join in with the festive cheer

Just shows you though that if you are a fare dodger, busy periods like this make it a hot time to chance your luck.

On most train companies it's not the job of catering staff to do this, but it does vary.

Happened to me more often than not where the guard hasn't reached that area of the train yet, both from Scotrail to Virgin, but as you said it's not their job and that it varies.

Where did she start her journey by rail, where did she finish it, and was she returning, and do we know what happened at York? Unless you know she was doing a Sheffield to York single journey and was hoping the Guard wouldn't come round to avoid going to the ticket office, it is difficult to make an accusation of dodging.

For all we know (unless you can provide more info), she could have started her journey at Dore, and then bought a ticket on her next train from York, and asked for a return which would have been pennies more than a single back.

In hindsight I should of been a bit more leniant with what I was saying and I agree with you completely. I've added in an extra line to clarify the situation in a balanced manor.

However, I boarded at Sheffield as well and I recall her seeing her walking through the main entrance and straight onto the platform. Indeed she was not a fare dodger as such but I was highlighting how easy it could be to dodge a fare in that instance; which is a more common occurrence than not, where the guard doesn't appear.

As for York, I have no idea what happened - but given that it is an open station (barrierless) it's easy to speculate should she have been travelling no further.

 

[me123]

As has been said - variable, but generally pretty easy I would say.

Some services are very easy - on ex SPT services in the Glasgow area, the frequent stops and lenient TTIs make things nice and easy (if you won't pay, they'll usually just tell you to get off). On others it can be a bit more difficult - when the train doesn't stop for over an hour, there's only so much time you can spend in the toilet before someone will start to get concerned, and in some parts of the country the revenue protection staff have more teeth than others.

On the whole, I think it's relatively easy to do. Not that I do it nor do I condone it, but where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Clansman]

As has been said - variable, but generally pretty easy I would say.

Some services are very easy - on ex SPT services in the Glasgow area, the frequent stops and lenient TTIs make things nice and easy (if you won't pay, they'll usually just tell you to get off). On others it can be a bit more difficult - when the train doesn't stop for over an hour, there's only so much time you can spend in the toilet before someone will start to get concerned, and in some parts of the country the revenue protection staff have more teeth than others.

On the whole, I think it's relatively easy to do. Not that I do it nor do I condone it, but where there's a will there's a way.

Agree with you there, although it only takes someone to stay in the loo unlocked for a minute or 2 until the guard has passed.

 

[underbank]

Very, simply there are a million and one ways to do it. And there are just not enough staff or enough time for the existing staff to stop it all.

Yet the few staff they have don't give a toss either. It's well know on the Morecambe - Lancaster line that you don't need to buy a ticket. Unmanned stations at Morecambe and Bare Lane, and an open gate next to the platform at Lancaster. Guards on the trains seldom even try to sell tickets - journey too short for them to sell more than a handful of tickets anyway. Never ever seen any staff at any of these stations checking tickets upon exit.

 

[Flying Snail]

It's none of my business to get involved in what other folk were doing.

Except when it comes to reporting their actions on the internet where they have no opportunity to refute your claims of wrongdoing.

As far as I'm concerned isn't it up to the guard to check the toilets on his way through the train?

So guards now ought to barge in to every occupied toilet just in case someone might be fare dodging? I can't see any complaints arising from that course of action, I am sure all the non fare-evading people accosted by the guard while sat on the toilet will be very understanding about the situation. :roll:

Also, the catering crew were through a couple of times and should've checked for a valid ticket before serving complementaries, so I'd of assumed they'd of taken care of it.

I have never had VTWC catering staff ask for tickets in 1st, it isn't their jobs and I doubt they are trained in ticketing.

They wouldn't have even gotten onto the train had barriers been installed across platforms 1 and 2 at Glasgow Central and at Carlisle.

There are plenty of ways to get past barriers and still fare-dodge and last time I checked ticket barriers have no way of stopping people sitting in 1st when they are not entitled.

 

[6Gman]

As has been said - variable, but generally pretty easy I would say.

Until they get caught.

And come on here.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

the answer will vary hugely by service, depending on numerous factors. So there is no sensible conclusion that can be reached. I don't see how i can vote for any of the options; none of the questions can accurately answer the question.

I think we're just going to get a thread full of methods that will sometimes work on some trains, and sometimes won't work.

^^+1^^

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Very easy... until you get caught!

 

[LowLevel]

As others have said. It's very easy on some routes. With the tag that many of said evaders have no idea of the consequences of being caught. I've had a few people dragged off by constables in tears over it.

As it happens I was on the same train as the OP on Friday and my ticket was gripped between Birmingham and Derby - there's only so much you can do though.

 

[bb21]

Yet the few staff they have don't give a toss either. It's well know on the Morecambe - Lancaster line that you don't need to buy a ticket. Unmanned stations at Morecambe and Bare Lane, and an open gate next to the platform at Lancaster. Guards on the trains seldom even try to sell tickets - journey too short for them to sell more than a handful of tickets anyway. Never ever seen any staff at any of these stations checking tickets upon exit.

