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How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

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Cowley

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I sometimes wonder what would happen if one of the larger heritage lines actually went out of business?
We could well see this happen at some point, so maybe it’s worth considering?
Would a different consortium consider buying it from the receivers?
Would it be split up and the station sites sold for development, trackbed for farm land, or even village road bypasses perhaps?

We haven’t seen it happen yet, but it could happen, and how far would a local council go to financially assist if things got really bad on one of their important local tourist attractions?

What do others think?
 
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Bald Rick

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It is worth pointing out the economics of railways when some reasonably well used heritage lines are in trouble, with a cheap (largely wage-less) workforce and fares that would be considered astronomical on the national network...
 

Bishopstone

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I’ve often thought that some parts of the country, well served (over served?) by heritage lines, would benefit from some merger & acquisition activity.

Consolidate the best locos, stock, exhibits and volunteers onto the most scenic or iconic line. Sell the redundant line(s) for luxury executive housing (long, thin houses, I suppose), and use the proceeds to pay-off anyone who became tedious about it, or who looked like they might be a ‘Private Eye’ correspondent.

Result: fewer, but excellent lines, and trebles all round.
 

Killingworth

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For heritage railway you could could substitute a vast number of organisations that would not survive financially without an immense number of volunteers.

Attracting more young people, both as volunteers and regular customers, is vital to survive. The relative lack of volunteers in the 25-55 age span is probably common to most. Too many other things to do. One big heritage body, the National Trust, has major challenges recruiting and retaining volunteers in a very wide range of roles. Like the railways they rely very heavily on the young retired who's abilities gradually, imperceptibly, diminish as the years go by!
 

underbank

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It is worth pointing out the economics of railways when some reasonably well used heritage lines are in trouble, with a cheap (largely wage-less) workforce and fares that would be considered astronomical on the national network...

You can't compare heritage fares with the national network. Chalk and cheese. Tourist attraction entry fees are usually pretty steep, such as Blackpool Tower, theme parks, Tussauds, Dungeons, museums, etc. You can easily pay £50 per head for a night out that lasts just a few hours and would cost you a tenner if you stayed at home and catered for yourself, or more for tickets to a West End show that would cost you nothing if you watched it on TV at home instead. Many people pay £20 for 2 hours watching their local footie team. Heritage line visitors aren't buying travel, they're buying an experience.

The relative lack of volunteers in the 25-55 age span is probably common to most.

It's common to virtually all clubs and societies, charities, and voluntary organisations. People in that age group are busy working and coping with family life. I've been involved in amateur dramatics, special constabulary, model railway clubs, advanced motorists local societies, a theatre restoration charity, and the local society of my accountancy body - exactly the same in each - a handful of middle aged stalwarts, with much larger numbers of older/retired folk and younger ones such as students. It's the pretty standard demographic of any voluntary body. They need to accept that's how it is and gear themselves up to getting the most/best out of the younger/older people - they need to be careful about potentially wasting their time and efforts on attracting middle aged people as it's a much harder sell.
 

ainsworth74

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That is the downside of a long railway. Most people are purchasing a nice day out, not a public transport journey (though I have used the Spa Valley Railway for public transport purposes, to get home from climbing at Harrison's Rocks). Extending to Corwen won't increase what people will pay but will increase costs.

Plus the other issue that a long railway can face is it can get a bit boring trundling along at 25mph at best. I felt the Wensleydale Railway suffered from this. It is a long along drag from Leeming Bar to Redmire (and even further from Northallerton West!). Even with a timetable enforced break half-way through at Leyburn I was very glad to return to Leeming Bar after the run up the line!!

So potentially you increase costs and also, unless you've got really good scenery or somewhere really interesting half-way along, risk making the trip just a bit too long in terms of time taken.
 

Journeyman

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I’ve often thought that some parts of the country, well served (over served?) by heritage lines, would benefit from some merger & acquisition activity.

Consolidate the best locos, stock, exhibits and volunteers onto the most scenic or iconic line. Sell the redundant line(s) for luxury executive housing (long, thin houses, I suppose), and use the proceeds to pay-off anyone who became tedious about it, or who looked like they might be a ‘Private Eye’ correspondent.

Result: fewer, but excellent lines, and trebles all round.

I think this might eventually have to happen. One of the things that worries me is that the movement often spreads itself very thin - there's always some scheme brewing to re-open some weed-strewn freight-only line in the arse end of beyond, and the more people keep trying to do this, the fewer resources there are to keep established lines operating. Many of them are hopeless lost causes.
 

underbank

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how far would a local council go to financially assist if things got really bad on one of their important local tourist attractions?

