How to make a railway network impossible for tourists

[brianthegiant]

does any one else ever reflect on our rail system & how it must appear to tourists visiting Britain.

1) use a complicated ticketing system with tickets which are only valid at certain times, on certain TOCs or even specific trains

2) charge exorbitant penalty fares if passenger misunderstands ticketing system

3) have a multitude of different train companies, give the TOCs a different name from the line (eg FCC & thameslink). change them every few years in case the tourist comes back for a repeat visit.

4) make announcements in obscure sentence structure that real people wouldn't use & make no sense if you're learning English as a 2nd language ("First class accommodation is at the rear of the train" - do they mean carriage?).

5) have the trains stopping at short platforms, but announce it just before the train arrives so tourists with heavy luggage don't have time to move down the train, if indeed they've understood the announcement.

6) have maps of the rail network on trains which only show selected parts of the network according to commercial interests.

Any others I haven't thought of?

To be fair there are also things we're reasonably good at (visual and audible departure info, friendly helpful staff, etc)

 

[yorksrob]

I do agree that the network needs to be presented to passengers as a national network. I think I said once before on here that all stations should have a map of the network on display.

 

[furryfeet]

monolingual signs and staff !

( I know that some SWT trains have guards with some french training )

 

[yorksrob]

One for the home grown tourists, how about - close most of the lines to the tourist destinations, particularly those on the coast

 

[asylumxl]

Or just close Skegness. That'll do.

 

[LE Greys]

To be fair, sectorisation brought about a lot of this under BR, certainly 1, 3 & 6 (remember 'Provincial Sector' becoming 'Regional Railways'?). Luckily, Brit Rail Passes are still available (at least according to Seat 61), although I'm not sure how well they are advertised in other countries. Others are unavoidable facts of life. However, on all my foreign trips, I've had to incorporate a lot of guesswork. The Paris Metro was a complete nightmare of passages and steps, and I could never work out whether New York Subway trains were going to stop at the right station. However, our network is probably the most Byzantine of the lot.

 

[tsr]

We also have confusing station names. Try "Stratford International", or "King's Cross St Pancras" vs "London King's Cross" & "London St Pancras International".

I also wonder what some visitors to our isles think of the vastly differing levels of comfort onboard services between major centres of the population that take similar timespans. Admittedly, this comparison is flawed due to the relative size and importance of the destinations, but take the differences in comfort of a Chiltern loco-hauled service between London Marylebone & Birmingham Moor St and a Southern 377 between London Victoria & Portsmouth Harbour as examples.

On a rather different and more positive note, at least service frequency is such in this country that many areas tourists tend to visit are reasonably well-served, so some of this country's more flexible tickets can often be used on a later train, should confusion occur and a service be missed.

 

[LE Greys]

We also have confusing station names. Try "Stratford International", or "King's Cross St Pancras" vs "London King's Cross" & "London St Pancras International".

Better than welcoming the French to "Waterloo International", I suppose!

 

[HowardGWR]

Better than welcoming the French to "Waterloo International", I suppose!

Especially as it was the Low Countries and Prussia wot wun it.

 

[Muzer]

I read in a book recently (I'm paraphrasing) with regards to Waterloo International:

"Don't worry, the French name their stations after their military victories too. Though, obviously, they have far fewer to choose from."

 

[tsr]

Better than welcoming the French to "Waterloo International", I suppose!

An easy way to quieten the complaints is to point out that they should have changed at Ashford International for Hastings...

 

[D1009]

Have you compared it to SNCF?

 

[t0ffeeman]

Was always really annoyed when an RPI gave a PF to tourists at Slough when visiting Windsor with a Travelcard. It was obvious they didn't know where the ticket was valid from , but as NX say PFs are for everyday mistakes!!!!

 

[W-on-Sea]

The point about comparing the British set-up to SNCF is a good one....the one definite thing that they do markedly better than us is to use indicator boards to identify train formations and where trains will stop on long platforms, before they arrive.

While there are clearly some points that need improvement (and I think the maps question is a major one, plus the existence of confusing ticketing restrictions/limitations - although that is hardly unique to Britain - although the information provided on our ticket machines are not that helpful too), I'm really not sure that in general the British network is markedly more confusing to use than any comparable network in other large European countries. (Sure, the Belgian network is easier to understand...but it's much smaller and by definition much less complex)

The point about TOC's being replaced or changing name is more or less comparable to re-brandings that happened during the later stages (particularly) of BR, too, and which also occurs on continental Europe, even where only one operator is involved.

 

[jon0844]

I always thought it stupid to have two ticket offices at St Pancras, each able to sell all tickets. Both marked as such, but operated by two different companies. Now they've made an attempt to merge them so it is less confusing, but what a crazy idea in the first place.

A great start at welcoming Eurostar arrivals!

