How feasible would it be to convert Class 60s for passenger use?

[BR60062]

Being a fan of the Class 60 myself. They are my favourite diesel locomotives and whilst it would be nice to see them work as a potential passenger locomoitves. In all honesty. An operator would need to have deep pockets to make it even remotely viable. For instance. I don't think the Mirrlees PU would be suitable or even capable of handling the load that the HEP/ETH generator would require (is it 480 volts 3 phase AC for carriages?) plus the load of the traction motors required.

Another factor is the weight of these beasts. As they weigh in at around 126 tons per locomotive as other locomotives are much lighter than this that work on passenger trains . The weight alone would restrict the Class 60 or even prohibit them from working certain routes and lines around the UK .

Then the locomotives would need completely new bogies with new traction equipment built for higher speeds as the ones that were designed in 1987/8 were not designed for passenger train use. Also I think the Class 60's would have to have their cab interiors completely rebuilt with new controls and an interface for the extra features like HEP. Push-Pull etc. The costs involved would be nearly as much as buying some ugly modern plastic off the shelf and I say that because most modern trains bar the Class 800's are just ugly in my opinion. But then, ugly is the new pretty! .

However if and only if they were rebuilt to use on passenger trains. I think they would have to be reclassified as another type as they would be no longer classed as a Class 60. But could qualify as something like a Class 60/3 or maybe a Class 65. The reality of the Class 60's future is either refurbish then export, preservation or scrap. Only then, the super-tugs are the ones that would most likely become viable to export. But the really bad ones with a lot of them being open-stored for 10 years and counting. The only place for most of them is the graveyard like Booths, its inevitable due to the length of time in open storage in the brutal elements over the years .

 

[randyrippley]

rebuilding a 60 into a passenger loco would be as technically challenging, and as useful and sensible, as rebuilding a Chieftan tank into a bus

 

[CosherB]

Being a fan of the Class 60 myself. They are my favourite diesel locomotives and whilst it would be nice to see them work as a potential passenger locomoitves. In all honesty. An operator would need to have deep pockets to make it even remotely viable. For instance. I don't think the Mirrlees PU would be suitable or even capable of handling the load that the HEP/ETH generator would require (is it 480 volts 3 phase AC for carriages?) plus the load of the traction motors required.

Another factor is the weight of these beasts. As they weigh in at around 126 tons per locomotive as other locomotives are much lighter than this that work on passenger trains . The weight alone would restrict the Class 60 or even prohibit them from working certain routes and lines around the UK .

Then the locomotives would need completely new bogies with new traction equipment built for higher speeds as the ones that were designed in 1987/8 were not designed for passenger train use. Also I think the Class 60's would have to have their cab interiors completely rebuilt with new controls and an interface for the extra features like HEP. Push-Pull etc. The costs involved would be nearly as much as buying some ugly modern plastic off the shelf and I say that because most modern trains bar the Class 800's are just ugly in my opinion. But then, ugly is the new pretty! .

However if and only if they were rebuilt to use on passenger trains. I think they would have to be reclassified as another type as they would be no longer classed as a Class 60. But could qualify as something like a Class 60/3 or maybe a Class 65. The reality of the Class 60's future is either refurbish then export, preservation or scrap. Only then, the super-tugs are the ones that would most likely become viable to export. But the really bad ones with a lot of them being open-stored for 10 years and counting. The only place for most of them is the graveyard like Booths, its inevitable due to the length of time in open storage in the brutal elements over the years .

Welcome back! How are you getting on with your Class 60 purchase? Have you had much joy with DBC?

Perhaps you and GrimShady could club together, buy one, convert it with ETS and get it onto the market as "proof of concept".

Good luck!

 

[BR60062]

rebuilding a 60 into a passenger loco would be as technically challenging, and as useful and sensible, as rebuilding a Chieftan tank into a bus

You are right there. The Class 60 is a dead duck for future use and the sooner some people including myself accept that. Things will work out and run smoother with less fighting/flaming on the forum. A few Class 60's in preservation for the sake of history will suffice .

Welcome back! How are you getting on with your Class 60 purchase? Have you had much joy with DBC?

Perhaps you and GrimShady could club together, buy one, convert it with ETS and get it onto the market as "proof of concept".

Good luck!

We all have our dreams mate . Regarding the Class 60. Its still too early yet as getting £50k together in less than a couple of months is not an easy task. I would be happy to accept any assistance for preserving a Class 60 in terms of getting funding as I would be saving a piece of British history. But I am happy to preserve a Dennis Trident Alexander ALX400 bus instead as that would be more manageable. I've been slapped with the reality stick and I have woken up! .