Really depends on the attitude of each council. Some are very proactive and already give a massive amount of support to attractions in their area, either directly via grants or loans or waiving business rates, or indirectly by merely "supporting" grant applications from the likes of the Lottery heritage fund, EU grants, regional development agencies, coastal community funds, national heritage etc where they don't put up any money themselves.

There are plenty of closed down tourist attractions, and run down tourist areas where the council have just sat back and done little or nothing to help as they watch the attractions close down around them. Other councils have been very proactive in not just helping existing attractions to survive and prosper but to bring in new attractions too. It seems a bit of a lottery really.

It also depends on who is running the attraction as regards their personality, abilities, politics etc. There's a victorian theatre close to me that was "run" by a very dominant person - a kind of personal fiefdom. Did a miraculous job to save it from ruin and managed to get it open again small scale with a small team of volunteers, but reading between the lines, wouldn't really engage with the local authorities nor the likes of the lottery heritage fund - i.e. didn't want to follow their rules, tick their boxes, etc., so was usually knocked back for grants etc. Now it's run by a different management team (with a few "professionals" in the field of grants, etc) and they've already secured a large grant. I suspect the reasons are similar why some heritage railways seem to really struggle while others are regular recipients of grants - you have to play the game these days.
 
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Journeyman

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There are plenty of closed down tourist attractions, and run down tourist areas where the council have just sat back and done little or nothing to help as they watch the attractions close down around them. Other councils have been very proactive in not just helping existing attractions to survive and prosper but to bring in new attractions too. It seems a bit of a lottery really.

A lot of it depends on whether the councils have cash to spare, which of course a lot of them don't these days. A lot of councils have had to make very tough decisions.
 

yoyothehobo

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I always liked the ELR when growing up, you could get a train from Bury to Ramsbottom, get a different train coming back the other way. Variety, the scenery was good etc. The extension to Heywood is much less exciting (though the incline makes the engines work) and is easier to get to than Bury. At the end of the day though, if you end up doing the whole run from Heywood to Rawtenstall and back its quite a long trundle.

The NYMR is probably one of the luckiest in terms of location of the standard gauge railways as it has decent tourist spots along the route, opens up hiking, has Whitby at the fair end and Pickering is fairly easy to get to from York.

Too long a line and it gets boring and costs ramp up but interest doesnt always follow. Too short a line and it all feels over too quickly and not enough of an experience.
 

underbank

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A lot of it depends on whether the councils have cash to spare, which of course a lot of them don't these days. A lot of councils have had to make very tough decisions.

It's not always financial - they can offer support in other ways if they want to, such as supporting grant applications, working with other bodies etc. Lots of councils also have hefty reserves which they can't spend (protected), so will often grant loans (repayable with interest) or even buy land/buildings and rent them out, i.e. use the money to generate revenue rather than investing it in dodgy Icelandic banks or risk it on the stock market. They can also put pressure on other public service providers, such as "encouraging" local public transport to change their route or timetable to better serve attractions and amenities where they're providing subsidies for local services. Sometimes, it really isn't all about just throwing money at something.
 

TheBeard

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Won't claim to be an economist but there should be some professional, "football manager" type economics would help. The below are simply opinions
Having had a midlife change, having more time, the volunteer can be busy. Now busy again, note most volunteers are really ageing. And us guys will be indentured until 68, unless there is a revolution over this dictatorship.
Volunteers are the lifeblood, the workers, the managers the donors and the inspiration. Look after them and they will look after the railway. Allegedly problems here are what is causing certain railways issues. The cliff edge here is its a failing population due to age, and the concern is many smaller lines may see closure due to loss of their kindly donated workforce. And legacies will dry up.
Young people need to be encouraged in, but lets face it, they have less and less time. Perhaps those that can should be looking at Apprentices, perhaps with HLF funding?
Worse case is due to all the worsening government control, Health and Safety it becomes excessively onorous and difficult to be a volunteer, exams, degrees,courses. In which case a handful of tourist based lines with full time professional staff will survive only. No doubt facing the litigation culture people have been groomed to follow, hurling themselves off trippy steps and old coaches and non self closing doors, disputes etc&. Conflicts about locos seem to be resolved for 6 figures in courts rather than a few stiff words. Or you the people could demand a reversal of these values and a return to British values in life.
And railways come croppers with running passenger services for locals. Business cases need to be professional, not on the back of a fag packet by well meaning volunteers. Or the extend/buy locos/waste money that they cant afford on grandiose schemes.
 

Bald Rick

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You can't compare heritage fares with the national network. Chalk and cheese. Tourist attraction entry fees are usually pretty steep, such as Blackpool Tower, theme parks, Tussauds, Dungeons, museums, etc. You can easily pay £50 per head for a night out that lasts just a few hours and would cost you a tenner if you stayed at home and catered for yourself, or more for tickets to a West End show that would cost you nothing if you watched it on TV at home instead. Many people pay £20 for 2 hours watching their local footie team. Heritage line visitors aren't buying travel, they're buying an experience.

