How will GTR cope with Brighton Pride crowds?

[Esker-pades]

I think that it may actually be 666 seated plus 1088 standing.
http://data.parliament.uk/Deposited...413/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail_small.pdf

That actually makes more sense. So, maximum capacity of 1754, which I doubt could be increased much further. That's still 33 trains to take the concert home.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Explain. It was a fact that homosexuality used to be illegal in this country.

Was it? I certainly remember that until a few decades ago, it was illegal to actually have gay sex. But I don't recall that being gay per se ever was illegal. (Though obviously in practice the difference wouldn't be that significant, since most people wouldn't want to be celibate their entire lives).

To get back on topic, I was passing through London Bridge on a Cannon Street train yesterday morning, and while my train was stopped, I looked across and happened to see a Thameslink train full and standing, and could hear announcements to move right down inside the train - from which it was very apparent that platform staff were struggling to get the train loaded and departed. I couldn't see where it was heading, but out of curiosity checked live departures on my phone, revealing it to be the Brighton train. I assumed at the time it was mainly the good weather causing a deluge of Brighton passengers. Thanks to this thread I now understand what was really happening!

 

[infobleep]

No, no "bitter irony" at all. The comment was that anyone attending a Pride event would have been arrested. This is just plain inaccurate and offensive. It may have been a careless use of language I guess.

Well if gay pride had been running when it was illegal to be gay then they way well have been. The past wasn't so good. This time has moved on for the better in some rrsoects

Yup GTR get a fixed fee and give all revenue money (ticket sales) to the DfT. If the DfT want more trains, they have to pay GTR to increase services/ staffing/ track access.

So would GTR have asked the DfT if they could run more trains yesterday?

 

[mmh]

Well if gay pride had been running when it was illegal to be gay then they way well have been. The past wasn't so good. This time has moved on for the better in some rrsoects

Absolutely. I'd guess we'll never see Andrew S again and he only joined to display his own prejudice hoping that his stereotype of "trainspotters" was right. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

 

[johnw]

The ‘problem’ with gay pride events is that they have become mainstream carnivals. As a gay guy myself it’s great that society has become largely tollarant, but it is going to actract bigger crowds. It sounds hell on earth to attend x amount of people watch Britney Spears sing, or stand in Oxford Street watching the gay employees of the Nat West or members of the Labour Party march past for four hours. And as a gay man I do find it tiresome that most TOCs have changed there logo to that awful rainbow symbol.

 

[tsr]

Any careful plan will have another "standby" train for use , after the last advertised one in an event like this.

They did. (GTR are well versed in this sort of stuff. They used to do it with unadvertised stoppers which always ran down the BML after the last advertised trains on Christmas Eve as well, though it’s since proved a sheer waste of resources.)

I am not sure it did.

Much of what he proposed has been done - using GTR to service the overnight railway rather than Southern at Victoria. He argued probably correctly that the overnight railway was over supplied and was a legacy of the competition between 3 separate franchises that became enshrined in franchise agreements instead of being rationalised. There railway isn't very good at rationalising it's timetable.

He also suggested the Redhill loop not be served Sun-Thur in the small hours to allow overnight trains to alternate between routes at will. But a comprehensive overnight timetable was produced in Appendix 3.

There is massive demand from Gatwick into London even past midnight and scheduled landings most of the night. The timing of demand is also determined by flight delays and passport queues. Final takeoff is about 11.30 but Gibb only graphed outbound passenger numbers for some reason.

To counter those points, Gibb missed out several things (as ever in his report, and indeed doubtless in his scrutiny of the May timetable change, which was dealt with by the Transport Select Committee).

The overnight railway in the Sussex was remarkably flexible, especially before drivers’ diversionary route knowledge around South London was somewhat removed. The Southern service was usually busy, and most of the same route is served now, without significant disruption, when overnight Thameslink services actually run, subject to driver cover. Although it is fair to say that there is more overnight single line working nowadays around the Purley to Gatwick stretch, a properly planned service could still maintain a Southern option, which used to cater neatly to a lot of overnight tourist, entertainment and employment options around the West End, something which Blackfriars is mostly inconvenient for, likewise other TL Core stations.

