How much to save a class 58

[Alistair G.]

After catching up with a few mates and another good few discussions about the railways, one thing that was mentioned was the class 58's

We all felt that they saw far too little life over here and should in theory have plenty of life left in them.

Whilst I know of the class 58 preservation group very rarely see updates on how this is coming along.

Add to the fact that there now seems quite a few 58's stored in France that apparently don't get a run much these days, how much do you think it would cost to obtain one of these locos?.

Surely DBS need to be making cut backs with their recent announcements about loss of jobs etc. so they must be at least interested in selling assets they don't utilise (hence the 60's to colas I guess??)

I know there would be plenty of maintenance fees and a list as long as the WCML for work that would be needed to be done, but just to start with, just getting a class 58 back over here, how much do you think DBS would take for one?

 

[Domh245]

Very simplistic method, with quite a few assumptions, but good for getting a rough idea methinks:

Price per kilo of steel: £0.06 - £0.14
Weight of a 58: 130 tonnes

So DBS would expect to get between £8000 and £18200 selling it for scrap. You would need to outbid the scrap value, and that is assuming that DBS are allowed to just sell them to the highest bidder. They may not be allowed to if there are nasties inside the loco such as asbestos.

tl;dr somewhere around the £20000 mark

 

[Donny Dave]

Just to add to that, you need to have somwhere to store your loco while it's being repaired and rebuilt. Storage fees I would expect to be several thousand pounds a week.

Then you have to collect the loco from where ever DBS have abandoned it and have it transported back to your storage location, which isn't cheap, especially if the loco is abroad somewhere.

Realistically, youwon't get much change from £100,000 once all your costs are taken into account, and that's before you even thing about trying to get it into running order again.

 

[Alistair G.]

Oh I'm sure there are many other factors that would easily take it to close to the £100k mark but this was a bare bones basic smash and grab raid time

If DBS ever needed to sell "surplus" parts then surely now is the time?. And if you want a bargain you go when the sales are on right?!.

As for storage, would a heritage line not be interested in such an agreement that they could have use out of it for their operations when it's not in use on other duties in return for warm storage?

I'm sadly not flushed with cash (I celebrated earlier when I found 20p in my jean pockets!!) but the point was surely that now is the time to get one?, yes there's plenty of things to fix and mend that will no doubt take years, but if you want your pick now, has there ever been a better time?

How about crowd funding (or whatever the youth are calling it) im sure there's a website you can set up appeals on for cash towards project.

Then of course there's forum members who may be generous (I'm sure there's some that maybe not as well, each to our own and all that!)

And after all.... It is lottery night, so here's hoping?!.

 

[talltim]

I suggest you read this thread, the OP has been there and done that. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/in...el-preservation-its-easyisnt-it/?fromsearch=1
Add in the extra cost of retrieving the loco from France.

To move 45149 from toddington to kidderminster the quote came in at 9k

 

[theblackwatch]

Oh I'm sure there are many other factors that would easily take it to close to the £100k mark but this was a bare bones basic smash and grab raid time

If DBS ever needed to sell "surplus" parts then surely now is the time?. And if you want a bargain you go when the sales are on right?!.

As for storage, would a heritage line not be interested in such an agreement that they could have use out of it for their operations when it's not in use on other duties in return for warm storage?

I'm sadly not flushed with cash (I celebrated earlier when I found 20p in my jean pockets!!) but the point was surely that now is the time to get one?, yes there's plenty of things to fix and mend that will no doubt take years, but if you want your pick now, has there ever been a better time?

How about crowd funding (or whatever the youth are calling it) im sure there's a website you can set up appeals on for cash towards project.

Then of course there's forum members who may be generous (I'm sure there's some that maybe not as well, each to our own and all that!)

And after all.... It is lottery night, so here's hoping?!.

Sorry, but if finding 20p is a celebration, then I suggest you stick to Hornby rather than living in cloud cuckoo land. Buying an engine is simple, once you've bought it, you will need to start spending real time and money on it.

A heritage railway may let you take it there, but you will pay rent if it's not a runner. Go there with your restoration plan, backed up with proof you can do it - engineering expertise etc.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[alexl92]

Sorry, but if finding 20p is a celebration, then I suggest you stick to Hornby rather than living in cloud cuckoo land.

