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How to provide a location to 999

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py_megapixel

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You say that, but the one time I have called 999 (for an ambulance) the only thing they wanted was a postcode, which is a bit difficult if you're on a canal in a rural area.
What I've heard is that it does not accept grid refs.

I often go into remote areas on walks, and though I've never had to call 999 from such an area, a relative has. Apparently Mountain Rescue are capable of finding grid references, but 999 won't put you through to them unless you give them a postcode as their system won't accept the grid reference. The Ordnance Survey's database is capable of providing latitude and longitude for any given grid reference, so it probably isn't too hard for them to produce some kind of integration, assuming that @najaB is correct about the acceptance of latitude and longitude.

What the people designing this system seem not to have understood is that the emergency services might need to be called, as was the case in this derailment, to some arbitary point in the middle of nowhere. Here's an example. What's the postcode here? Who knows. There almost certainly isn't one.

The other thing emergency services are starting to accept is a What3Words address, but the app is still a little buggy and of course not many people have it. However, W3W already have a public API to query longitude and latitude for any particular 3-word address.
 
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The major issue with What3Words is that you need a phone with the app installed and a signal to make any sense of it. Also if you so much as misspell a single word the location could be on the other side of the world.

Whereas anyone with a map or a GPS device can understand and use a grid reference. The OSLocate app is far better.

What3Words has used some pretty unethical advertising recently. Mountain Rescue groups have had to make statements about it, saying that while they'll do their best to interpret it, a grid reference is far more useful to them.
 

eMeS

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I normally use OS Grid refs and my Garmin GPSMap 62S provides these without amgiguity* when it's on and satellites have been found. (Can be a few minutes, or longer...) I installed What3Words on my Smartphone yesterday evening, and here there's a big problem - the owner isn't that smart... (Which of the two or three refs offered, refer to my home?)

* I have had occasions when two Garmin GPS units agreed with each other, but were both reporting a different grid ref to one reported two weeks earlier at the same place.
 
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I normally use OS Grid refs and my Garmin GPSMap 62S provides these without amgiguity* when it's on and satellites have been found. (Can be a few minutes, or longer...) I installed What3Words on my Smartphone yesterday evening, and here there's a big problem - the owner isn't that smart... (Which of the two or three refs offered, refer to my home?)

* I have had occasions when two Garmin GPS units agreed with each other, but were both reporting a different grid ref to one reported two weeks earlier at the same place.

What3words is based on small squares, so you will not have 3 words for your house, you will have several. There are likely to be about 6 sets for your living room. If I walk from the front of my garden to the rear of the back garden there are 12 sets of words. It seems to be down to the accuracy of the GPS, but as the squares are so small. it doesn't really matter if you are one or two squares out as you are unlikely to be more than 10 metres away.
 
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si404

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What I've heard is that it does not accept grid refs.
So why on earth would they accept What3Words?

Both are ways of expressing coordinates in easier strings:
One's an open, mathematical, way with loads of apps that can turn it into lat/lon (while the OS database is easily available, as it's mathematical and well documented, the ability to convert it is totally open access). As a bonus, it's designed for easy use on government mapping.

The other is a proprietary, random, way with one company controlling the conversion database.

Obviously, as it's dangerous to waste time trying to get a different format, they should accept both as many formats as possible. In an ideal world, they shouldn't have to accept W3W, just as they shouldn't have to accept What3Emojis, but those annoying adverts pushing it as something to use in emergencies mean that people will give them locations as three words. Which, of course, means that the emergency services need to spend money on accessing the W3W database.

From the previous thread on What3Words: this post talks about emergency services telling people, via an app which can pass on location info easily, to download the W3W app. What a waste of precious time. The only reason why, that I can think of, is that Nepal uses W3W in lieu of a functioning address system (Mongolia made it official) and they have a stupid rule wanting location to take the form of how postal services have it*.

*which in this country, isn't a grid covering everywhere, but a methodology used by the postal system to help get post into the right postperson's bag that is public-facing so that the public can make their job sorting post easier...
 