Rationalisation had already happened - many GX services have been eroded long before the Gibb report arrived - the Southern options served everyone quite well, as they ran like clockwork, weren’t usually especially slow, and mostly had capacity to spare for airport passengers, except around party season near Christmas. TL was always the unreliable cousin and nobody much relied on them to get to the airport, although they had some local traffic. It’s much the same with TL now, except there’s often no reasonable Southern alternative. I can personally vouch for seeing long streams of cars on the A23 et al between London, Croydon, Gatwick and Crawley, late into the night heading both ways, and early in the morning heading to the airport. The road traffic seems to have increased exponentially in the last year, certainly the last few months.

Skipping of the Redhill “loop” (actually a mainline in its own right) is sheer folly. Redhill has almost no overnight public transport and there is surpressed demand which has often been clearly seen. I used to regularly commute on the 0102 Victoria-Brighton; always a busy train and most passengers used to pester anyone in a railway uniform to see if it would do the staff stop at Redhill (for which all doors would regularly be opened, and anyone could board or alight). It mostly did stop, and half the train would alight. There are so few options from useful parts of London that people are deserting it as a “railhead” type of station, but it never had to be abandoned in that way, especially as the infrastructure on the Redhill route is actually considerably less troublesome than the Quarry Lines, and much of the track patrolling via Redhill can still be permitted between trains, unlike the Quarry.

There’s also been a fair bit of deception as the reduction of the overnight service was, of course, promised to be temporary. A big “hmmm”!

....and, hopefully, another 2 or 3 'just in case'.

That was done as well.

I travelled from London last year for a concert that would have finished at about the same time (significantly smaller than Britney, it was at West Hill Hall) and although crowded, it wasn't a shambles like this appears to have been. The queuing was well organised, and even coped with a full train being cancelled about 20 minutes after its scheduled departure time as they couldn't find anyone to drive it. I got on the next train without a huge problem, and it was standing room only but certainly not dangerously full.

London has many mainline termini and interchanges (one reason why termini can be superior to through running) to which people readily disperse. In extreme situations they can act as compass-point queuing points and can absorb an awful lot of people that way - but a single concert would probably never lead to this at more than one or two stations.

The capacity of a 12 car class 700 is 1088 (including standees). That's 53 trains before one even considers Brighton Pride. Add to that the fact that a class 377 of the same length can take fewer standees.

You can fit a hell of a lot more people than that in a 700. 1300 could be accommodated without too much fuss, more if crush-loaded. The fact is that some trains were leaving Brighton empty anyway, so this was not the most pressing problem. The ebb and flow of people into the station was not well-controlled (by some accounts, the BTP lost control, which isn’t surprising as they are chronically under-resourced in the Sussex area in particular).

And that’s not accounting for the fact that by no means all the people attending this event would use the trains, so you’re not transporting everyone.

 

[yorksrob]

My 'trick' is getting a hotel a reasonable distance away. Perhaps one or two stations away, .

But presumably you still have to get the same train that everyone else is trying to get on !

 

[infobleep]

It's interesting to note that when passengers were asking on Twitter why is no information being given out at Brighton, a single sock paragraph was mostly used, with the persons name, who they were addressing, changed each time.

It's like they weren't listening to the passengers. That must have wound them up even more.

Hi Murray, Additional trains are running to move passengers along. The safety of our passengers is our utmost priority. We need to ensure this is not compromised and the decisions made reflect this and were on advice from the BTP ^NN

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/1025893273985064960?s=19

 

[mmh]

The ‘problem’ with gay pride events is that they have become mainstream carnivals. As a gay guy myself it’s great that society has become largely tollarant, but it is going to actract bigger crowds. It sounds hell on earth to attend x amount of people watch Britney Spears sing, or stand in Oxford Street watching the gay employees of the Nat West or members of the Labour Party march past for four hours. And as a gay man I do find it tiresome that most TOCs have changed there logo to that awful rainbow symbol.

You've put it far more succinctly than I could and wanted to, thank you! I'm afraid I think Brighton, London and Manchester pride are all long due retirement. Lots of smaller places have far nicer un-commercialised events, but I'm old and grumpy enough to hate the whole idea that a company has solved prejudice by putting a rainbow flag up or on a bottle of vodka. It's pinkwashing of the worst kind.

