How feasible would it be to convert Class 60s for passenger use?

[TimboM]

I believe more of the issue with the Class 60s is - since the demise of heavy industries such as coal and steel in the U.K. - there is simply not the work anymore for a fleet of 100 of them.

Even if DB Cargo sold/hired them to competitors (with right clauses in place) the vast majority of the fleet wouldn't be taken up I don't think as they don't match the requirements of much of today's freight. Colas have of coursse taken a few for specific work (e.g. Log trains) but on the whole their slow speed and high running costs don't make them attractive in the current market.

Hence why the likes of DRS have gone and bought new locos that are much more suited (100 mph, mixed traffic, efficient etc).

 

[richieb1971]

I believe more of the issue with the Class 60s is - since the demise of heavy industries such as coal and steel in the U.K. - there is simply not the work anymore for a fleet of 100 of them.

It boggles the mind what BR were thinking in 1989. Because apart from the 66 no other freight loco has been replicated 100 times. Whilst trying to trump the class 59's strong area, they failed to produce anything meaningful anywhere else. They could have made 100 modern 47's and they would have been better suited to todays traffic. Shame really.


So we have had 20+ 68's, 30+ 70's and 500 66's or so since the 60 was developed. And 30 67's.

 

[najaB]

It boggles the mind what BR were thinking in 1989.

In 1989 the coal market was robust and the steel plants were still in decent health.

 

[TimboM]

So we have had 20+ 68's, 30+ 70's and 500 66's or so since the 60 was developed. And 30 67's.

...and many of the 70s and 67s are now surplus to requirements too.

 

[CosherB]

It boggles the mind what BR were thinking in 1989. Because apart from the 66 no other freight loco has been replicated 100 times. Whilst trying to trump the class 59's strong area, they failed to produce anything meaningful anywhere else. They could have made 100 modern 47's and they would have been better suited to todays traffic. Shame really.

So we have had 20+ 68's, 30+ 70's and 500 66's or so since the 60 was developed. And 30 67's.

So prey tell me, with your crystal ball, are we buying the correct locomotives now when looking back in 2045?

And, 135 x 56s and 50 x 58s appeared just before 1989 .....

I do wonder what would have happened if the British Railways Board had the balls to pick the GEC / EMD proposal for the Class 60 rather than Brush offering. Would they all still be in service and would EWS have only ordered 150 66s? Over to you richieb1971 ......

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yes there were these loco fleets coming on stream at the time, remember tho these replaced 20, 25, 26, 31, 33, 37 and 47 while some of those 37 and 47 displaced along with the introduction of the HST and electra fleets were adapted and replaced 40, 45/46, 50, and 55. Meanwhile the 90 and 92 saw off the 1st generation electrics 81-85 while many 86s were retasked onto freight.

The problem was with privatisation the americans came in and decided there were still too many locos of various types and reliability was poor. There were still 20, 31, 33 in traffic, Plus the 37, 47 and by now the 56 were ageing themselves. The 58 and 60 werent up to standard either although things were improving they were still fitted with 1960's based traction equipment - 56 and 58 were essentially 47's with 50 engines in them. Standardisation across the network saw the 66 introduced utilising the 59 body fitted with updated engine and electronics which meant the lead time on introduction was greatly reduced. The 66 was so good at what it did it essentially became the black 5 of its time - as was the 47 back in the 1970's. As the older locos depreciated and failed and the work started drying up these were sidelined in favour of the newer locos. Its economic sense as much as its devastating to the enthusiast.

37, 56 and 58 saw use overseas as construction locos and were literally flogged until they dropped. I wouldnt be suprised if this now happens to the 60's for HS2 construction.

 

[D365]

Although recently the Class 37s (and to a lesser extent the Class 56s) have seen a resurgence of sorts...

 

[Emblematic]

...and many of the 70s and 67s are now surplus to requirements too.

Agree on the 67s, but there are seven more class 70s on the way for Colas, so they clearly don't agree that there's a surplus (and Freightliner clearly weren't interested in reducing their fleet.)

 

[TimboM]

Agree on the 67s, but there are seven more class 70s on the way for Colas, so they clearly don't agree that there's a surplus (and Freightliner clearly weren't interested in reducing their fleet.)

I was referring to the fact Freightliner have recently stored six of their 70s and have several others not being used for various reasons. It's a different topic, but Colas will have ordered theirs well before Freightliner started to reduce the use of theirs.

The point being that there's increasingly less work for heavy freight locos which are only a few years old, let alone 60s which are c.25 years old.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure there is middle ground on hiring out that would guarantee an operative income plus profit. If you lose out to the competition out right, you don't get anything at all. If DBS hired out on day 1 all the other FOC's probably would be getting by with ex DBS stock instead of buying incredibly expensive new stock whilst old stock was sitting rusting away. I see your point, but there is always more than one way to look at something.

Just get a lawyer involved and put a clause that you cannot steal existing DBS work.

I doubt your lawyer would advise you to sign an agreement limiting your companies freedom to seek work at the expense of one of your major competitors.

It boggles the mind what BR were thinking in 1989. Because apart from the 66 no other freight loco has been replicated 100 times. Whilst trying to trump the class 59's strong area, they failed to produce anything meaningful anywhere else. They could have made 100 modern 47's and they would have been better suited to todays traffic. Shame really.


So we have had 20+ 68's, 30+ 70's and 500 66's or so since the 60 was developed. And 30 67's.

