How will crossrail tickets work?

plugwash

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Is there any information on how tickets for crossrail will work?

Will there be a "london crossrail" destination similar to "london thameslink"?

Will tickets be issued to the individual stations in the crossrail core?

Will people wanting to travel to the crossrail core stations be forced to use oyster/contactless?
 
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JonathanH

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Speculation, but clearly it is likely to be on TfL's fare structure. The unknown is whether the mixed-mode premium will apply but it seems like some of those were removed as part of the 2019 fares changes when they thought Crossrail was due to open.

Presumably, a ticket with a Maltese cross will be needed to travel on National Rail paper tickets beyond Paddington and Liverpool Street and from Abbey Wood from Kent destinations. It would also seem probable that the Underground add-on would apply for journeys to stations on the Core as otherwise there will be revenue loss.
 

Ianno87

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Speculation, but clearly it is likely to be on TfL's fare structure. The unknown is whether the mixed-mode premium will apply but it seems like some of those were removed as part of the 2019 fares changes when they thought Crossrail was due to open.

Presumably, a ticket with a Maltese cross will be needed to travel on National Rail paper tickets beyond Paddington and Liverpool Street and from Abbey Wood from Kent destinations. It would also seem probable that the Underground add-on would apply for journeys to stations on the Core as otherwise there will be revenue loss.

Abbey Wood is an interesting one - you could argue that accepting "London Terminals" tickets from Western stations to Paddington and GEML stations to Liverpool Street is logical as they're replacing current services, but Abbey Wood is entirely new route so not really "grandfather rights" on London Terminals tickets.
 

swt_passenger

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I suspect all the exact same issues with London Terminals not being valid on the “wrong/other/further side of London” will exist, so long as gatelines everywhere can’t easily distinguish whether the route is valid.

I also predict on day 1 a hypothetical “London Crossrail” fare will still be in development, and whoever is sorting it out will be taken by surprise because they weren’t expecting it yet. o_O

(How many years did adding London Thameslink “from the south” take after DfT asked for it?)
 

JonathanH

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I also predict on day 1 a hypothetical “London Crossrail” fare will still be in development, and whoever is sorting it out will be taken by surprise because they weren’t expecting it yet.
The point about "London Thameslink" though is that it doesn't cost more than London Terminals and the whole journey is on "National Rail" services and infrastructure.

Currently, travelling to an underground station requires payment of a fare greater than the London Terminals fare. Crossrail is a TfL concession and TfL have their own fare structure. I could see there being no mixed-mode premium for Oyster / Contactless from Reading and Shenfield but think that paper tickets to 'London Crossrail' will need to be priced the same way as paper tickets to London Zones are currently priced.
 

cactustwirly

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The point about "London Thameslink" though is that it doesn't cost more than London Terminals and the whole journey is on "National Rail" services and infrastructure.

Currently, travelling to an underground station requires payment of a fare greater than the London Terminals fare. Crossrail is a TfL concession and TfL have their own fare structure. I could see there being no mixed-mode premium for Oyster / Contactless from Reading and Shenfield but think that paper tickets to 'London Crossrail' will need to be priced the same way as paper tickets to London Zones are currently priced.

But Crossrail is a National Rail service, although TfL have their own fare structure they still have to obide by the NRCoT and TSA.

Also worth remembering that fares from TfL rail west stations into London are set by GWR and not TfL rail
 

JonathanH

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But Crossrail is a National Rail service, although TfL have their own fare structure they still have to obide by the NRCoT and TSA.

Also worth remembering that fares from TfL rail west stations into London are set by GWR and not TfL rail
Yes, conveniently set on the TfL scale from West Drayton eastwards (with no mixed-mode premium) and something different further west (with a mixed-mode premium).
 

Snow1964

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I am also baffled by this, and the Add ons if beyond zones.

Eg a Richmond-Upminster journey could be done direct (and slow) by District line, or could take overground via North London line and Gospel Oak Barking, or could change via Ealing Broadway then Crossrail to Romford, or even Waterloo then jubilee to West Ham. Are they all valid routes ?

But suppose you started further out, say Staines and went on to Southend, does that then become a cross London journey with non zonal fares, and can you still use the crossrail route within the above combinations.

It would be much clearer with real example
 

Watershed

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It seems likely they'll do the bare minimum to accommodate paper tickets on the route - single fares between the core stations only, everyone else having to use Oyster/contactless or having a cross-London or Zone U12 ticket.