Unfortunately I work somewhere where people think they've been oh so inclusive and tolerant by putting bloody rainbow flags up (all year round, not just for whatever "pride season" is) - how wrong they are. It's self-congratulatory back-slapping nonsense.

 

[Taunton]

40 years ago.

A July Saturday in 1978. Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton etc at Blackbushe Airfield, near Fleet on the SWML. About 200,000, including self. Finished several hours late, after midnight (inevitably).

Bad old British Rail, bad old staff attitudes throughout, bad old slam door stock (all according to constant posters here). But what a return service to Waterloo. Multiple empty 12EPB, fully staffed of course, apparently holding at every signal back to Basingstoke ready to step forward to carry the crowds back to London. In, load, every door double-checked secure, dispatch, next one in. Well beyond SW division stock resources, so trains had come round from Selhurst and Slade Green to help out. Not a problem. Station staff and management ensuring everyone had tickets. The outward earlier in the day had been similarly handled. Not a single cancellation previous or next day because "stock not in the right place". (80mph in suburban stock on the Up Fast through the middle of the night with all the droplights down is a worthy competitor to the concert for lasting memories)

Where did that attitude go?

 

[yorksrob]

40 years ago.

A July Saturday in 1978. Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton etc at Blackbushe Airfield, near Fleet on the SWML. About 200,000, including self. Finished several hours late, after midnight (inevitably).

Bad old British Rail, bad old staff attitudes throughout, bad old slam door stock (all according to constant posters here). But what a return service to Waterloo. Multiple empty 12EPB, fully staffed of course, apparently holding at every signal back to Basingstoke ready to step forward to carry the crowds back to London. In, load, dispatch, next one in. Well beyond SW division stock resources, so trains had come round from Selhurst and Slade Green to help out. Not a problem. Station staff and management ensuring everyone had tickets. The outward earlier in the day had been similarly handled. Not a single cancellation previous or next day because "stock not in the right place". (80mph in suburban stock on the Up Fast through the middle of the night with all the droplights down is a worthy competitor to the concert for lasting memories)

Where did that attitude go?

Sounds like a very impressive operation !

The old Southern Region at its best.

 

[sbt]

It's self-congratulatory back-slapping nonsense.

An alternative view is that people from my employer go to be Proud.

In 1986, when I started as an MOD Scientist, being LGBT lost you the job - Security Clearance is required. Today we have very many openly LGBT staff, including some very senior ones. If you transition both the HR and Security system is set up to handle the process smoothly.

Staff go, many wearing clothing that says who they work for, that they pay for (because such things are not funded by the Taxpayers), I assume because they are proud of what they do for a living, how far we have come, and to show that they are either Out and Proud or because they support the way the world, and their employer, is changing - in some cases doubly so, as some of our staff can't have their name attached to their job[1]. And, yes, to have fun at a fun event.

Yes there is tokenism out there. But for a lot of people this is still saying what the original Pride said - LGBT people are here, LGBT people are people, LGBT people won't go away and LGBT people refuse to be invisible or silenced. And for some of our staff it takes courage to be seen in public identifying themselves as working for us, quite outside their sexual orientation.

From the point of view of my employer this is encouraged for two very important reasons. Firstly we have problems recruiting and the 'anti-gay' label still hovers around us. Being visibly supportive of LGBT staff is one way round that, it's an advantage, or a counter to a disadvantage, in a market where we can't pay the going rate. The other is that a lot of our work benefits directly from multiple different kinds of view - the old world of Straight White Anglo Saxon Protestant Males isn't just wrong it is actively damaging in those jobs.

As someone who has many LGBT friends and a Bi ex I am aware that today's Pride events are more commercial and take place in a less hostile atmosphere than the past and maybe Brighton has got to large to be held in it's current form. But I am aware of how recently my ex and others had to hide their sexual orientation in various situations (and still do in some situations) and the issues my Trans colleagues still face, even at places like London Pride. I am aware how toxic much of the online and overseas world is for them and how easily many of the surprisingly recent gains could be rolled back. That is why Pride is still relevant.

