How old are the carriages?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by StateOfPlay, 27 Aug 2015.

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  1. StateOfPlay

    StateOfPlay Member

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    Hi there, new member to the forum. I am a commuter between Biggleswade and Kings Cross each day. I was just wondering if anyone knows how old the carriages are on the Great Northern line? The one I get at 17:13 has wood effect and the most uncomfortable seats imaginable.
     
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  3. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    I assume this would be a Class 317/1 which was built during 1981/82.
     
  4. StateOfPlay

    StateOfPlay Member

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    Thank you. 35 years old, sounds about right.

    I know they have some new carriages on that line, and they are far more comfortable. I wonder if they have plans to buy more?
     
  5. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Hi, there's a whole lot of modernisation going on across the East Coast, so let me fill you in. My local station is Huntingdon so I'm not far :D

    When the Thameslink works are completed in 2018 a number of the Great Northern routes will be diverted to St. Pancras low-level and through the Thameslink core. This includes the all-day service to/from Peterborough which will be served by brand-new Class 700s (two 12-car trains per hour).

    Meanwhile some of our existing units (the newer Class 365) will be retained for additional semi-fast services during the peak hours, as is the case now. Most existing trains will be replaced in due course.

    Welcome to the forum, hope this helps and feel free to ask anything you like. We're a friendly enough bunch ;)
     
  6. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    You will be getting new trains soon, they are being built in Germany now, with the first recently delivered for testing. Class 700s. Biggleswade will be seeing them in large numbers from 2017.

    But please don't talk about the seats on them, either number or comfort, as this thread will rapidly deteriorate.
     
  7. petersi

    petersi Member

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    I thought there were problems with clearance of the class 700 on the GN route as work was behind schedule on clearance for the third rail shoe
    may not be completed on time (not problem south of hitchin as 313s are third rail. Think problems are above Huntingdon can not find the posts)
     
  8. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    The problem areas exist north of St. Neots and Royston, as neither the Class 313 or Class 700 have retractable shoes. But I don't think they're close to risking the May 2018 timetable change yet.
     
  9. The47Wanderer

    The47Wanderer Member

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    After Watching "World's busiest railways" on BBC2 this week, I think we should have a similar System: "NNXXXX" plastered large on every coach, N being the date of manufacture, and X being the coach manufacture number :P

    (Or maybe we already do in fine print somewhere, eh!)
     
  10. petersi

    petersi Member

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    Though does it mean that we will not see 700s in service on GN until latter than expect ie late 2017 or early 2018 ?

    I assume it has no affect on driver traing
     
  11. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    It was always the intention to begin in passenger service on GN with the May 2018 timetable change, with the final 24tph Thameslink fully rolled out in December.

    Shouldn't think it will be a cause for concern, however there are several active TSGN drivers on this forum - they'll know more than I do :D
     
  12. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    It was mentioned in Modern Railways. Only 'reported issue' is on the Peterborough section. NR have been aware of the spec since the start and know what work is required for the introduction.

    Behind schedule is an interesting phrase to have used.

    You'll see 700s running around on the GN fairly soon.

    Date for passenger service is prior to Thameslink service. Same with Southern services that go over. Idea is train up the drivers and get the units unto the routes one by one until your ready to get services through the Core.

    Thameslink passenger services start May 2018, 700 passenger services start a lot soon.

    Oh and for the record the recent dates over the 700 testing given in Rail are wrong.
     
    Last edited: 28 Aug 2015
  13. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    As far as I'm aware it's the iron bridges south of Huntingdon station, where the track formation needs to be raised on all lines.

    Does that mean we'll see Class 700s running into Kings Cross initially?
     
  14. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    I'm not aware of the actual locations.

    Its always been the run the units on current routes ahead of introduction to Thameslink through services. So Peterborough to Kings Cross, Littlehampton to London Bridge, Blackfriars to Maidstone East etc etc.
     
  15. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    There's no unknown issues with gauge clearance for the 700s. The issue for bringing them into service is platform lengths between Royston and Cambridge, which has been known about for a long time. That story will be in my book.

    The testing dates in RAIL were right at the time the relevant interviews were conducted (talking to someone involved), but indeed are now incorrect.
     
    Last edited: 28 Aug 2015
  16. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    When can we pre-order that book?

    That's the joy commenting on a live project.
     
  17. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Happy to take non-committal pre orders now.

    Only £1000 deposit, no guarantee of publication!
     
  18. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    There are three different types of train operating on this part of the Great Northern:

    Class 317 as already described.
    Class 321 similar to the 317's. You can tell the 321's and 317's as they have 3+2 seating.
    Class 365's. These are decent trains with 2+2 seats although successive refurbishments have seen then successively 'cheapened'. For example the latest refurbishment has seen the carpets removed and replaced with vinyl flooring, which quickly becomes filthy. The 365's have a 'smiley face' on the front of them :D

    All of the above trains have a top speed of 100mph. Non have air conditioning. I believe the 365's were the last trains built by BR before privatisation.

    Apparently the new trains will have fewer seats per carriage so more people can stand. To be fair there will be more carriages so overall there will be more seats although think Metropolitan Line trains on the Underground and you probably won't be far wrong. I suspect far less comfortable than the 365's...