That is the complete opposite to when I used those services, and I have used them quite a lot over the years.

I suppose it depends on who you get and what time of the day it was. IME all the Northern guards I came across were very proactive in selling tickets, even when they knew they wouldn't be able to get through everyone.

 

[philthetube]

Well if you had been travelling on any of the Scotrail Rail Replacement Bus Services over the last three months - very easy.

Despite scores of journeys my ticket was never checked once - neither was anyone else's that I observed.

We are talking a potential Journey from Edinburgh to Dunblane.

I have never shown a ticket on any rail replacement service.

 

[The Ham]

I have never shown a ticket on any rail replacement service.

I don't recall having to do so either, however the amount of money that a TOC losses through people saying "is a real replacement bus so I'm not going to travel" is probably a lot more than anyone who thinks "I'm sure to get a free journey as it's rail replacement buses".

 

[al78]

The answer will be highly dependent on the journey. The journey from Gomshall to Horsham, with a meal stop in Redhill would be trivial to make for free. No ticket facilities at Gomshall, no Guard coming through the train to check or buy ticket from. Get to Redhill, take the open rear exit from platform 3. Eat at the Toby Carvery, have a drink, go back to platform 3 sometime after 11pm, catch Horsham train. Again, no-one checks tickets, get to Horsham and walk through the barrier which is now open because it is unstaffed at that time of night.

 

[Hadders]

It's relatively easy to fare dodge. It's also just as easy (if not easier) to walk out of a supermarket or restaurant without paying.

In an ideal world TOCs would make sure that every single ticket was checked but this simply isn't possible. TOCs have to weigh up the cost of revenue checks against the additional ticket sales they would gain and also consider the effect of staff safety, punctuality etc.

As in all organisations there are some staff who perform their duties correctly and TOCs should deal with these people.

 

[swt class 450]

It is extremely easy to fare evade nowadays. I travel by train every day and the last time that i had my tickets checked was October 2015 (over a year ago)! I travel on at least four trains a day (and often as many as 10 or 15 in one day). I mainly use SN / SE / SWT / GWR services.

Many Guards don't seem to want to check tickets. I was speaking to a Southern Guard last week who said that he doesn't check tickets any more because he thinks its unfair to go around checking tickets when the service is so bad and unreliable.

Most stations in the UK do not have any ticket barriers and the ones that do are very often left open. Even at major stations like London Waterloo the ticket barriers are always left open after about 22:00 or 23:00 every day. At some stations like Lewes / Burgess Hill / Haywards Heath the ticket barrier staff will always open the barriers when a train arrives as it makes it quicker for passengers! And if the ticket barriers are shut it is still easy to use an old invalid ticket as many staff do not bother to look at your tickets properly or will just wave you through.

There are many journeys though that do not involve going through any ticket barriers.

There are some journeys on the network which are basically free (as there is no way to pay). For example if you want to travel between Heyford and Tackley neither station has any TVM or PERTIS. Both are unstaffed. All trains are DOO. The same applies for journeys between Drayton Green and Castle Bar Park and South Greenford and probably lots of others.

RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) are extremely rare. In all my years of travelling on the railways i have never seen an RPI (not even once)!

So there are plenty of journeys in the UK where it is very simple and easy to fare evade.

 

[Holly]

... There are some journeys on the network which are basically free (as there is no way to pay). For example if you want to travel between Heyford and Tackley neither station has any TVM or PERTIS. Both are unstaffed. All trains are DOO. The same applies for journeys between Drayton Green and Castle Bar Park and South Greenford and probably lots of others. ...

What should one do if one is an honest person making such a journey?

Should one write to the TOC after making the journey to enquire as to the price of a ticket and offer to pay for it by return of cheque for example?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Things are also far too easy for the aggressive avoider - who simply power past RPIs/RPAs and away from the situation. There needs to be more support to ensure that people who do evade fares are caught, or their identity is verified before they are allowed to leave.

However, there also needs to be the recognition that sometimes the railway gets it wrong and those passengers who do provide their details are allowed to continue their journey with minimum delay and any irregularities corrected later.

 

[swt class 450]

What should one do if one is an honest person making such a journey?

Should one write to the TOC after making the journey to enquire as to the price of a ticket and offer to pay for it by return of cheque for example?

That is a very good question and i dont think there really is an answer to it. I think even if you are an honest person you just have to travel for free (and i imagine thats what all people who make these journeys do).

 

[Zxwii]

That is a very good question and i dont think there really is an answer to it. I think even if you are an honest person you just have to travel for free (and i imagine thats what all people who make these journeys do).

Go on the train companies website and buy a ticket there?

 

[swt class 450]

Go on the train companies website and buy a ticket there?

Not everyone always has access to a bank card or the internet though.

 

[Holly]

Not everyone always has access to a bank card or the internet though.

And even if they do websites typically do not allow buying a ticket for a travel date and time in the past.
Or at least I think this is not possible?