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What3words is based on small squares, so you will not have 3 words for your house, you will have several. There are likely to be about 6 sets for your living room. If I walk from the front of my garden to the rear of the back garden there are 12 sets of words. It seems to be down to the accuracy of the GPS, but as the squares are so small. it doesn't really matter if you are one or two squares out as you are unlikely to be more than 10 metres away.
The thing is, if you get one word wrong over the phone (and they use some bizarre words in their system) you're as likely to get a location in the Indian Ocean as you are anywhere else. Over a bad phone line or a radio you could end up trying to spell out phonetically a series of 10-15 letter words. As compared to two letters and six numbers for an OS reference.

With an OS grid reference, if you recieve a reference with a number that's wrong, usually you can figure out the mistake or at least get you to near enough to the right area. With w3w unless it's absolutely correct you're screwed.
 
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In my experience, the emergency services won't take an OS grid reference.

A friend of mine had a canoeing accident, his friends rang 999 for an ambulance and had the 10 figure OS grid ref, they wouldn't turn out on that, instead they had to find a house and get the postcode.

Similarly, I'm a volunteer signalman on a heritage railway and needed the police, again they wouldn't accept an OS ref so I had to give them the postcode of a station nearby and say, well, it's 200 yards along the track from there!
 

mmh

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The thing is, if you get one word wrong over the phone (and they use some bizarre words in their system) you're as likely to get a location in the Indian Ocean as you are anywhere else. Over a bad phone line or a radio you could end up trying to spell out phonetically a series of 10-15 letter words. As compared to two letters and six numbers for an OS reference.

With an OS grid reference, if you recieve a reference with a number that's wrong, usually you can figure out the mistake or at least get you to near enough to the right area. With w3w unless it's absolutely correct you're screwed.

Absolutely. Anyone who's experienced voice recognition software should be wary of such a system. Not everyone has an RP accent, even regional twangs throw them, as those with a Welsh accent know too well.

It really comes across as a nothing innovation, a true dotcom style project. Somebody just realised that x cubed can be a huge number for a relatively low value of x. The opposite of the NATO alphabet!
 
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What I've heard is that it does not accept grid refs.

I often go into remote areas on walks, and though I've never had to call 999 from such an area, a relative has. Apparently Mountain Rescue are capable of finding grid references, but 999 won't put you through to them unless you give them a postcode as their system won't accept the grid reference. The Ordnance Survey's database is capable of providing latitude and longitude for any given grid reference, so it probably isn't too hard for them to produce some kind of integration, assuming that @najaB is correct about the acceptance of latitude and longitude.

What the people designing this system seem not to have understood is that the emergency services might need to be called, as was the case in this derailment, to some arbitary point in the middle of nowhere. Here's an example. What's the postcode here? Who knows. There almost certainly isn't one.

The other thing emergency services are starting to accept is a What3Words address, but the app is still a little buggy and of course not many people have it. However, W3W already have a public API to query longitude and latitude for any particular 3-word address.
That is incorrect. To be clear, the correct procedure to request Mountain Rescue via 999 is to ask for Police, and then Mountain Rescue. The police dispatcher and mountain rescue crews will understand and be able to use a grid reference, or use other means to locate you.

I've never heard of 999 refusing to accept a call without a post code, it sounds like a myth.

The emergency services will accept absolutely any means of locating you, so they will accept What3Words if that's the only means you have. But operator's are less likely to be familiar with it, it's not compatible with GPS equipment used by mountain rescue or police. It could severely delay a response.

Apps like OS Locate are far better for use in the UK.
 

py_megapixel

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That is incorrect. To be clear, the correct procedure to request Mountain Rescue via 999 is to ask for Police, and then Mountain Rescue. The police dispatcher and mountain rescue crews will understand and be able to use a grid reference, or use other means to locate you.

I've never heard of 999 refusing to accept a call without a post code, it sounds like a myth.

The emergency services will accept absolutely any means of locating you, so they will accept What3Words if that's the only means you have. But operator's are less likely to be familiar with it, it's not compatible with GPS equipment used by mountain rescue or police. It could severely delay a response.

Apps like OS Locate are far better for use in the UK.
As I say, it's an anecdote from someone else. I cannot guarantee that they are correct.
 

mmh

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I've never heard of 999 refusing to accept a call without a post code, it sounds like a myth.