As the PAYG fare scale will be "Tube", it will cost the same to use as the Tube does. That means, for 99% of people travelling from within the numbered Zones, the PAYG fare will be the same to Paddington LL or Liverpool Street LL as it is for any other "core" station.

However for those travelling on a journey which involves non-Tube fare scales, e.g. Shenfield or Reading-Langley (inclusive), or connecting from Southeastern into Abbey Wood, they will be charged a Zone 1 'Tube single' on top. Again, no different to the Tube.

Basically for ticketing purposes it will be another Tube line.

a Richmond-Upminster journey could be done direct (and slow) by District line, or could take overground via North London line and Gospel Oak Barking, or could change via Ealing Broadway then Crossrail to Romford, or even Waterloo then jubilee to West Ham. Are they all valid routes ?
I'm not sure about the Ealing Broadway route but on a paper ticket those would probably all be valid. Thing is, it'd have to be a very unusual set of circumstances to warrant buying a paper single or return, given how much cheaper the PAYG fares are.

But suppose you started further out, say Staines and went on to Southend, does that then become a cross London journey with non zonal fares, and can you still use the crossrail route within the above combinations.
Yes, it would be treated exactly the same as Thameslink or the Tube. It's simply a cross London transfer.
 

MarlowDonkey

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It would seem logical that to travel from outside the zones to a station inside Zone 1 is exactly the same as at the moment. After all, it will still be possible to arrive at Paddington and travel to Bond Street via the Bakerloo and Jubilee. The question perhaps is whether the currently cheaper fare to Paddington only will survive. Similarly on the East side with Liverpool Street.
 

Hadders

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It'll be interesting to see what ends up happening. Clearly TfL will want everyone to use contactless or Oyster and for most journeys this will be the most appropriate way to pay. I'd expect TfL fares to be charged.

Through fares involving a cross London connection will be unaffected, so for example Ipswich to Didcot routed '+Any Permitted' would be valid via the Elizabeth Line. I suppose it's possible that they might introduce a slightly cheaper 'via Elizabeth Line' routeing on some flows to encourage use of the Elizabeth Line as a way of crossing London on some flows.

Where it could get interesting is for someone who wants to travel from somewhere like Reading to Bond Street. Contactless won't be appropriate for everyone, especially rail card holders so there'll be a need for paper tickets. A ticket to 'Zone U12 London' would work but this isn't exactly simple for Joe Public to understand, so I wonder if there will be a Crossrail equivalent of 'London Thameslink'
 

Watershed

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Where it could get interesting is for someone who wants to travel from somewhere like Reading to Bond Street. Contactless won't be appropriate for everyone, especially rail card holders so there'll be a need for paper tickets. A ticket to 'Zone U12 London' would work but this isn't exactly simple for Joe Public to understand, so I wonder if there will be a Crossrail equivalent of 'London Thameslink'
Railcard holders etc. are clearly not in great favour with TfL. I'm sure they would be more than happy if they can get away with suggesting that such passengers should always use contactless - after all, it's "simple" (read: expensive for some).
 

JonathanH

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I'm sure they would be more than happy if they can get away with suggesting that such passengers should always use contactless - after all, it's "simple" (read: expensive for some).
There would be massive support for Contactless PAYG to be the only fare structure around London if it was coupled with the right fares - clearly not from everyone but the people in favour would have a stronger voice than people against. Simple and easily understood. Clearly there would be some losers but, in most commuters' mind, it is simple and convenient. TfL don't really have any interest in Railcard holders - it isn't their product (and of course, even on Oyster, the offering to railcard holders is different from the offering on paper tickets).

I don't think a complete switchover is going to happen before Crossrail opens though.
 

matt_world2004

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But Crossrail is a National Rail service, although TfL have their own fare structure they still have to obide by the NRCoT and TSA.

Also worth remembering that fares from TfL rail west stations into London are set by GWR and not TfL rail
It is not a national rail service in the core. The core is not part of the national rail network. Like the Heathrow branch is not part of the national rail network or the east London line is not part of the national rail network despite having "national rail" trains on them
 

yorkie

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The point about "London Thameslink" though is that it doesn't cost more than London Terminals and the whole journey is on "National Rail" services and infrastructure.

Currently, travelling to an underground station requires payment of a fare greater than the London Terminals fare. Crossrail is a TfL concession and TfL have their own fare structure.
CrossRail is a part of National Rail, and by your logic London Thameslink would not include Farringdon, yet it does.

There will surely be no mixed mode premium; I don't see how there is any rationale for that, and it would go against the precedents already set.