They had work at the time. The mines and steel works were still going although down on when the 60's were first conceived. Sadly those industries didn't last much longer................

 

[richieb1971]

If 2 class 50's are being sold for £110k with mainline certificates these 60's can't be worth that much.

How much time does it take for a class 60 to make £100k worth of profits after being refurbished? It very much sounds like their existence is not warranted.

I can't believe a replacement cog can't gear these for an extra 15 mph.

I might even write to Brush and ask them this myself just to put this debate to rest.

 

[CosherB]

If 2 class 50's are being sold for £110k with mainline certificates these 60's can't be worth that much.

How much time does it take for a class 60 to make £100k worth of profits after being refurbished? It very much sounds like their existence is not warranted.

I can't believe a replacement cog can't gear these for an extra 15 mph.

I might even write to Brush and ask them this myself just to put this debate to rest.

Please let us know how you get on with Wabtec Brush - I for once am waiting with baited breath.

 

[richieb1971]

I emailed them. Lets see if they will respond.

 

[DarloRich]

I emailed them. Lets see if they will respond.

I bet they don't respond other than to say the information is commercially sensitive

 

[Cowley]

I hope they do respond and someone comes round to give you the hard sell like a desperate double glazing salesman that you can't get rid of

 

[CosherB]

I hope they do respond and someone comes round to give you the hard sell like a desperate double glazing salesman that you can't get rid of

That would be a wet dream to some on here ..... especially the fella late of this forum that wanted to buy a 60 and put it in his garden!

 

[broadgage]

Park them up, plug them in to the National Grid and get a contract under the Capacity Market to provide peak-shave electricity.

It might yet come to that !
The national grid are short of generating capacity to satisfy the peak demand on winter evenings.
A maximum of a few dozen hours a year, and more likely to be used just a few hours a year.

Low capital cost is important for plant that will get little use. I wonder how the cost of converting ex locomotives would compare with purpose built generating sets ?
The main generator would have to be replaced with one designed for 11KV, and synchronising switchgear fitted.
I suspect that the work required might make the ex loco unfit to move by rail and turn it into a static generating unit.
Alternatively it might be simpler to lift out the power units and use these as the basis for building some cheap generating sets. Scrap the remains after salvaging useful components.

 

[Pete_uk]

Top and tailed 60's with 12 mk3s would take off like a overpowered DMU

 

[najaB]

Top and tailed 60's with 12 mk3s would take off like a overpowered DMU

And then the DMU will overtake it a mile or so down the line.

 

[43096]

Top and tailed 60's with 12 mk3s would take off like a overpowered DMU

Would it? Power to weight ratio would be less than a 2+8 HST.

 

[CosherB]

Top and tailed 60's with 12 mk3s would take off like a overpowered DMU

Why 12?

 

[TimboM]

Would it? Power to weight ratio would be less than a 2+8 HST.

Somewhat less streamlined too.

 

[jopsuk]

Why 12?

Because he wants a train that won't fit in terminal stations?

 

[snakeeyes]

It might yet come to that !
The national grid are short of generating capacity to satisfy the peak demand on winter evenings.
A maximum of a few dozen hours a year, and more likely to be used just a few hours a year.

Low capital cost is important for plant that will get little use. I wonder how the cost of converting ex locomotives would compare with purpose built generating sets ?
The main generator would have to be replaced with one designed for 11KV, and synchronising switchgear fitted.
I suspect that the work required might make the ex loco unfit to move by rail and turn it into a static generating unit.
Alternatively it might be simpler to lift out the power units and use these as the basis for building some cheap generating sets. Scrap the remains after salvaging useful components.

Derby converted a class17 in the early 1970's to power the works

 

[cjmillsnun]

Im not suggesting anything apart from Class 60s which is the nature of this topic. If you have nothing positive to contribute to the thread then please feel free to stay out.

For someone with only 24 posts to your name, you're quite rude.

I am going to echo others comments. It wasn't a suitable loco to be converted into passenger use, particularly when demand for passenger locos is going down as most services move towards multiple unit operation. Like it or not, economics dictate that MUs are the future.

Sleeper services and TPE are the exceptions (I have no idea why in the case of TPE)

 

[6Gman]

Electric HSTs?

Steam 442s?

 

[tbtc]

Sleeper services and TPE are the exceptions (I have no idea why in the case of TPE)

For TPE, I think that it's a combination of "something that they can order fairly urgently" (tagging it on to the CAF order for Sleeper coaches) and "something that can provide capacity in the short term but be easily converted to electric haulage once the wires start to go up".

The Mk5a coaches are merely a blip on an otherwise uninterrupted downward trajectory of loco haulage - it's more about getting something up and running before the wires go up (that can be used once the wires are up).

As for the rest of the thread... well, there seems to be a lot of imagination on the Forum these days. Converting 43s for freight and converting 60s for passenger use?

Or was it adding pantographs to 43s and converting 91s onto sleepers/ freight? 37s on the Highland Main Line and Sleepers to Wick? I even saw one suggestion at a line from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen!

I think that 6Gman's suggestion of steam hauled 442s looks more likely

 

[najaB]

37s on the Highland Main Line and Sleepers to Wick?

The 37s are for the Kyle line.

 

[snakeeyes]

The 37s are for the Kyle line.

Is this true?

 

[najaB]

Is this true?

Sorry, that was where the wibble was mooting them for. There are no concrete proposals as far as I know.