I agree with all that - but what I’m saying is that even with fares priced in that way, and with a largely volunteer workforce, and opening only when there is a good chance of high traffic, heritage railways still barely break even.
 

Cowley

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I agree with all that - but what I’m saying is that even with fares priced in that way, and with a largely volunteer workforce, and opening only when there is a good chance of high traffic, heritage railways still barely break even.
I suppose that they probably don’t break even Rick, but then they’re not trying to get away with basic Pacer/153 services with single platforms and bus shelter facilities etc.
They tend to try and push their particular railway as far as it’s possible to go on the minimum amount of money available...
 

Killingworth

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I suppose that they probably don’t break even Rick, but then they’re not trying to get away with basic Pacer/153 services with single platforms and bus shelter facilities etc.
They tend to try and push their particular railway as far as it’s possible to go on the minimum amount of money available...

Like English Heritage and the National Trust who have learned to catch children young and take them though the generations as parents to grandparents and keeping that going ad infinitum - with paid for parking, expensive cream teas and participative events to swell the coffers.
 

Bald Rick

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I suppose that they probably don’t break even Rick, but then they’re not trying to get away with basic Pacer/153 services with single platforms and bus shelter facilities etc.

The thing is, some of them are. I’m not a regular visitor of heritage railways, as they are not my thing at all, but two of my most recent trips:
1) stumping up a load of cash for four of us to be taken from a single platform station on a three coach steam train for about 3 miles at 25mph to a field in the middle of nowhere, waiting 20 minutes, and then pushed back again.
2) paying a few quid to travel in a brake van being shunted half a mile by an 08 shunter (it was my Dad’s birthday, and he enjoyed it).
 

Cowley

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The thing is, some of them are. I’m not a regular visitor of heritage railways, as they are not my thing at all, but two of my most recent trips:
1) stumping up a load of cash for four of us to be taken from a single platform station on a three coach steam train for about 3 miles at 25mph to a field in the middle of nowhere, waiting 20 minutes, and then pushed back again.
2) paying a few quid to travel in a brake van being shunted half a mile by an 08 shunter (it was my Dad’s birthday, and he enjoyed it).
:lol: Well yes. That can be the case at times.
I suppose I was thinking of the more established ‘Day out’ lines when I posted that,
You can certainly pay a premium for being pushed along weed ridden tracks by an 08 at 14mph in a mouldy mk2 at various locations around the country if you want.
 

Bald Rick

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:lol: Well yes. That can be the case at times.
I suppose I was thinking of the more established ‘Day out’ lines when I posted that,
You can certainly pay a premium for being pushed along weed ridden tracks by an 08 at 14mph in a mouldy mk2 at various locations around the country if you want.

I just don’t get it. Particularly, in the second example, where it seems we had invaded someone’s private plaything. The signaller in the ‘box was particularly grumpy, although that might have been something to do with getting my then 4 year old to tap the block bell six times to see if it stirred him from his sofa. o_O
 

Cowley

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I just don’t get it. Particularly, in the second example, where it seems we had invaded someone’s private plaything. The signaller in the ‘box was particularly grumpy, although that might have been something to do with getting my then 4 year old to tap the block bell six times to see if it stirred him from his sofa. o_O
These sort of arrangements will(/should?) probably be the ones to go first. Yet there seems to be no shortage of groups that want to take over their local stump of ex freight - one time bit of passenger carrying redundant railway line.

Down here a group wants to take over the Heathfield branch. Locally though there are so many heritage railways within forty miles of it that could all do with some extra volunteers.
Sure, they say that they’ll do things differently (let’s chuck ‘Community Railway’, ‘Sustainable Transport’ and various other grant awarding phrases in at various interviews).
I just can’t help imagining a rusty shunter and a couple of faded Virgin liveried aircons trundling through an avenue of trees and brambles for the first twenty years though (and many tourists will fall for it if there’s a decent quality leaflet in the local attractions stand).
The enthusiasts that are trying to get this going could easily go fifteen miles north, help improve the Dartmoor Railway and achieve far more to be honest (they’ve already got an 08 and some mk2s for a start)...

Personally I think we’ve got way more than enough railways now.
What exists needs to be properly looked after for the future, and that’s far more important than trying to rescue any bit of redundant line that becomes available.

All the best ones that were available for purchase have been purchased, and unless something amazing like the St Ives, or Looe branches in Cornwall come up for sale then it’s probably not worth bothering with any more.
 

bramling

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I agree with all that - but what I’m saying is that even with fares priced in that way, and with a largely volunteer workforce, and opening only when there is a good chance of high traffic, heritage railways still barely break even.