[1] For example the identities of our staff who have been dealing with the Salisbury / Amesbury attacks are being kept under wraps. They will get the credit they deserve in 30 years - maybe.

 

[SSp]

I think this is veering off topic now, and in response to the previous post straight people have to hide their sexuality 40hours a week too.

Overall, shouldn't events like these be treated something like Leeds Festival or other rural ones - hundreds of coaches pre planned. There should be an understanding the railway can't take the strain.

 

[Mag_seven]

40 years ago.

A July Saturday in 1978. Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton etc at Blackbushe Airfield, near Fleet on the SWML. About 200,000, including self. Finished several hours late, after midnight (inevitably).

Bad old British Rail, bad old staff attitudes throughout, bad old slam door stock (all according to constant posters here). But what a return service to Waterloo. Multiple empty 12EPB, fully staffed of course, apparently holding at every signal back to Basingstoke ready to step forward to carry the crowds back to London. In, load, every door double-checked secure, dispatch, next one in. Well beyond SW division stock resources, so trains had come round from Selhurst and Slade Green to help out. Not a problem. Station staff and management ensuring everyone had tickets. The outward earlier in the day had been similarly handled. Not a single cancellation previous or next day because "stock not in the right place". (80mph in suburban stock on the Up Fast through the middle of the night with all the droplights down is a worthy competitor to the concert for lasting memories)

Where did that attitude go?

The days when we had "one railway". No doubt someone will come along and accuse you of having "rose tinted spectacles" soon.

 

[al78]

But presumably you still have to get the same train that everyone else is trying to get on !

Depends how far away one or two stations is, but if it is within about 10 miles you could cycle the distance.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The days when we had "one railway". No doubt someone will come along and accuse you of having "rose tinted spectacles" soon.

"Operation Picnic" as I recall. Written up in Modern Railways - another great effort by the railway , before it was fragmented and contractualised.

 

[sprunt]

London has many mainline termini and interchanges (one reason why termini can be superior to through running) to which people readily disperse. In extreme situations they can act as compass-point queuing points and can absorb an awful lot of people that way - but a single concert would probably never lead to this at more than one or two stations.

You misunderstand (or perhaps I phrased badly) my post - I travelled from London to Brighton to attend a concert there on the day of Pride and the circumstances I described were at Brighton station at about the same time Saturday's shambles was happening.

I think this is veering off topic now, and in response to the previous post straight people have to hide their sexuality 40hours a week too.

Of course they do. Men up and down the country are sitting in their offices, nervously wondering what the implications will be in their workplace if they reveal that they have a girlfriend, not a boyfriend.

 

[Taunton]

GTR blames it all on ... the BTP.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-45083414

 

[alastair]

GTR blames it all on ... the BTP.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-45083414

and yet from this quote, it does sound like BTP messed up badly?



A BTP spokesman said: "We're aware of a number of issues relating to crowd management at Brighton station following the Pride event on Saturday evening.

"As a result of the overcrowding concerns, BTP is working closely with all partners to understand the process of what happened.

"The force is holding a debrief this week to ensure an incident of this nature is not repeated."

 

[CeeJ]

I think this is veering off topic now, and in response to the previous post straight people have to hide their sexuality 40hours a week too.

What absolute nonsense.

 

[mallard]

and yet from this quote, it does sound like BTP messed up badly?

According to the article, the BTP were only responsible for people inside the station; it was Sussex Police who were preventing people entering...

 

[jon0844]

According to the article, the BTP were only responsible for people inside the station; it was Sussex Police who were preventing people entering...

So Sussex police, BTP, GTR staff, OnTrak and STM security maybe not quite working to a solid and stable plan?

 

[infobleep]

GTR blames it all on ... the BTP.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-45083414

I wonder if the Twitter staff rased the issue yesterday or were they too busy repeating the same paragraph of each over and over again, minus name change for rgs person they were responding to.

I know know if they use artificial intelligence but I suspect repeating the same message continously might be perfect for AI to handle.

 

[Warwick]

The days when we had "one railway". No doubt someone will come along and accuse you of having "rose tinted spectacles" soon.

It's the people that insist that to-day's railway is better who are wearing the spectacles.

 

[GodAtum]

One lady on twitter had a friend who bruise she chest in the crush.