 

[A-driver]

Try using Italian trains-Rome station for example. British trains are easy in comparison. I had lots of problems understanding Rome last year-tried to get on one train but the guard told me I had the wrong ticket for that train and needed a 7euro upgrade or something so waited on some other platforms - train came in late, no announcments where it was going or stopping, no staff about, nothing in departure screens etc.

I don't think they are anywhere near as bad over here as you suggest actually. At least if you are sticking to airport/city centre routes there are staff about, announcments, clear platform indications. Far superior to some European countries.

 

[Clip]

4) make announcements in obscure sentence structure that real people wouldn't use & make no sense if you're learning English as a 2nd language ("First class accommodation is at the rear of the train" - do they mean carriage?).

No they mean train, unless you're on a one carriage train that has first class then that is a perfectly valid sentence(as it would be for London bound services where it would be at the front of the train)


Just a thought for the rest of this discussion, our Railway isnt built for hte tourists so they come well down on the priority list im afraid.

 

[PR1Berske]

Try using Italian trains-Rome station for example. British trains are easy in comparison. I had lots of problems understanding Rome last year-tried to get on one train but the guard told me I had the wrong ticket for that train and needed a 7euro upgrade or something so waited on some other platforms - train came in late, no announcments where it was going or stopping, no staff about, nothing in departure screens etc.

I don't think they are anywhere near as bad over here as you suggest actually. At least if you are sticking to airport/city centre routes there are staff about, announcments, clear platform indications. Far superior to some European countries.

Ah but that's Italy in general. They don't do organisation.

(Quick paraphrase from asking a hotel receptionist about a nearby bus:

"And are there any timetables?"
"......" ((face said, "This is Italy. We don't do timetables"))

 

[GatwickDepress]

Ah but that's Italy in general. They don't do organisation.

(Quick paraphrase from asking a hotel receptionist about a nearby bus:

"And are there any timetables?"
"......" ((face said, "This is Italy. We don't do timetables"))

It certainly explains how Mussolini made the trains run on time*. Perhaps ATOC should be informed?

* Yes, I'm aware it's untrue, smartarse.

 

[yorksrob]

Try using Italian trains-Rome station for example. British trains are easy in comparison. I had lots of problems understanding Rome last year-tried to get on one train but the guard told me I had the wrong ticket for that train and needed a 7euro upgrade or something so waited on some other platforms - train came in late, no announcments where it was going or stopping, no staff about, nothing in departure screens etc.

I don't think they are anywhere near as bad over here as you suggest actually. At least if you are sticking to airport/city centre routes there are staff about, announcments, clear platform indications. Far superior to some European countries.

7 euros hardly sounds as though they're trying to put one over on the passenger

 

[Oscar]

Ah but that's Italy in general. They don't do organisation.

(Quick paraphrase from asking a hotel receptionist about a nearby bus:

"And are there any timetables?"
"......" ((face said, "This is Italy. We don't do timetables"))

Often no printed timetables are produced for public transport services in Italy - there are just timetables at stations or bus stops and on the internet.

 

[sarahj]

I'm with you on the maps. On our trains there used to be a SE rail service map and a full tube map. Now you get a southern route map and a inside the circle line map above the doors. The rest have been replaced by adverts.

I do, do a 3 language arriving at Gatwick announcement. But i think this is a complex one. Over the channel you often get native and english announcements at major stops, but over here which ones should we do, english and french, english and german, english and polish????

I do sometimes think that while some fares in the uk are complex, I've paid more than expected in germany for a ticket. The deals were there for folks with bahn cards, or in groups, but a single person, mmmmmm

plus we accept cards on the trains and all machines, in places like the netherlands the only way to pay is either cash, or dutch only maestro cards (bar the odd machine in amsterdam). The germans are also into the eurocards for payments..

As a side note PF fares on local transport are also much higher. Travel in Cologne with no ticket, or even an un validated one and its 60 euros, no arguments.

We also seems to have quite a more intensive main line network. Miss your train in Germany and it will be another 1-2 hours for your next IC in many places. France outside of the TGV network likes to have massive gaps in the system. And buses do replace trains as well, seen in both the Netherlands and Germany.

We are not perfect, but its not always so better across the channel.

 

[cuccir]

We are not perfect, but its not always so better across the channel.

This. With the Thalys confusion, getting decent information on how to catch a train from the UK to the Netherlands is a mess!

 

[A-driver]

7 euros hardly sounds as though they're trying to put one over on the passenger

Yea-but when you are travelling on ATOC free boxes you don't want to have to spend 14euros for 2 of you.

To be honest I don't think it was a real
Charge anyway as he said it had to be in cash so at a guess it would go straight into his pocket!

 

[455driver]

monolingual signs and staff !

( I know that some SWT trains have guards with some french training )

I think you will find they are French.