Agreed. If that was the case they'd be refusing calls all the time, and they aren't. I can't picture an operator going into an explanation of the systems they use either. They're just trying to locate you.
 

Trackman

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Android automatically sends GPS co-ords via a background text on 999 calls and iPhone SOS emergency sends it too (AML).

Ye-olde phones they can see the location of the cell site to narrow it down, this is were it becomes a problem if the nearest cell site is miles away.
 

py_megapixel

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I've never heard of 999 refusing to accept a call without a post code, it sounds like a myth.
I'm not the only one to have heard of this

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stonehaven-derailment.207648/post-4719794
In my experience, the emergency services won't take an OS grid reference. A friend of mine had a canoeing accident, his freiends rang 999 for an ambulance and had the 10 figure OS grid ref, they wouldn't turn out on that, instead they had to find a house and get the postcode. Similarly, i'm a volunteer signalman on a heritage railway and needed the police, again they wouldn't accept an OS ref so I had to give them the postcode of a station nearby and say, well, it's 200 yards along the track from there!
 

mmh

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Yet countless 999 calls are from people with no idea of their coordinates or postcode. How do the police and ambulance ever turn up to a brawl outside a pub on a Saturday night?
 
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Ah, That's the Ambulance service. They can't generally respond to remote off road locations so ideally they will want a street address or a location on a road to turn out to. If they have a grid reference on it's own it might not be clear which road to take, and they're not really equipped for searching for casualties in remote areas. In this respect there's absolutely no difference between What3Words and an OS Grid Reference.

Similarly if it's not a remote location the police would much rather have an address. If you're 200 yards from a station why not give the address for that! Rather than giving a grid reference and make the police waste time interpreting it!

In an emergency, any information you can provide about your location will be used.
 

ASharpe

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At my work I tried what3words to try and deliver to customers in new builds where the lat-lon isn't available for the postcode (new builds mainly).

We found it hopeless on a computer, a bit better on a smart phone, but via an overseas contact centre it was a non starter.

I was left with the distinct impression that they had far too much investor cash and were intent on burning through it to get major brands on board. They keep getting in touch with my colleagues now trying to get us to run another trial.
 

najaB

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So why on earth would they accept What3Words?
Because someone behind W3W is spending a lot of money to try and convince people that it's a good idea. Given the amount of money that is being spent on infrastructure and advertising one has to assume that their plan is to get companies and public sector organisations 'hooked' (ie. build their business processes around W3W) and then start charging them lots of money in the future.
 

alxndr

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When I was involved in a slightly remote incident the paramedics who attended encouraged the use of what3words if we ever needed them out again. As it was they attended based on a description of how to get on the correct road where I was able to flag them down at the roadside. Unfortunately, it may have contributed to their lack of awareness that the incident had not occurred in an accessible area and they arrived with no plan for how to extract the injured person. Had the person making the phonecall been able to give a precise location they may have realised that they wouldn't be able to get their ambulance anywhere near and been more prepared.

Contrary to other posters here, I see the fact that what3words is liable to come up with a location the other side of the world if a word is misheard or understood is actually a benefit. With a bit of context, it should be immediately apparent that a mistake has been made. If I requested an ambulance from say, Suffolk, and gave a location in Istanbul they'll know to question it, but if I was to accidentally get a number wrong in a grid reference and direct them to a kilometre away it's not so obvious.

I don't think that W3W is perfect, but it can be useful in some cases. My instinct would be to go for postcodes first, with a description, if I was near houses. If I was remote I would see if W3W is accepted and if not then go for grid references. Fortunately, I have a variety of location finding apps on my phone anyway. If I wasn't able to obtain a location from said apps then it would need to be as good a description as I could get.
 

John Webb

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I am a frequent watcher of "Helicopter ER" about the two Yorkshire air ambulances. They are always using the OS Grid Reference system.

Most, if not all, emergency control centres have systems where calls from landlines immediately give the address that landline is calling from and with mobiles the area they are calling from. In the past the GPO emergency operator would ask for the number you were calling from besides which emergency service you wanted, and on connecting the call to the required service would announce the number you had said you were calling from. The modern systems speed this process up considerably!
 