You must be kidding, I love Hornby but oo gauge models are so expensive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Very simplistic method, with quite a few assumptions, but good for getting a rough idea methinks:

Price per kilo of steel: £0.06 - £0.14
Weight of a 58: 130 tonnes

So DBS would expect to get between £8000 and £18200 selling it for scrap. You would need to outbid the scrap value, and that is assuming that DBS are allowed to just sell them to the highest bidder. They may not be allowed to if there are nasties inside the loco such as asbestos.

tl;dr somewhere around the £20000 mark

Would asbestos still have been used in locomotives as recently as the mid-1980s?

 

[Domh245]

Blue and Brown Asbestos were forbidden from use from 1985 according to asbestos.com, so it is entirely possible that the earlier 58s had it, but I only used asbestos as an example of a hazardous material that requires careful specialist disposal, there are probably many others, but Asbestos was the first thing that came to mind.

 

[FQ]

I believe the 'french' 58's are stored in Rouen? Rouen to Kidderminster is 370 miles.

But there are some 58s stored at Toton and Crewe. But they are probably be in a much worse condition than the French ones.

 

[richieb1971]

Only on the railways can so many assets rot to death.

Governments should bring in a rule that if you don't use it, you lose it.

10 mins after they have all been cut up, an order for 100 more locos will be put in. Ridiculous.:roll:


And yeah, I've heard all the BS about DBS are allowed to let their assets rot etc. I'd be very interested to hear on what grounds they got those assets. I am sure British rail didn't give it to them so they could become scrap.

 

[CosherB]

And yeah, I've heard all the BS about DBS are allowed to let their assets rot etc. I'd be very interested to hear on what grounds they got those assets. I am sure British rail didn't give it to them so they could become scrap.

Simple economics in a competitve commercial market. Easy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Schenker_Rail_%28UK%29

 

[455driver]

Very simplistic method, with quite a few assumptions, but good for getting a rough idea methinks:

Price per kilo of steel: £0.06 - £0.14
Weight of a 58: 130 tonnes

So DBS would expect to get between £8000 and £18200 selling it for scrap. You would need to outbid the scrap value, and that is assuming that DBS are allowed to just sell them to the highest bidder. They may not be allowed to if there are nasties inside the loco such as asbestos.

tl;dr somewhere around the £20000 mark

There are a few tonnes of copper in there as well so don't forget to factor that in, your £18k scrap value has just become £35k, then there are the costs of spares, transportation, storage, access to work on it, having somewhere to run it (with the railways cooperation), on going maintenance costs and repairs.
How much does that lot add up to?

Any idiot can buy a loco, its getting the thing running and then sourcing enough money to keep the thing running and also saving up enough for when some important bit goes bang!

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[cj_1985]

Best thing that any 58 dreamers can do, is to support the c58pg... they have already put in a lot of money, time and effort... and are a far more realistic prospect for a running 58 in preservation in the near future

 

[6Gman]

Only on the railways can so many assets rot to death.

Governments should bring in a rule that if you don't use it, you lose it.

10 mins after they have all been cut up, an order for 100 more locos will be put in. Ridiculous.:roll:


And yeah, I've heard all the BS about DBS are allowed to let their assets rot etc. I'd be very interested to hear on what grounds they got those assets. I am sure British rail didn't give it to them so they could become scrap.

British Rail didn't "give" DBS anything.

 

[Domh245]

I'd be very interested to hear on what grounds they got those assets. I am sure British rail didn't give it to them so they could become scrap.

Quite simple really:

BR put their freight divisions (Loadhaul, Mainline, Transrail, RES etc) individually up for sale (highest bidder)
Business consortium involving Goldman Sachs, Wisconsin Central, and others puts in a bid for each of the BR freight divisions
Said consortium wins all the freight divisions and starts to run them
The consortium re-brands the divisions from their BR names to EWS in April '96
EWS orders 200 odd class 66s for the 'conventional freight' as well as some 67s for the parcels work with a view to supplementing locos and replacing oldest with expected upturn in freight haulage by rail
Expected upturn fails to materialise for most part
EWS starts to put redundant locos into store before flogging them off to highest bidder (which occasionally did mean scrapping yards)
EWS sold to Deutsche Bahn, who continued EWS' "good work"

*NB this is a simplistic look at things. It was more complicated in real life, I suggest you look at the DB Schenker (UK) page for more info

 

[NSEFAN]

Only on the railways can so many assets rot to death.