 

[Ianno87]

I think this is veering off topic now, and in response to the previous post straight people have to hide their sexuality 40hours a week too.

*Slight* difference between "I can't be overtly flitatious at work with a person of the opposite gender" and "I can't let anybody know I'm gay otherwise I'll lose my job/get passed over for promotion"

For the good of mankind, we're leaving the days of the latter behind.

 

[Dr Hoo]

40 years ago.

A July Saturday in 1978. Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton etc at Blackbushe Airfield, near Fleet on the SWML. About 200,000, including self. Finished several hours late, after midnight (inevitably).

Bad old British Rail, bad old staff attitudes throughout, bad old slam door stock (all according to constant posters here). But what a return service to Waterloo. Multiple empty 12EPB, fully staffed of course, apparently holding at every signal back to Basingstoke ready to step forward to carry the crowds back to London. In, load, every door double-checked secure, dispatch, next one in. Well beyond SW division stock resources, so trains had come round from Selhurst and Slade Green to help out. Not a problem. Station staff and management ensuring everyone had tickets. The outward earlier in the day had been similarly handled. Not a single cancellation previous or next day because "stock not in the right place". (80mph in suburban stock on the Up Fast through the middle of the night with all the droplights down is a worthy competitor to the concert for lasting memories)

Where did that attitude go?

Having now had the chance to look out my October 1978 Modern Railways and re-read the 'Operation Picnic' report it is interesting to see how the current generation of rail staff involved in provision of services from Brighton (including train crew, station staff, timetablers, diagrammers, roster clerks, supervisors, controllers, signallers, etc.) are in fact worthy successors of their colleagues on the South Western Division forty years ago regardless of who they work for. Significant numbers of extra trains were organised and operated (or at least resourced) both on a planned and tactical basis.

What does seem to have changed is that whereas the clientele in 1978 appeared to show gratitude and respect ("patient and well behaved" according to Modern Railways) it would seem that too many of today's travellers are only too ready to engage in abuse, assault and vilification of rail staff on social media.

In Operation Picnic the clearance of patrons ran from 2143 on the Saturday evening (when the platform at Fleet became crowded) to 0352 when the last 12EPB apparently left for Waterloo. Perhaps if the Britney crowd had also presented themselves in an orderly fashion over more than six hours rail staff and police forces might have had an easier time. The last intending passengers were reportedly cleared from Brighton station just after 0200.

My own 'event' operating experience under BR demonstrated that even then we didn't always get it right. On 'Network Day' for the launch of Network South East on Saturday 21st June 1986 it turned out to be the 'longest day' in more ways than one. From my own involvement on the South Eastern it appeared that everybody in London had decided to go to Margate. (I am aware that other seaside resorts in the South East were also very busy.) A few reliefs had been arranged but were completely overwhelmed with no real plans for crowd control. Quite a few scratch specials were hastily rustled up from Slade Green and I had the job of squeezing tired and 'relaxed' passengers into 10-car toiletless, shabby EPBs late into the evening. Even then social decorum was starting to turn for the worse. "You expect me to travel in this after waiting for hours? I'll never go to the seaside by train again!"

Well; at least it hadn't cost them very much.

I see that the Pride organisers have now put out a rather more conciliatory release thanking various agencies and transport partners, including GTR, for helping to make their event such a success.

 

[Taunton]

Having now had the chance to look out my October 1978 Modern Railways and re-read the 'Operation Picnic' report

How interesting. Any chance you could scan it and post it.

What does seem to have changed is that whereas the clientele in 1978 appeared to show gratitude and respect ("patient and well behaved" according to Modern Railways)

Well we were

Some of the sets must have done two trips. We flashed passed a couple of what looked like fully lit 12EPBs at speed going the other way as we went along.

 

[Dr Hoo]

How interesting. Any chance you could scan it and post it.

Sorry, not got a scanner set up. Not good with IT. I am more from the 'camshaft' generation than DMI if you take my meaning. Perhaps another poster could oblige?

 

[jon0844]

Is this a picture of the beach at Brighton? Shocking!

Someone in the thread says there weren't enough bins on the beach!

https://twitter.com/samarchitects/status/1026048469272866817?s=19