Also when you say "Currently, travelling to an underground station requires payment of a fare greater than the London Terminals fare", this is not true when using PAYG from stations within Zones 1-6 into Paddington e.g. West Drayton to Paddington costs the same as West Drayton to Liverpool Street.
 

JonathanH

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CrossRail is a part of National Rail, and by your logic London Thameslink would not include Farringdon, yet it does.
Farringdon is a TfL station, yes, and indeed it is that station where a 'London Thameslink' station is required in each direction but arrival there is on a National Rail train. I guess your point is why should 'London Thameslink' but not 'London Crossrail' apply at Farringdon if both are National Rail services.

Let's wait and see what happens with Crossrail. There are ideas in this thread but the reality is that we don't know. I note the revenue loss if there isn't a 'mixed-mode premium' but maybe that will be offset by more people travelling. (How can the best part of £20bn be spent and people travel on it 'for free'?) Either way, 'London Terminals' on the 'paper' fare structure no doubt ends at Paddington and Liverpool Street.

What do you think will happen for a person travelling from Brighton to Bond Street via Farringdon and equally Henley-on-Thames to City Thameslink via Farringdon. Will they get a 'London Crossrail' fare valid only via Farringdon and priced at the same rate as a London Terminals ticket?
 

yorkie

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I fully expect there to be a complete mess, and loopholes/discrepancies galore as the Government/rail industry will not want to set the pricing to be an appropriate level, due to their obsession over charging premiums for certain journeys.

If anyone wishes to post any proposals, feel free to post these in Speculative Ideas (feel free to link to any such thread from here)
 

cactustwirly

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It is not a national rail service in the core. The core is not part of the national rail network. Like the Heathrow branch is not part of the national rail network or the east London line is not part of the national rail network despite having "national rail" trains on them

Who owns the track is irrelevant in this case. TfL is a National Rail operator when it comes down to fares.

HEx is slightly different as they are an open access operator, so their obligations regarding ticketing are different.
 

Ianno87

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Through fares involving a cross London connection will be unaffected, so for example Ipswich to Didcot routed '+Any Permitted' would be valid via the Elizabeth Line. I suppose it's possible that they might introduce a slightly cheaper 'via Elizabeth Line' routeing on some flows to encourage use of the Elizabeth Line as a way of crossing London on some flows.

I can't see the revenue logic in that - it would presumably be TfL abstracting revenue from...TfL in that case, why would TfL reduce its own income (from a Maltese Cross ticket to a "Via Lizzie" tickets). That's different to Thameslink "Not Underground" tickets whereby GTR take all the revenue as a result.


Where it could get interesting is for someone who wants to travel from somewhere like Reading to Bond Street. Contactless won't be appropriate for everyone, especially rail card holders so there'll be a need for paper tickets. A ticket to 'Zone U12 London' would work but this isn't exactly simple for Joe Public to understand, so I wonder if there will be a Crossrail equivalent of 'London Thameslink'

I wouldn't get your hopes up - there's no real advantage as (Unlike Thameslink) all direct journeys to the core can be made on Contactless (yes, I know that's not great for Railcard holders), and all other cases can be covered by U12 tickets/Travelcards (which I'd argue is simple, as that's what applies to Underground journeys at present)
 

Watershed

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I can't see the revenue logic in that - it would presumably be TfL abstracting revenue from...TfL in that case, why would TfL reduce its own income (from a Maltese Cross ticket to a "Via Lizzie" tickets). That's different to Thameslink "Not Underground" tickets whereby GTR take all the revenue as a result.
The one advantage would be that it directs passenger flows via a more capacious route - part of the justification for Crossrail in the first place was that it will relieve the Central line.

However, firstly people will use it anyway (and be directed into it by journey planners) if it's the fastest route. And more importantly, it's going to be virtually impossible to enforce such a route restriction as there aren't any pink readers to distinguish between Zone 1 routes.
 

Ianno87

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The one advantage would be that it directs passenger flows via a more capacious route - part of the justification for Crossrail in the first place was that it will relieve the Central line.

However, firstly people will use it anyway (and be directed into it by journey planners) if it's the fastest route. And more importantly, it's going to be virtually impossible to enforce such a route restriction as there aren't any pink readers to distinguish between Zone 1 routes.

I think Crossrail will attract passengers pretty effectively on its own merit (capacity and journey time), without price incentives being necessary.
 

Horizon22

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Abbey Wood is an interesting one - you could argue that accepting "London Terminals" tickets from Western stations to Paddington and GEML stations to Liverpool Street is logical as they're replacing current services, but Abbey Wood is entirely new route so not really "grandfather rights" on London Terminals tickets.