Governments should bring in a rule that if you don't use it, you lose it.

10 mins after they have all been cut up, an order for 100 more locos will be put in. Ridiculous.


And yeah, I've heard all the BS about DBS are allowed to let their assets rot etc. I'd be very interested to hear on what grounds they got those assets. I am sure British rail didn't give it to them so they could become scrap.

I think we've had this discussion before about class 60s. Just because a loco exists doesn't mean it is useful any more. If a modern design is going to be better suited to current traffic / cheaper to run / cheaper to maintain in the long term, then it makes sense to store/scrap the older locos and purchase/lease new ones. British Rail did the exact same thing with its older diesels, so why do you expect the railway today to do anything different?

 

[theblackwatch]

British Rail did the exact same thing with its older diesels, so why do you expect the railway today to do anything different?

And with steam too - anyone for a 9F that's only a few years old?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think we've had this discussion before about class 60s. Just because a loco exists doesn't mean it is useful any more. If a modern design is going to be better suited to current traffic / cheaper to run / cheaper to maintain in the long term, then it makes sense to store/scrap the older locos and purchase/lease new ones. British Rail did the exact same thing with its older diesels, so why do you expect the railway today to do anything different?

Quite, BR were even worse, certainly regarding certain members of the WR hydraulic fleet, withdrawing some after only 6-9 years service and these were state owned assets.

 

[GM228]

Quite, BR were even worse, certainly regarding certain members of the WR hydraulic fleet, withdrawing some after only 6-9 years service and these were state owned assets.

State owned assests disposed of by a state-owned company, so who's to blame? The state-owned company for doing it or the state for allowing it?

GM228

 

[Ash Bridge]

State owned assests disposed of by a state-owned company, so who's to blame? The state-owned company for doing it or the state for allowing it?

GM228

Hmm! Good question, to my mind both parties.

 

[richieb1971]

Thanks for the insight.

So with that knowledge base I only have 3 questions. Why parade a load of scrap metal for years in a siding? If the asset is useless to them why not put it for sale? Why not let an enthusiast try to do something with it now rather than wait another 10 years for it to rot?


Enthusiasts are seeing these locos like animal lovers are looking at caged under nourished dogs on the side of the street.

edit - storing costs can't be much, since DBS can store 100+ locos a day for nothing apparently. All you would need in most cases in someones permission.

 

[DarloRich]

Thanks for the insight.

So with that knowledge base I only have 3 questions. Why parade a load of scrap metal for years in a siding? If the asset is useless to them why not put it for sale? Why not let an enthusiast try to do something with it now rather than wait another 10 years for it to rot?

So you don't flood the market or that your trend analysis shows the value of scrap metal rising in the future

storing costs can't be much, since DBS can store 100+ locos a day for nothing apparently. All you would need in most cases in someones permission.

not in the real world. Storage costs are high. DB have the advantage of land within their ownership and space to store their locomotives on

 

[Juniper Driver]

Ok as it can't be done how about a 458?

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[Robertj21a]

Thanks for the insight.

So with that knowledge base I only have 3 questions. Why parade a load of scrap metal for years in a siding? If the asset is useless to them why not put it for sale? Why not let an enthusiast try to do something with it now rather than wait another 10 years for it to rot?


Enthusiasts are seeing these locos like animal lovers are looking at caged under nourished dogs on the side of the street.

edit - storing costs can't be much, since DBS can store 100+ locos a day for nothing apparently. All you would need in most cases in someones permission.

Perhaps you need to check out scrap metal prices over a 10 year period, don't forget that Accountants rule ! - and who is going to be bothered by a few 'enthusiasts' anyway ?

 

[CosherB]

This isn't just a UK issue ...... you should see what SNCF have stored at their yard in Rouen. wnxx reporting today (coincidentally) that there are 400 - 450 locos there in various states of repair / disrepair.

 

[richieb1971]

I dunno. I just think DBS could be doing a bit more. Would getting one 58 up and running break their bank? Would lots of enthusiasts love to have run behind one of them? (yes). If DBS were behind the refurb of a 58 it would be done in 3-4 months.

Its not asking much in my opinion. And there are some rewards to be had since DBS put quite a few locos on the front of charters.

I don't think many people in the railway industry care much about the railways at all. Just a load of big suits making crap loads of money and never thinking to be charitable with money or the things they control. Pretty lame in my humble opinion.