Many of the more well-known railways outwardly appear to be doing quite well - it’s not uncommon to find trains loaded to capacity, and cafes full to bursting point with long queues.

However, it’s noticeable that most of this “boom” seems to be driven by pensioners. One wonders what might happen if this business should slow down in the future - perhaps factors like the baby boom generation getting older and less mobile, people working longer, the next generation of pensioners less well off, or whatever. No idea if any of these things are likely, just things off the top of the head that could happen.

The other thing is that whilst some trips can be very busy, the pensioner day tends to run only from about 1000 to 1400. Trains in the late afternoon can be extremely quiet (best time for the enthusiast to travel and not be subjected to listening to pensioners gossiping about ailments!).

Presumably the best long-term business model is something which can pull in a varied cross-section, and doesn’t require massive numbers of staff. So minimal numbers of signal boxes, and a balance between steam and diesel, the former pulling in the crowds and the latter keeping costs down. Naturally some lines would struggle to cut down the number of signalling staff requires due to level crossings.

Lakeside & Haverthwaite and Dartmouth must be two which make good money. Ffestiniog seem to do okay, although one does wonder given the limited number of trips on many days and a quite hefty number of staff many of whom I assume are paid.
 

GusB

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However, it’s noticeable that most of this “boom” seems to be driven by pensioners. One wonders what might happen if this business should slow down in the future - perhaps factors like the baby boom generation getting older and less mobile, people working longer, the next generation of pensioners less well off, or whatever. No idea if any of these things are likely, just things off the top of the head that could happen.
I'd guess that it's not just that people are working longer, but that many people have more irregular working patterns too. While I've never personally been involved in volunteering for heritage railways, I was involved with a few musical organisations when I was in my late teens and early 20s. When I was at school it was easy enough to commit to being available every second Wednesday evening for rehearsals, and every second weekend for performances, but once I started working I simply didn't have the luxury of being able to plan in advance. When you do shift work it can be really hard to explain to people who work a steady nine-to-five that your life doesn't quite work the same way as theirs. I gave it all up in the end, partly because I was fed up with letting people down, and partly because when work was done, my time was Me time.
 

underbank

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I agree with all that - but what I’m saying is that even with fares priced in that way, and with a largely volunteer workforce, and opening only when there is a good chance of high traffic, heritage railways still barely break even.

They're not aiming to make a profit. The cash generated is often spent as soon as it comes in to repair/improve things on their "to do" list, so being busier and having higher income means they do more rather than build up cash in the bank, hence no "paper" profit.
 

433N

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I hate to use the 'B' word in this safe space, but I do wonder how many heritage railways have benefited financially from European Development Fund(s) - I always seem to see little blue flags with yellow stars on things when I visit.

Of course, only a cynic would think that this money might not be available soon.
 

yorksrob

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I think the heritage railways that do well will be the ones with good ale bars/pubs close at hand, either on train or at stations. The ELR seems well placed in this respect.
 

Killingworth

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We all have our favourites for a ride, Welsh Highland or maybe North York Moors.

Steam specials on the real railway can do well. However the numbers gathering to see the trains go by is usually a lot greater than those spending any money to travel or use the facilties at a preserved heritage line. Those that can tap into that do best. The two I mention seemed to me to be well on the way to doing that.
 

duffield

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I think the heritage railways that do well will be the ones with good ale bars/pubs close at hand, either on train or at stations. The ELR seems well placed in this respect.

Yes, a good 'Real Ale' type bar/pub has got to be an asset, particularly if it's at both ends of the line (and on the train as well) like the SVR. You'll get more in the way of return visits from Real Ale fans who maybe only have a passing interest in heritage railways.
Smaller lines might be able to improve their finances with at least a part-time micro-pub at their main location, maybe a joint venture with a local micro-brewery.
 

yorksrob

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Yes, a good 'Real Ale' type bar/pub has got to be an asset, particularly if it's at both ends of the line (and on the train as well) like the SVR. You'll get more in the way of return visits from Real Ale fans who maybe only have a passing interest in heritage railways.
Smaller lines might be able to improve their finances with at least a part-time micro-pub at their main location, maybe a joint venture with a local micro-brewery.

Indeed. A microbrewery at an old station building would be a good novelty (I know Sheffield Midland's got one, but I don't know of one off of the 'big' railway).
 

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The King & Castle at Kidderminster on the SVR attracts plenty of non railway visiting patrons, staying open long after the trains cease and on non operating days, good use of the real estate, Spooners on the Ffestiniog is similar.
 
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