How long to wait at a ticket machine

[Failed Unit]

It's not necessarily a case of being prosecuted for fare evasion, it may be the difference between an Off-Peak ticket and the Anytime fare.

How many people who deliberately board without paying for a ticket offer to pay the guard when he comes round?

A lot, but we are back to the "the machine didn't accept my card" - however to be fair when this has happened to me most gaurd either knew about it or accepted my word for it.

The one that has always made me more nervous is when the station staff are on "cleaning duties" and need to close the ticket office, but again I have never bieng challenged on board for not having a ticket for this reason.

I know the railway has a guilty until proven innocent image, but even in penalty fare areas the "someone has put chewing gum in the coin slot" was unchallenged by a RPI. I bet that is something the RPIs have heard many times (unless of course this was already reported)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The concern of the railway is to make reasonable provision for passengers to purchase tickets using commonly accepted means of payment.

Is a debit card a commonly accepted method of payment?

Is cash a commonly accepted method of payment?

Is providing a machine to buy tickets from reasonable provision for passenger to purchase a ticket?

If a person has enough cash to pay for the ticket and travels on the services of a TOC that wants you to buy before you board, is it reasonable or acceptable for the person to walk past a cash accepting ticket machine and board a train without a ticket and not be penalised for it?

 

[michael769]

Is a debit card a commonly accepted method of payment?

Is cash a commonly accepted method of payment?

Yes both are

Is providing a machine to buy tickets from reasonable provision for passenger to purchase a ticket?

If it allows them to buy all available tickets and accepts all commonly acceptable means of payment.

If a person has enough cash to pay for the ticket and travels on the services of a TOC that wants you to buy before you board, is it reasonable or acceptable for the person to walk past a cash accepting ticket machine and board a train without a ticket and not be penalised for it?

If they have chosen to pay by some other commonly acceptable means of payment (especially one that the ToC accepts in other outlets) then yes it is. A passenger should be able to purchase any valid ticket they wish using any appropriate means of payment.

As a taxpayer who contributes to the generous subsidies that the rail industry receives I expect them to provide a minimum acceptable level of customer service- which includes making adequate provision for passengers to purchase the tickets they want using any reasonable means of payment they wish.

If a ToC chooses to do that by providing a booking office or a machine that adequately meets passengers needs that's fine by me, as is providing for their purchase on train if they choose to go that way. But providing a half baked solution that only works in some cases and then making out it is the passengers fault is not what I subsidise the railways to do! Nor do I subsidise the railways so that they can hide behind the NCoC or their many exemptions from consumer protection law, as a way of maximising shareholder profits and executive bonuses by avoiding providing a minimum adequate standard of customer services.

 

[4SRKT]

I have an opinion, sometimes it agrees with the TOC's stance, sometimes agree with the passenger's view, other times I may or may not agree with both sides of the argument. That doesn't make me a 'friend of the TOC', but if it makes you feel better dishing out childish names then carry on.:roll:

Yet your petrol station analogy was nonsense, non?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'd love to see you subsidise the railway, but actually you don't, the government subsidies it with money they get from the tax you pay (there is a difference).

What you decide is acceptable is not relevant, what is expected of you as a passenger is.

I think credit cards are an acceptable commonly accepted method of payment, so can I board a bus without paying, on the basis that they don't provide me with a means to pay by a commonly accepted method of payment? It's only right that the passenger can choose the commonly available method of payment right? I think they'd tell me to **** off!

 

[Wolfie]

Mock Daily Mail Headline
Silver Plated Public Sector Whitehall Warrior Abuses Position to Blackmail TOC's
Is it now DfT policy to employing a Krays protection racket or what when awarding franchises.
Why is it a railway problem as to how private company renumerates its employee travel claims.

Hum interesting and even a little funny though completely inaccurate!

I do not (thankfully!) and never have worked for DfT! What DfT can do (in England!) is make it very clear what is an acceptable level of service provision (eg ticket offices, including openning hours, and TVMs, including payment methods) and can explain what will happen if such a level of service is not provided. One of the things that could be included in future franchise tenders is complaince with past service commitments - no blackmail at all but common sense - if a company has a proven track record of service failure why should its assurances as to future behaviour be given any credence?