 

[6Gman]

I also wonder what some visitors to our isles think of the vastly differing levels of comfort onboard services between major centres of the population that take similar timespans. Admittedly, this comparison is flawed due to the relative size and importance of the destinations, but take the differences in comfort of a Chiltern loco-hauled service between London Marylebone & Birmingham Moor St and a Southern 377 between London Victoria & Portsmouth Harbour as examples.

I recall some American tourists travelling Edinburgh - Cardiff [capital to capital]. Edinburgh to Crewe by Pendolino, First Class, at seat service etc etc. Crewe to Cardiff by 175, Standard Class, trolley service. No Bourbon on offer - wouldn't accept Amex card.

Wonder what they'd have made of a 150 !

 

[tbtc]

We are not perfect, but its not always so better across the channel

Can't argue!

The UK must be a confusing enough place to visit, when those looking for Shakespere history end up in Stratford (East London), close to the DLR stop attracting Beatles fans is (Abbey Road, nowhere near *that* zebra crossing).

But then where is perfect? Which countries have a full map of all train routes at every railway station? Which countries excuse tourists for not having the right ticket? Grass is always greener...

 

[cgcenet]

But on the positive side:
It's very passholder-friendly, with passes such as InterRail and EURail valid on all trains (Heathrow Express, even, I believe!) with no supplements or mandatory seat reservations. Compare with using a rail pass on French TGV trains, where passholder fares are quota-controlled and somewhat expensive. So it's a shame, perhaps, that it's not especially easy to get into the UK on a rail pass (no ferry discounts, and only quota-controlled passholder fares on Eurostar that make the French TGV passholder fares seem cheap).
Likewise, standard walk-up tickets (Off-peak and Anytime) are inter-available across all operators on permitted routes; again no mandatory reservations, we don't do any of that "global pricing" nonsense that some countries do. This even applies to open access operators. In some other countries, train operators other than the main national operator have separate ticketing with no inter-availability; an example is the new Italian train operator whose name sounds like that of a TV station (Italo/NTV).

Essentially, the tourist visiting the UK on a rail pass or buying tickets for travel on the day need neither know nor care which of the multitude of train operators they happen to be using; it's mostly walk up, (buy a ticket) and hop on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This. With the Thalys confusion, getting decent information on how to catch a train from the UK to the Netherlands is a mess!

As is buying a ticket, with poor ticket integration among the different operators that you might use for this journey. Such through tickets as are available are always operator-specific and train-specific. It would be nice to return to the old days when you could buy an international rail ticket at your local rail station and it was valid on any train and ferry by any reasonable route.

 

[trainophile]

As British born tourists in London, we found the Tube system extremely complicated, despite the maps all over the place. However that might just be because we are doddery old fools .

 

[callum9999]

does any one else ever reflect on our rail system & how it must appear to tourists visiting Britain.

1) use a complicated ticketing system with tickets which are only valid at certain times, on certain TOCs or even specific trains

2) charge exorbitant penalty fares if passenger misunderstands ticketing system

3) have a multitude of different train companies, give the TOCs a different name from the line (eg FCC & thameslink). change them every few years in case the tourist comes back for a repeat visit.

4) make announcements in obscure sentence structure that real people wouldn't use & make no sense if you're learning English as a 2nd language ("First class accommodation is at the rear of the train" - do they mean carriage?).

5) have the trains stopping at short platforms, but announce it just before the train arrives so tourists with heavy luggage don't have time to move down the train, if indeed they've understood the announcement.

6) have maps of the rail network on trains which only show selected parts of the network according to commercial interests.

Any others I haven't thought of?

To be fair there are also things we're reasonably good at (visual and audible departure info, friendly helpful staff, etc)

I really can't say I find the system in this country any more confusing than other countries.

1) What's confusing about it? It's certainly preferable to many countries where you must buy a ticket for 1 train, whereas here you can buy a ticket that will let you get on dozens throughout the day. I was also pretty annoyed to be refused help with which trains I can use my ticket on in Germany because I bought the ticket from a machine which apparently means you aren't allowed to use customer services!

2) How do you know they "don't understand" though? Maybe they do but are just using them being foreign as an excuse (I know I've done that a couple of times!). This seems standard on train networks in other countries anyway.

3) I do think it's pretty unnecessary to have different branding on all the trains, though I don't see how it's particularly confusing. In fact, it makes using "Southern Only" etc. tickets a lot easier!

4) That sentence seems perfectly logical to me. Maybe they could have said "back of the train" but I don't think it's that confusing. Presumably they just do what I do when travelling abroad - read the displays to find out where I need to go. If they had a first class ticket (do many tourists actually buy those?) I'm sure they have the brains to figure out where it is. It's usually marked on the outside of the train.

5) That would be annoying yes, but how often does it happen? The only trains I get on announce that you have to move to the front carriage at station X after every stop - and the scrolling screen repeats it at the end of the list of upcoming stations.