I will take the ETS remark as a bit of harmless banter but if I was to reply to that comment. I think ETS/HEP would kill the Mirrlees unit because of the required current draw and something more powerful would be needed to feed HEP/ETS and the traction motors. Also the cab controls and stuff would need to be reconfigured if not rebuilt entirely. However the Class 60 does has a nice design to it and its looks was ahead of its time. Unlike the ugly kack that is coming out nowadays (Class 70 anyone?) that even a kid could design a better looking locomotive .

 

[GrimShady]

What I find amusing is that now I'm a 60 fan acording to some...LOL

 

[CosherB]

What I find amusing is that now I'm a 60 fan acording to some...LOL

I thought you were?

 

[D365]

The thing is, you are still asking questions about how a Class 60 could be converted, despite having been told it's not been considered at all due to the economic reality of any said conversion. So the obvious presumption would be that you are a fan, because what other reason is there for you to have any interest in them?

 

[GrimShady]

The thing is, you are still asking questions about how a Class 60 could be converted, despite having been told it's not been considered at all due to the economic reality of any said conversion. So the obvious presumption would be that you are a fan, because what other reason is there for you to have any interest in them?

Yes I am fully aware its not being considered and is not financially feasible, yes I have heard that many times, This is all fine and well. It does not mean however that it is beyond the realm of technical possibility which is what I'm really interested in. I was interested in responses from people who know the technical aspects of the loco and what in their view would be needed to accomplish such a task regardless of finances. I do not know anything about the locos construction so I wouldn't make a very good fan. In all honesty I don't think I've ever even seen one in RL!

My only interest is that they aren't that old in comparison to some loco/stock types still operating on the network that have been subject to refurbs/conversions/upgrades. There are lots sitting round idle doing nothing with no future it seems.

I am not in anyway a Class 60 fan gents

 

[richieb1971]

I think its just the public exposure of rotting metal at Toton that brings out the sensitive in us (those who consider a full body shell of a loco rusting away year after year).

Then of course in these forums you have the reality types who get their violins out and talk about economics all the time.

Unfortunately the internet is full of dreamers and full of people that don't care for anything unless it has a £££££££ value.

Then you have the British legion. Who feel those 60's are the last efforts of a bygone generation to build locos to compete with the rest of the world. Who see a foreign company come along, take all the class 60 assets and park them in a swamp of grass and replace them with Canadian and USA built 66's. I am not sure if EWS was foreign owned, but based on their attitude of British locos I'd say they were not deserved of calling themselves EWS.

In fact none of the last generation of British built locos have done well. The 56 did well. But after that you have miserable reading material.

57's - If they were any good they would be doing more than they do. Most run light engine from what i've seen. I've only seen 2 trains that had any large tonnage behind them.

58's - Sold abroad, not a single loco was saved in any shape or form until recent years where somebody noticed. Apparently was an export flop.

60's - Well documented.

67's - Another loco like the 60 built to do a job which didn't exist by the time they were running. Doing adhoc jobs most of the time.
92's - Most parked up, used abroad.

So in the last 30 years our locomotive buildings standards, based on the work they were designed for is absolutely appalling.


But after saying all that. The dreamers would rather see all of those locos on our rails rather than what is there now. And the economists must be really proud that people like that exist. Even though their brain tells them that enthusiasts and patriots of British locomotives are technically silly people.

 

[ExRes]

67's - Another loco like the 60 built to do a job which didn't exist by the time they were running. Doing adhoc jobs most of the time.

I rather feel the need to point out that in no way whatsoever was the 67 British built

 

[TimboM]

60's - Well documented.

67's - Another loco like the 60 built to do a job which didn't exist by the time they were running. Doing adhoc jobs most of the time.
92's - Most parked up, used abroad.

So in the last 30 years our locomotive buildings standards, based on the work they were designed for is absolutely appalling.

As ExRes says, the 67s are Spanish-built with North American EMD engines - hardly British...

I'd argue that "based on the work they were designed for" the 60s and 92s were more than adequate - far from "absolutely appalling". The issue was more the work they were designed for either disappeared (heavy industry freight such as coal and steel in the case of the 60s) or didn't materialise as intended (cross-channel freight and sleepers [Nightstar] for the 92s).

 

[richieb1971]

Barring a class 66 being expelled from running a service, I still feel that they would be chosen over a British purpose build loco most of the time.

Seems to be a lot of locos built for work that did not exist. Certainly was a lot of work for the 66's when they were built.

Thanks for the 67 knowledge.

 

[TimboM]

Barring a class 66 being expelled from running a service, I still feel that they would be chosen over a British purpose build loco most of the time.

Seems to be a lot of locos built for work that did not exist. Certainly was a lot of work for the 66's when they were built.

Thanks for the 67 knowledge.