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The major issue with What3Words is that you need a phone with the app installed and a signal to make any sense of it. Also if you so much as misspell a single word the location could be on the other side of the world.
You don’t need a mobile data signal to use What3words. Whilst you are reliant on your GPS being active, it will still work and give you your three word location even if there is no signal to load the map. This is on an iPhone, not sure how it behaves on more complex devices with the Android operating system.
 

si404

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At my work I tried what3words to try and deliver to customers in new builds where the lat-lon isn't available for the postcode (new builds mainly).
Another reason why Postcodes are not the best geolocator. The database takes a while to upgrade.

Because someone behind W3W is spending a lot of money to try and convince people that it's a good idea. Given the amount of money that is being spent on infrastructure and advertising one has to assume that their plan is to get companies and public sector organisations 'hooked' (ie. build their business processes around W3W) and then start charging them lots of money in the future.
Sounds right - it does seem to be something that they are trying desperately to make a load of money off in the future.
 

najaB

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This is on an iPhone, not sure how it behaves on more complex devices with the Android operating system.
It's the same on all platforms. All W3W does is use the GPS coordinates as a lookup value into a list of words. It really isn't anything that clever.
 

Mojo

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It's the same on all platforms. All W3W does is use the GPS coordinates as a lookup value into a list of words. It really isn't anything that clever.
Yes so as I suspected - you DONT need a data connection to use What3words.
 

Belperpete

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It's the same on all platforms. All W3W does is use the GPS coordinates as a lookup value into a list of words. It really isn't anything that clever.
But doesn't that mean the whole lookup table has to be pre-loaded onto your phone? How big is that?
 

najaB

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But doesn't that mean the whole lookup table has to be pre-loaded onto your phone? How big is that?
The power of cubes means that x ^ 3 can be a big number, for a small value of x.

The surface area of the Earth is ~5.1e14 square metres. W3W says they've divided the earth into 3x3 metre squares, so you can divide that number by 9 - meaning that there are 5.3e13 squares at most, the cube root of which is 38,410.

So they only need a database of ~38,500 words.
 

fireftrm

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What3Words is already in use by the vast majority of Emergency Service control rooms, they mobilise so they can then provide the responding resources with whichever other location details are required, post code, grid reference, street names etc. The app does not require a data connection and the 999 control room will be able to receive the 3 words by text should your spoken word not be clearly understood, though the idea that you can give a wrong word and have resources sent thousands of miles away is false, the control room operator types your 3 words into their system and sees your location immediately and would question if you were reporting that you are on a derailed train on the way to Ipswich but your 3 words are in Cheshire. You can send the 3 words and the directions to your location etc by text, FB messenger, email, WhatsApp, twitter and more. As said above you do need a phone and the app, you don't need data connection and after all you'll not be calling 999 without a phone signal anyway....
 

najaB

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As I noted on the previous thread about this, in principle there is nothing wrong with W3W since it simply provides a different way to provide geographical coordinates.

My issues with it are around the company:
  • They imply that they are doing something that couldn't be done any other way - this is patently false since all they are doing is mapping a set of coordinates from one system to another, using the phone's inbuilt GPS
  • Their advertising is pretty stupid since they have used several examples where people have been told to download the app and send the W3W address through WhatsApp - if you have WhatsApp then you can just send the location directly. Even if you don't have data, their app could just send the lat/long coordinates using a SMS
  • On that point, they are clearly using fear to try and scare people into downloading the app, pretty much every advert I've seen so far has featured someone in distress
  • There is clearly a profit motive here - their investment in infrastructure and advertising will have been quite substantial. How do they intend to monetise this investment?
  • This explains why they are using a closed system - if they had purely altruistic intent then they would make the database open access
 
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You don’t need a mobile data signal to use What3words. Whilst you are reliant on your GPS being active, it will still work and give you your three word location even if there is no signal to load the map. This is on an iPhone, not sure how it behaves on more complex devices with the Android operating system.
You do need a device with the app installed to understand a What3Words address. There's no way to load a what3words address into a GPS handset and it's not compatible with a lot of preexisting mapping software.

Also, if someone gives you an address but there's no signal to load the map, there's no other way of figuring out where they are or how to get there. You can't translate an address into OS Coordinates easily in app.
 
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