This is a far broader problem than how a company settles it's expenses claims (my employer - unfortunately - buys all train tickets through the Trainline) though it doubtless suits the TOC apologists to focus on that case. Why should a TOC, due to its inadequate equipment, expect me to arrive at a destination penniless, having cleaned me out of all my ready money (which, given I live in pretty Central London, I never carry that much of - in line with police advice!)? Believe me the first pensioner who gets mugged because they are worried that they may not be able to pay a train fare by card and a train guard will insist on payment with cash and are therefore carrying maybe £150-200 will get the TOCs headlines, followed very rapidly by political attention, that they could live without.....

I repeat the railways are a service industry, it's about time its employees, up and to including TOC MDs, either realised that or found alternative employment. The alternative is, of course, that the TOCs can do what they want and ignore public demands as expressed by our elected representatives (sad but true!) but without the bounteous public subsidies they presently enjoy - he who pays the piper.....

 

[Fare-Cop]

This subject does come up a lot and whilst I think all sensible rail staff understand that there can sometimes be real difficulties, the Charter AIMS of any TOC do not over-rule the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, nor perhaps more importantly do they negate the National Railways Byelaws (2005)

The Charter is exactly that, a set of aims. It isn't enforceable legislation. (I'm not an apologist for TOC's either, there are many things that they could do better, but there are real responsibilities on both sides of this debate.)

This very argument was used in defence in a Byelaw 18.1 case in Court last week when the defendant said 'I am very busy, I had an important meeting to get to and couldn't wait around to get a ticket'. He also said 'It's up to the guard to come and ask me, I can't go running around looking for him, I needed to get some work done'

The District Judge, in fining the traveller said, if he (the Judge) was expected to queue to buy a ticket, then so was the defendant. He also reminded him that it was his responsibility to get to the station in time to get a ticket and to go and pay the fare due.

 

[Failed Unit]

This subject does come up a lot and whilst I think all sensible rail staff understand that there can sometimes be difficulties, the Charter AIMS of any TOC do not over-rule the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, nor perhaps more importantly do they negate the National Railways Byelaws (2005)

The Charter is exactly that, a set of aims. It isn't enforceable legislation.

This very argument was used in defence in a Byelaw 18.1 case in Court last week when the defendant said 'I am very busy, I had an important meeting to get to and couldn't wait around to get a ticket'. He also said 'It's up to the guard to come and ask me, I can't go running around looking for him, I needed to get some work done'

The District Judge, in fining the traveller said, if he (the Judge) was expected to queue to buy a ticket, then so was the defendant. He also reminded him that it was his responsibility to get to the station in time to get a ticket and to go and pay the fare due.

Surely if his time was that valuable the penalty fare for not having a ticket would be cheap in comparison! ie if he is on £50 per hour then what is another £20

 

[SS4]

Is a debit card a commonly accepted method of payment?

Is cash a commonly accepted method of payment?

Both are

Is providing a machine to buy tickets from reasonable provision for passenger to purchase a ticket?

Depends.

If a person has enough cash to pay for the ticket and travels on the services of a TOC that wants you to buy before you board, is it reasonable or acceptable for the person to walk past a cash accepting ticket machine and board a train without a ticket and not be penalised for it?

Is it acceptable for a TOC to deny certain methods of payment? If so it's anachronistic. If not then a customer should be able to pay using their preferred method.
Then of course how would it be established that said customer had enough cash? I'm fairly sure a guard or RPI does not have the right to look through my wallet.

 

[michael769]

I'd love to see you subsidise the railway, but actually you don't, the government subsidies it with money they get from the tax you pay (there is a difference).

Fair point but the government is accountable to the electorate, and anyone who receives a subsidy from the government is also accountable to the electorate via the government.

What you decide is acceptable is not relevant, what is expected of you as a passenger is.

Only if those expectations are lawful, proportionate and reasonable. I do not consider refusing to accept a means of payment that they claim to accept as reasonable, and I do not accept that a contractual term that purports to allow them to do so is either proportionate or lawful.