Would Abbey Wood need the pink interchange readers? And how would the system manage changing at Whitechapel I wonder? Edit: I guess the relevant barriers instead of the underground at origin/destination?

The one advantage would be that it directs passenger flows via a more capacious route - part of the justification for Crossrail in the first place was that it will relieve the Central line.

However, firstly people will use it anyway (and be directed into it by journey planners) if it's the fastest route. And more importantly, it's going to be virtually impossible to enforce such a route restriction as there aren't any pink readers to distinguish between Zone 1 routes.

Its definitely going to be the fastest route E-W. One only needs to see the masses getting off at Ealing Broadway / Paddington / Liverpool St / Stratford each morning who are continuing on more centrally to know this.

Anyway on the point centrally, they'll of course be regular Zone 1 destinations for contactless / oyster. As @yorkie says, if government or TfL now wants to charge a premium then you could well see a "London Crossrail" for passengers terminating here, although a travelcard might then be the better point anyway. Forcing people to use Contactless would probably not be feasible, especially where there's no Oyster alternative Reading - West Drayton.
 
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matt_world2004

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Who owns the track is irrelevant in this case. TfL is a National Rail operator when it comes down to fares.

HEx is slightly different as they are an open access operator, so their obligations regarding ticketing are different.
So the tube is a national rail service then?
 

zwk500

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So the tube is a national rail service then?
AIUI TfL Rail, London Overground and London Underground are 3 separate TOCs and all have a different relationship with the national network.

AIUI Crossrail will have a very similar setup to the East London Line, with the infrastructure being owned by a TfL subsidiary and NR contracted to maintain and operate it and a separate company contracted to fulfill the TOC side of things. Therefore I'd expect Crossrail to have a similar fares and ticketing structure to the ELL. However I may be very, very wrong on this so I'm sure somebody who knows more details will correct me later.
 

Horizon22

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AIUI TfL Rail, London Overground and London Underground are 3 separate TOCs and all have a different relationship with the national network.

AIUI Crossrail will have a very similar setup to the East London Line, with the infrastructure being owned by a TfL subsidiary and NR contracted to maintain and operate it and a separate company contracted to fulfill the TOC side of things. Therefore I'd expect Crossrail to have a similar fares and ticketing structure to the ELL. However I may be very, very wrong on this so I'm sure somebody who knows more details will correct me later.

I'm not sure the central section is known who is contracted to maintain it - I personally believed NR weren't directly involved?
 

zwk500

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I'm not sure the central section is known who is contracted to maintain it - I personally believed NR weren't directly involved?
Quite possibly - certainly NR are only involved in parts of the ELL (like running test trains), so I wouldn't be surprised if TfL can get a better deal for the specialist job of maintaining in tunnels with a different company.

The key point was more about the operational involvement. NR signallers control the ELL, and trains run through to the NR network with LO being a franchised TOC. You can buy tickets to each individual ELL station, or use TfL travelcards/contactless/oyster but there isn't an 'ELL Stations' group destination like there is on Thameslink.
 

Horizon22

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Quite possibly - certainly NR are only involved in parts of the ELL (like running test trains), so I wouldn't be surprised if TfL can get a better deal for the specialist job of maintaining in tunnels with a different company.

The key point was more about the operational involvement. NR signallers control the ELL, and trains run through to the NR network with LO being a franchised TOC. You can buy tickets to each individual ELL station, or use TfL travelcards/contactless/oyster but there isn't an 'ELL Stations' group destination like there is on Thameslink.

Yes well Crossrail / Elizabeth Line is a bit of everything running and operating specific parts in different ways with various comparisons that we can make with other operations, depending on which section you are looking at. Hence why these Crossrail tickets are a bit of an unknown.
 

zwk500

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Yes well Crossrail / Elizabeth Line is a bit of everything running and operating specific parts in different ways with various comparisons that we can make with other operations, depending on which section you are looking at. Hence why these Crossrail tickets are a bit of an unknown.
Of course, no comparison between 2 real world examples will ever match 100%. But TL and most of LO is a through-and-through TOC on the national network and the tube is it's own thing that happens to share the odd bit of track with NR, whereas the ELL is a dedicated 'core' section, with multiple branches out onto the national network in a very similar way to XR. The key factor in ticket & fare structure will, of course, be the journeys that people are likely to make. I'm not sure how XR compares to TL/LU/LO/ELL on that front.
 

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