In the case of the 60s, building 100 of them was perhaps over-egged, but at the time they were conceived there was a requirement for them. Problem is they have (or more accurately had!) a designed life of 40 years. It's unreasonable to expect anyone in the late 1980s designing these could predict the direction of UK heavy industry and/or the rail freight market over that sort of timespan. They were pretty well used for c.15 years, but now we have the situation where there's theoretically 10-15 years left in them, but little use for the type of loco they are. Perhaps with hindsight BR could have made them more versatile (e.g. 75-80 mph capable) - but hindsight's a wonderful thing and they weren't and they never will be.

The 92s are a little different in that the whole Channel Tunnel thing was completely new territory - it is in many ways still unique. Along with the billions spent on the tunnel itself, there was the need to build brand new locos and second-guess what demand there would be once it was open for both passenger and freight services - with no real precedent to go on. On top of that, anything using the tunnel has to meet a multitude of safety and redundancy requirements which led to the complexity of the 92s systems which have frequently been their downfall in "normal use". Very little of what they were built for (and would have probably dealt with very well) ever came to fruition. Again we now know this with the benefit of hindsight.

The 66s (and EMD in making them) were able to fill a requirement in the market for faster, cheaper freight locos which didn't need to haul quite so heavy loads and produce them quickly.

I can't speak for others, but my issue with the 66s isn't that they're not "British" - I don't mind where a loco comes from if it's a good/interesting one. It's that there are so many of them it's made the freight scene extremely dull for the last couple of decades. 90%+ of freight trains are hauled by them I would imagine.

I would expect that drives a lot of the 'nostalgia' and threads such as these around 60s, 92s etc. and the excitement generated when the likes of Colas and GBRf put some of these 'wasted assets' to good use once again.

 

[CosherB]

I think its just the public exposure of rotting metal at Toton that brings out the sensitive in us (those who consider a full body shell of a loco rusting away year after year).

Then of course in these forums you have the reality types who get their violins out and talk about economics all the time. Like me!

Unfortunately the internet is full of dreamers and full of people that don't care for anything unless it has a £££££££ value.

Then you have the British legion. Who feel those 60's are the last efforts of a bygone generation to build locos to compete with the rest of the world. Who see a foreign company come along, take all the class 60 assets and park them in a swamp of grass I've never heard of Toton described like this before! and replace them with Canadian and USA built 66's. I am not sure if EWS was foreign owned, yes it was, a quick internet search would tell you all about Wisconsin Central et al but based on their attitude of British locos I'd say they were not deserved of calling themselves EWS.

In fact none of the last generation of British built locos have done well. The 56 did well. But after that you have miserable reading material.

57's - If they were any good they would be doing more than they do. Most run light engine from what i've seen. I've only seen 2 trains that had any large tonnage behind them.

58's - Sold abroad, no they weren't, they're still owned by DBC not a single loco was saved in any shape or form until recent years where somebody noticed. Apparently was an export flop.

60's - Well documented.

67's - Another loco like the 60 built to do a job which didn't exist by the time they were running. Doing adhoc jobs most of the time.
92's - Most parked up, used abroad.

So in the last 30 years our locomotive buildings standards, based on the work they were designed for is absolutely appalling.


But after saying all that. The dreamers would rather see all of those locos on our rails rather than what is there now. And the economists must be really proud that people like that exist. Even though their brain tells them that enthusiasts and patriots of British locomotives are technically silly people.

Wow, you really do need to catch up on your homework! I've highlighted a couple of obvious clangers.

The world revolves around economics. Where the railway industry is concerned, if it doesn't pay (even if it needs a public subsidy), it has no chance, whether it's a major TOC or a heritage railway. Fantasy scenarios don't work on their own, no matter how nostalgic!

 

[CosherB]

I can't speak for others, but my issue with the 66s isn't that they're not "British" - I don't mind where a loco comes from if it's a good/interesting one. It's that there are so many of them it's made the freight scene extremely dull for the last couple of decades. 90%+ of freight trains are hauled by them I would imagine.

One day people will be harking after a Class 66 on a heritage railway. Many decades in the future, I grant you.

You may laugh, but we said the same things about Class 47s when there was over 500 of them.....!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I66''s were built to standardise the fleet and replace the ageing 20's 31's 37's 47's 56's and 58's that had poor reliability and parts availability. That they did a very good job of....

 

[TimboM]

One day people will be harking after a Class 66 on a heritage railway. Many decades in the future, I grant you.

You may laugh, but we said the same things about Class 47s when there was over 500 of them.....!

I don't disagree in the slightest. Let's not forget one (66779 Evening Star) has already been future-donated (if that's a phrase) to the NRM. I don't think any 58s, 60s, 67s and/or 92s are in (or are on a promise to be in) the National Collection (yet)?!