    The new trains will have air conditioning although something I do enjoy with the current trains in summer is a 100mph run down the ECML with all the windows open on a hot day :D
     
  19. Crossover

    Crossover Established Member

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    Class 365's must be the happiest trains on the network...even if the people on them aren't :D

    I had this a couple of years ago - a late evening (around 22:00) service out of Kings Cross, first stop Letchworth - mid August and it was boiling even at that time of night. All the windows open and blasting along at 100mph, the result was probably better than having air conditioning!
     
  20. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Why would we not be happy? Oh wait... with the majority of our 365s being taken away from us :lol:
     
  21. StateOfPlay

    StateOfPlay Member

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    Thanks for all your help so far, I am amazed at your knowledge.

    What class are the new carriages on the Great Northern Peterborough to KGX? They are so much more comfortable and I have room for my knees too which is a major plus!
     
  22. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    Great Northern haven't got any new carriages yet.

    I suspect you're confusing them for the refurbished class 365's. I think they're about halfway through the refurbishment programme but to an untrained eye they do look new.
     
  23. petersi

    petersi Member

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  24. StateOfPlay

    StateOfPlay Member

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    Yes, you are right, I thought they were new but I can see on a site called Eversholtrail that they are refurbished. Mind, they are still a darn sight better than the old carriages in the layout and design. The space to walk between the seats is wider, the space for my knees wider and the carriage is brighter.

    The old class 317 seats, with the mahogany effect, are the most uncomfortable seats. I get backache even though I am only on the train for 43 minutes :)

    Again, thanks for your information.
     
  25. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Eversholt Rail are the owners of the 40 Class 365 units, which are currently all leased to GTR (the GN operator). The refreshed interior does seem more welcoming, despite concerns initially :)

    Hmm, I've used each type of train on different days between Peterborough and London. Personally I don't mind the older seats (which are very cushioned), but an interior overhaul for the Class 317/321 is far overdue.
     
  26. StateOfPlay

    StateOfPlay Member

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    I was just reading the Eversholt site, and they mention the refurb 321 trains are air conditioned, but I haven't noticed this when I have been sweating buckets on one of them lol
     
  27. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    Only one 321 has been refurbished to date (321448 - the prototype). The first 'Renatus' refurbishment isn't due to appear from Wabtec until early 2016.
     
  28. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    The refurbishment you looked at will only be carried out on 30 of Greater Anglia's Class 321s initially. The only Class 321 with air conditioning currently fitted is 321448, the Eversholt demonstrator/prototype unit which has its own unique livery.

    None of the current Great Northern trains have proper air conditioning. Obviously this will change when the new Thameslink and Moorgate trains are running.
     
    Last edited: 30 Aug 2015
  29. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    The 365's are excellent trains and demonstrates what can be achieved with a good design.

    Unfortunately they will be withdrawn and sent elsewhere in a couple of years time in favour of the new class 700 trains (except for a few peak time extras) which are sure to be a step backwards in design and comfort.

    I realise something has to be done to squeeze more passengers in but I suspect we'll have fewer seats to enable more standing, less comfortable seats, more noise (I'm sure walk through carriages at 100mph will be more noisy than those with carriage end doors) and air conditioning that's either too hot or too cold.

    And we'll lose the happy face and the distinctive whining sound of the motors... :(
     
  30. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Not on the Peterborough branch we won't :) I'm certainly not complaining about full-length trains all day :D
     
  31. gimmea50anyday

    gimmea50anyday Established Member

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    [pedantmode] 39! 365 526 was written off in the potters bar derailment

    [/pedantmode:lol:]

    The 365's were indeed the last BR built units before privatisation caused the famous 1046 day trainbuilding famine. a follow on design networker there were plans to replace the 1957 CEP/BEP kent coast fleet with the class 471, with a diesel powered version for west of england duties, but majors cronies decided roadbuilding was investment whereas railway was subsidised and therefore ripe for privatisation. BR had an internal competition with either 40 networkers for NSE, 10 west coast allocated IC225 sets for IC or an unbuilt train fleet for Regional Railways. The networkers won as being the best value, and some were indeed allocated to kent coast when others went to WAGN. Eventually the fleet was dedicated to WAGN duties in order to standardise the fleet and the kent coast examples were transferred across.

    The network turbos eventually became 159's, which were actually 158's stolen from the TPE production batch. These were originally planned to be 471 styled networker tubos. 159's were chosen as they could be brought into service quicker than networkers as the 158's were already in production, and BR wanted rid of the 50's quickly. In order to cook the figures 50's were concentrated on the mule, given little maintenance and allowed to fail/break down while the 47's were concentrated out of paddington. Once government approved the 159's the 50's were phased out and the 47's took over which ironically proved to be just as unreliable as the 50's! Had the 50's received alternators at refurbishment instead of retaining the generators fitted when built they would have remained on the western region and eventually concentrated on XC work which they were far more suited to and may well have remained in service until the voyagers were introduced. the networker design was eventually improved and updated by adtranz (as ABB transportation was one of the builders, BREL the other) to form the electrostar/turbostar fleet still in production at Derby today.
     
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