I would love to see this tested in court - but the chances of a ToC or ATOC willing to risk opening the door to certain clauses in the NCoC being ruled unlawful and/or unenforceable is somewhat unlikely.

I think credit cards are an acceptable commonly accepted method of payment, so can I board a bus without paying, on the basis that they don't provide me with a means to pay by a commonly accepted method of payment?

Bus companies make it clear that cards cannot be used on their services. ToCs claim to accept cards - as such they should stand by that claim and accept them on all services from all stations!

 

[Fare-Cop]

Surely if his time was that valuable the penalty fare for not having a ticket would be cheap in comparison! ie if he is on £50 per hour then what is another £20

Yes, I agree, but District Judges & Magistrates do not impose £20.00 penalty fares

He was fined £225.00 and has to pay the costs of prosecution (over £100), the courts' victim surcharge (£15) and compensation of the fare owing. A mere £3.50.

Penalty Fares do not apply on all lines and are never a compulsory option where they do apply. If the rail staff believe the fare was at risk of being avoided, they can report for prosecution.

They do not have to issue a Penalty Fare Notice

 

[Failed Unit]

District Judges & Magistrates Courts do not impose £20.00 penalty fares

He was fined £225.00 and has to pay the costs of prosecution (over £100), the courts' victim surcharge (£15) and compensation of the fare owing. A mere £3.50.

Penalty Fares do not apply on all lines and are never a compulsory option where the do apply. If the rail staff believe the fare was at risk of being avoided, they can report for prosecution. They do not have to issue a Penalty Notice.

True - It does remind me of when I lived in Newcastle people worked out it was cheaper to pay the penalty fare when they got caught rather than ever buy a ticket. I guess court is the only way to deter people like that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Fair point but the government is accountable to the electorate, and anyone who receives a subsidy from the government is also accountable to the electorate via the government....

Yes well, even if your voice was heard out of the millions of voices out there, it would only be the same as my voice out of the millions out there, or the voice of the MD of a TOC out of the millions out there.

....Only if those expectations are lawful, proportionate and reasonable. I do not consider refusing to accept a means of payment that they claim to accept as reasonable, and I do not accept that a contractual term that purports to allow them to do so is either proportionate or lawful....

Well, to quote northern's passengers charter, "Tickets for travel must be bought before your journey commences. This is a legal requirement." And I don't think refusing to do so on the basis that you don't want to use a particular method of payment will cut it.

....I would love to see this tested in court - but the chances of a ToC or ATOC willing to risk opening the door to certain clauses in the NCoC being ruled unlawful and/or unenforceable is somewhat unlikely....

To be honest, I couldn't see the TOC losing if it did, not in a case of someone refusing to buy before boarding.

....Bus companies make it clear that cards cannot be used on their services. ToCs claim to accept cards - as such they should stand by that claim and accept them on all services from all stations!

They do accept cards, just not at every location.

How is a bus company saying a bus can't accept cards different from a TOC saying that a machine can't accept a card? A card is a commonly accepted method of payment after all.

 

[pemma]

How is a bus company saying a bus can't accept cards different from a TOC saying that a machine can't accept a card? A card is a commonly accepted method of payment after all.

When was the last time you heard a bus driver say to a passenger "That'll be £65 please"?

Companies like Arriva offer their more expensive weekly and monthly bus tickets at Paypoints (shops and petrol stations) where you can pay by card.

Anyway with Northern it seems the argument is only accepting cards at TVMs opposed to only accepting cash.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When was the last time you heard a bus driver say to a passenger "That'll be £65 please"?....

And I suppose the railway don't take card payments for £2 fares do they:roll:

....Anyway with Northern it seems the argument is only accepting cards at TVMs opposed to only accepting cash.

The theory works both ways.

 

[pemma]

And I suppose the railway don't take card payments for £2 fares do they:roll:

Sometimes ticket offices actually prefer card payment for amounts like £4.20 over a £5 note because they are running low on change. From my local Northern station £2 fares don't exist unless you're a child.

The theory works both ways.