There's also already a fair bit of excitement already around 59s, which are effectively the 66s older brother.

 

[TimboM]

I66''s were built to standardise the fleet and replace the ageing 20's 31's 37's 47's 56's and 58's that had poor reliability and parts availability. That they did a very good job of....

I believe that was the idea of the 60s too (at least to an extent) but they evidently didn't hit the mark in the same way the 66s did/have.

 

[CosherB]

I believe that was the idea of the 60s too (at least to an extent) but they evidently didn't hit the mark in the same way the 66s did/have.

Which is why the BRB should have picked the EMD / GEC offering as the new 60, instead of letting politics get in the way. What a missed opportunity, particularly as we had experienced the transformational 59s.

Hindsight .....

 

[Ash Bridge]

Which is why the BRB should have picked the EMD / GEC offering as the new 60, instead of letting politics get in the way. What a missed opportunity, particularly as we had experienced the transformational 59s.

Hindsight .....

But then again if BR had chosen the 59 as their heavy hauler over the 60 and built 100 of them, wouldn't 75% of those also have ended up redundant at Toton for the same reasons that the 60s are there?

 

[GrimShady]

But then again if BR had chosen the 59 as their heavy hauler over the 60 and built 100 of them, wouldn't 75% of those also have ended up redundant at Toton for the same reasons that the 60s are there?

The 59 would have been the better choice.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think any 58s, 60s, 67s and/or 92s are in (or are on a promise to be in) the National Collection (yet)?!

Both 58050 and 60100 have been earmarked places in the National Collection for several years at this point.

 

[TimboM]

Both 58050 and 60100 have been earmarked places in the National Collection for several years at this point.

I stand corrected

Ironically 60100 is one of the few still operational. Otherwise could have become a museum piece already

 

[CosherB]

But then again if BR had chosen the 59 as their heavy hauler over the 60 and built 100 of them, wouldn't 75% of those also have ended up redundant at Toton for the same reasons that the 60s are there?

I very much doubt it. EWS would have still bought more US locos to displace the remaining 'heritage' BR stock. Whether that would have been more 59s or what became the 66 we'll never know.

 

[BR60062]

I would think so too regarding 60100 as it was the very last Class 60 built and the very final British built diesel locomotive that left the production line. A piece of British history that will/should be on display at the NRM once it has been retired from service. As I seriously doubt that Britain will ever build its own locomotives again as other locomotive builders can do it cheaper and better . The rest of them will be cut up and scrapped. As to be honest, its for the best as they are well beyond reuse by now I would imagine. So the sooner they are scrapped and cut up - the better as Toton will be less of a depressing sight I would assume .

 

[TimboM]

I would think so too regarding 60100 as it was the very last Class 60 built and the very final British built diesel locomotive that left the production line. A piece of British history that will/should be on display at the NRM once it has been retired from service. As I seriously doubt that Britain will ever build its own locomotives again as other locomotive builders can do it cheaper and better . The rest of them will be cut up and scrapped. As to be honest, its for the best as they are well beyond reuse by now I would imagine. So the sooner they are scrapped and cut up - the better as Toton will be less of a depressing sight I would assume .

It would be nice to think that when DB have finished using 60100 operationally and its time for it to be retired to the National Collection, they could hand it over before it is sat for months/years getting into a state of disrepair at Toton (or wherever). Is that too much to ask for...?

 

[richieb1971]

It would be nice to think that when DB have finished using 60100 operationally and its time for it to be retired to the National Collection, they could hand it over before it is sat for months/years getting into a state of disrepair at Toton (or wherever). Is that too much to ask for...?

This.


If Toton is on HS2, will that go through where the 60's are currently parked? if so, at least we know DBS will move them by the time HS2 is completed

 

[Ash Bridge]

This.


If Toton is on HS2, will that go through where the 60's are currently parked? if so, at least we know DBS will move them by the time HS2 is completed

Maybe a few of the better ones could get reactivated for HS2 construction trains?

 

[TimboM]

Maybe a few of the better ones could get reactivated for HS2 construction trains?

That would make a degree of sense - if indeed there are some 'better ones' that can feasibly be put back into service by then - and whoever wins the contract(s) doesn't just use 66s instead... Certainly a more likely scenario if they're ever going to see use again than conversion to a passenger loco.

The rest that need scrapping could be recycled and the metal used in building HS2, or is that too romantic a notion...!?

 

[Ash Bridge]

That would make a degree of sense - if indeed there are some 'better ones' that can feasibly be put back into service by then - and whoever wins the contract(s) doesn't just use 66s instead... Certainly a more likely scenario if they're ever going to see use again than conversion to a passenger loco.

The rest that need scrapping could be recycled and the metal used in building HS2, or is that too romantic a notion...!?

Well you never know!