HS1 - Stratford to Liverpool Street

[jobbers]

Morning all - just made the same journey I have for the last 2 years from Folkestone to Liverpool Street via HS1, leaving at Stratford International and picking up a train at Stratford regional into Liverpool Strret. Today is the first day that the bus connection service (provided by Southeastern) has not been running following completion of the Westfield shopping centre. Both barrier staff at Stratford & RPI's at Liverpool Street have advised that as this bus is no longer running, my ticket is not valid on this route any more. Can this possibly be right? My ticket is from Foklkestone West to London terminals via HS1. Obviously this has a potentially severe impact on my back pocket! The barrier staff at Stratford said they'd been told to let people through today "to stop them being abused".I've spoken to National Rail Enquiries who confirmed the ticket was valid and there has been no information from Southeastern (not unusual!) that this could be an issue. Can anybody help?

 

[First class]

If it is routed PLUS HS1 I can't see an issue (other than any potential Routeing Guide issues). NOT HIGH SPEED would not be valid IRRC.

 

[jobbers]

Certainly is via HS1

 

[radamfi]

Morning all - just made the same journey I have for the last 2 years from Folkestone to Liverpool Street via HS1, leaving at Stratford International and picking up a train at Stratford regional into Liverpool Strret. Today is the first day that the bus connection service (provided by Southeastern) has not been running following completion of the Westfield shopping centre. Both barrier staff at Stratford & RPI's at Liverpool Street have advised that as this bus is no longer running, my ticket is not valid on this route any more. Can this possibly be right? My ticket is from Foklkestone West to London terminals via HS1. Obviously this has a potentially severe impact on my back pocket! The barrier staff at Stratford said they'd been told to let people through today "to stop them being abused".I've spoken to National Rail Enquiries who confirmed the ticket was valid and there has been no information from Southeastern (not unusual!) that this could be an issue. Can anybody help?

The bus between the two stations is supposed to be running until next week, according to the posters at either end of the route. You can now walk through the shopping centre, 24 hours a day apparently. So I don't see any reason for ticket acceptance to change.

 

[ji459]

Isn't Stratford International a London Terminal? If so, you've reached your destination and the ticket wouldn't be valid beyond there. If I search for tickets from Folkestone to Liverpool Street, the only tickets that appear are to Zone U1 London.

 

[jobbers]

The posters did indeed say the service was running until September 20th but according to the Southeastern bod at Stratford he received an e mail at 00.10 this morning advising that they were going to be withdrawn a week early....

 

[radamfi]

I don't see what the bus has got to do with it. The bus replaced the walkway between International and Regional. So if the ticket was valid last week, it is valid now.

 

[Snickster]

Jobbers, i take the same route as you - Folkes West - Liv Street. Another one of our number called South Eastern yesterday and was assured that our tickets are valid on the route.
If you managed the journey in this morning, what happened at the Stratford barriers today? (I got to Folkes West then decided to work from home).

 

[bb21]

Both barrier staff at Stratford & RPI's at Liverpool Street have advised that as this bus is no longer running, my ticket is not valid on this route any more. Can this possibly be right?

Rubbish! How can the omission of a bus link change routeing permissions? The bus link is simply replaced by walking.

If this is what staff have been advising passengers, then a strongly-worded letter needs to be sent to NXEA requesting that they get their training in order. Unfortunately NXEA have a history of giving clueless answers to previous enquiries so I will not be surprised if that is how their staff have been briefed.

My ticket is from Foklkestone West to London terminals via HS1. Obviously this has a potentially severe impact on my back pocket! The barrier staff at Stratford said they'd been told to let people through today "to stop them being abused".I've spoken to National Rail Enquiries who confirmed the ticket was valid and there has been no information from Southeastern (not unusual!) that this could be an issue. Can anybody help?

The shortest route and those no more than 3 miles longer are always permitted.

The shortest route between Folkestone West and a London Terminal is Folkestone West - Ashford International - (High Speed Line) - Ebbsfleet International - (Walk) - Northfleet - Dartford - Bexleyheath - Lewisham - New Cross - London Bridge. According to National Rail Timetable, the distance between Folkestone West and Ashford International is 13.25 miles, between Ashford International and Ebbsfleet International along HS1 is 33.25, between Northfleet and Dartford is 4.75 and between Dartford and London Bridge using the route above is 15.25, totalling 66.5 miles.

The route between Folkestone West and Liverpool Street via HS1 and changing at Stratford is calculated as follows: Folkestone West - Stratford International - 63.25 miles, Stratford London - Liverpool Street - 4 miles, total - 67.25 miles.