How? A debit card produces cash at a cash machine (something that's at or near most bus stations), cash can't be turned in to a debit card that accepts offline transactions, therefore in theory cash is easier to obtain than a debit card.

 

[exile]

And I suppose the railway don't take card payments for £2 fares do they:roll:
.

OK - I join the train in the early morning at a local station in Manchester aiming to travel to London. Assume London is a fare offered by the TVM and the cost is £160 (Anytime single). Is it reasonable for me to carry that much in cash? If the machine is operational but not accepting cards what am I to do? Get a cash fare to the next station and buy an excess to London ticket off the conductor?

 

[4SRKT]

The whole idea that something as potentially expensive as a rail fare cannot be purchased with a card in all circumstances is absurd. Even more absurd is the idea that TOCs may regard failure to comply as some sort of offence. Still, the lack of concern for custonmer convenience as evidenced by the attitudes of the usual suspects in this thread shows that this should be no surprise. The only comparable lack of customer service I Have experienced is the parking meters at the Leeds General Infirmary where a day's parking costs £16 (!) and the ancient machines only take coins! AND the hospital shops won't give change without making a purchase.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sometimes ticket offices actually prefer card payment for amounts like £4.20 over a £5 note because they are running low on change. From my local Northern station £2 fares don't exist unless you're a child....

There are plenty of adult fares around £2-3 from my local station. Sometimes cards are preferable, sometimes not, but that isn't really the point being made is it?

....How? A debit card produces cash at a cash machine (something that's at or near most bus stations), cash can't be turned in to a debit card that accepts offline transactions, therefore in theory cash is easier to obtain than a debit card.

The point that was being raised was that someone with a card and enough cash for the ticket, could walk past a cash only ticket machine because they want to pay by card and save the cash for a taxi or bus at the other end of the journey, so if there was a card only ticket machine and they wanted to pay cash, the same theory applies.

OK - I join the train in the early morning at a local station in Manchester aiming to travel to London. Assume London is a fare offered by the TVM and the cost is £160 (Anytime single). Is it reasonable for me to carry that much in cash? If the machine is operational but not accepting cards what am I to do? Get a cash fare to the next station and buy an excess to London ticket off the conductor?

It's not the same situation as what was being discussed, but in that situation I would see that as a reasonable compromise in the circumstance, perhaps getting the local fare to Manchester and changing it when the guard comes round or at the ticket office in Manchester. It is atleast buying a ticket before boarding a train, which is more than some seem to think is reasonable.

 

[4SRKT]

There are plenty of adult fares around £2-3 from my local station. Sometimes cards are preferable, sometimes not, but that isn't really the point being made is it?



The point that was being raised was that someone with a card and enough cash for the ticket, could walk past a cash only ticket machine because they want to pay by card and save the cash for a taxi or bus at the other end of the journey, so if there was a card only ticket machine and they wanted to pay cash, the same theory applies.



It's not the same situation as what was being discussed, but in that situation I would see that as a reasonable compromise in the circumstance, perhaps getting the local fare to Manchester and changing it when the guard comes round or at the ticket office in Manchester. It is atleast buying a ticket before boarding a train, which is more than some seem to think is reasonable.

But it's not the correct ticket though. Why is it better to buy any old ticket than the one you need? At the very least it should not be viewed as fare evasion if someone, faced with not being able to buy what he wants, doesn't buy something he doesn't want.

 

[rmt-driver]

At Chiswick station it is quite busy on Sunday mornings with families etc travelling into town. There is only a poxy 1tph on Sundays (or was assume it hasn't changed). Most people arrive about 10-15 minutes before the train, only two machines only one is cash accepting. The queue of passengers rapidly grows and they often want tricky tickets, f&f railcard reduced, groupsave, oyster top ups (4 separate transactions for say a group of four). The queue never clears before the train arrives at these busiest times, and it's an hour wait for the next service. The system stinks!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But it's not the correct ticket though. Why is it better to buy any old ticket than the one you need? At the very least it should not be viewed as fare evasion if someone, faced with not being able to buy what he wants, doesn't buy something he doesn't want.

Why has Fare Evasion come up again?

Compare with NRCoC Condition 3. In those situations you should buy a ticket atleast part of the way, it seems like a reasonable compromise in that context.

Why don't all you doubters send an email to ATOC or your local TOC asking what you should do if you are at an unmanned station and have enough cash for a ticket from a cash only ticket machine, but you want to pay by card. See where that gets you. If they say it's fine to walk on by, who am I to argue.

 

[Failed Unit]

How many TOCs have cash only machines? (metro in Newcastle used to - may still have) I can't think of any but I can think of plenty of card only operators. Not saying the don't exist, just I haven't seen one. In fact at smaller stations I have not seen one that will take cash at all for many years because low lives keep stealing the cast.

 

[yorkie]

Why don't all you doubters send an email to ATOC or your local TOC asking what you should do if you are at an unmanned station and have enough cash for a ticket from a cash only ticket machine, but you want to pay by card. See where that gets you. If they say it's fine to walk on by, who am I to argue.

This is a good idea.

Several people I know have bought part-way tickets in accordance with NRCoC only to be told by staff at the other end, that the value of the tickets will not be taken into account (as per NRCoC) and instead a refund has to be applied for and "next time buy at your destination"! It would be very useful to get a list of which TOCs are following which policy. How a casual passenger is supposed to guess which policy is in force, I've no idea...

 

[4SRKT]

Why don't all you doubters send an email to ATOC or your local TOC asking what you should do if you are at an unmanned station and have enough cash for a ticket from a cash only ticket machine, but you want to pay by card.

Because I couldn't care less what the absurd rules are. I always pay my way and will find a way to do so. If I can't buy what I want, I won't buy something else, but will present myself to a guard or otherwise and explain the situation.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is a good idea.

Several people I know have bought part-way tickets in accordance with NRCoC only to be told by staff at the other end, that the value of the tickets will not be taken into account (as per NRCoC) and instead a refund has to be applied for and "next time buy at your destination"! It would be very useful to get a list of which TOCs are following which policy. How a casual passenger is supposed to guess which policy is in force, I've no idea...

I'm not just refering to part way tickets, at least one person has suggested in this thread that they believe someone with enough cash for the whole journey can walk past a cash only machine because they want to pay by card.

 

[island]

Because I couldn't care less what the absurd rules are. I always pay my way and will find a way to do so. If I can't buy what I want, I won't buy something else, but will present myself to a guard or otherwise and explain the situation.

And if you're getting on a DOO train?

 

[4SRKT]

And if you're getting on a DOO train?

This isn't a problem where I live, but in that situation for 'guard' read some other railway employee.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not just refering to part way tickets, at least one person has suggested in this thread that they believe someone with enough cash for the whole journey can walk past a cash only machine because they want to pay by card.

Then address that person and their comment rather than the whole thread, although as discussed upthread there may well be (and may well not be) a good reason for that. This 'one person is a cheat = everyone is a cheat' equation is quite tiresome.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Then address that person and their comment rather than the whole thread, although as discussed upthread there may well be (and may well not be) a good reason for that....

If I quoted everyone I was refering to it would have made for a very long post which few would have bothered reading properly. Then add in people responding, which includes you, to a post I make, in response to someone else, with a new angle or slight tangent on the subject which could be covered by the same, or similar, response.

....This 'one person is a cheat = everyone is a cheat' equation is quite tiresome.

If you think that is what I am saying you haven't been reading the thread properly (or you don't care to), it's not what I have said at all, but if you find reading the thread tiresome I can only offer one piece of advice to you, don't bother.

 

[4SRKT]

If I quoted everyone I was refering to it would have made for a very long post which few would have bothered reading properly. Then add in people responding, which includes you, to a post I make, in response to someone else, with a new angle or slight tangent on the subject which could be covered by the same, or similar, response.



If you think that is what I am saying you haven't been reading the thread properly (or you don't care to), it's not what I have said at all, but if you find reading the thread tiresome I can only offer one piece of advice to you, don't bother.

A very wise piece of advice. Nothing has been said here that hasn't been said at least 100 times before by the same posters. Good night.