The route into Liverpool Street is less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, and the routeing on your ticket does not forbid the use of HS1. This draws me to the conclusion that going into Liverpool Street the way you have done for the last two years is absolutely valid.

Isn't Stratford International a London Terminal? If so, you've reached your destination and the ticket wouldn't be valid beyond there. If I search for tickets from Folkestone to Liverpool Street, the only tickets that appear are to Zone U1 London.

Err, no! Stratford International is not a London Terminal for ticketing purposes. See this.

 

[jobbers]

Snickster - If you were there to catch the 05.58 we probabaly had a chat! THe staff at Stratford did let me through although they did say they were instructed to do so today "to prevent them being abused"!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Folkstone-Stratford-Liverpool Street is not shown in the Routeing Guide (from either Ashford or Dover), so unless it is the shortest route, it is not valid.

 

[radamfi]

Folkstone-Stratford-Liverpool Street is not shown in the Routeing Guide (from either Ashford or Dover), so unless it is the shortest route, it is not valid.

I presume by 'shortest' you are including 'shortest + 3 miles'?

 

[MikeWh]

bb21 is suggesting that it might be considered less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. Also, on the National Rail (the definitive source of rail information) website there is a London and the South East map which shows the entire route from Folkestone to London Liverpool Street. Interestingly, Stratford is shown as one station.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I presume by 'shortest' you are including 'shortest + 3 miles'?

The shortest route by a sheduled service or a route within three miles of it according to the Great Britain National Rail Timetable. (Bearing in mind we are talkiing about 'London Terminals').

 

[bb21]

The shortest route by a sheduled service or a route within three miles of it according to the Great Britain National Rail Timetable. (Bearing in mind we are talkiing about 'London Terminals').

I used data from the eNRT.

I have also computed the shortest route to a London Terminal I can see. The route the OP uses to Liverpool Street is no more than 3 miles longer.

I doubt there is a shorter route as I have looked at, what I believe to be, all possibilities.

I agree that it is not a mapped route and no easements exist.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well as I currently have no access to that data I can only take your word for it atm.

 

[jobbers]

Just spoken to a very helpful man at South Eastern who has confirmed the ticket IS valid and head office have been in touch with TFL etc and sorted this. He said "it obviously depends on how effective their communication with their frontline staff is as to whether this filters through for your return journey or not", which I found quite amusing bearing in mind how good South Easterns comms are!!!

 

[dz629]

I had the same issue with my Gravesend to London Terminals ticket. I was stopped at the new entrance to Stratford regional at Westfield on Tuesday morning. The lady at the barriers didn't know that the ticket was valid to Liverpool Street. I went back to Stratford International and spoke to a Southeastern ticket inspecting manager. He confirmed the validity. He was happy to walk with me back to Stratford regional and explain the tube and National Express staff the validity. Since than I never had issue. My understanding is that validity of the ticket is through an agreement between Southeastern and national express as opposed to the shortest route rule.

 

[jon0844]

Agreements like this are like a ticking time bomb.

I remember when Wagn had said they'd allow the combination of a Hatfield-Hadley Wood ticket and a Z1-6 TC on trains that didn't stop at Hadley Wood. That was an additional benefit over the conditions of carriage.

FCC appeared to be happy to honour that for some time, until one day new orders had come down to clamp down on things like this.

I'd long lost the letter I carried to give permission (along with one about being able to sit in first on a declassified service - although luckily that's a rule that's easier to prove!) so I had to change my tickets. Now so many people have left FCC, there was nobody to even recall such permission and they've decided to stick with the rules as per the manual.

Ideally get a letter, on headed paper, with a real signature and carry a copy with you - or you may find that in a few weeks (different staff etc) you have to start all over.

 

[MikeWh]

Taking it from Gravesend makes shortest route calculations even easier. Gravesend to London Bridge via Bexleyheath is the shortest route at 22 miles. Gravesend to Liverpool Street via Stratford is 22.75 miles. I don't think SET and NXEA need to have an agreement, it should be a valid route as long as the ticket allows travel on HS1.

I've just had a chat with SET CS and this is the hottest topic in the call centre at the moment. They've given me a name to write to to find out more about the basis that the tickets are valid, but certainly at the moment there have been emails at the highest levels between SET and NXEA confirming that the route is definitely valid.

 

[dz629]

I am not an expert. My understand is that Stratford Regional and Stratford International stations are seperate stations. And apperantly this complicates the shourtest route rule for the HS1 users to Liverpool Street. This is only through talking to various different people from SouthEastren, National Express, Underground and London Travel Watch.

 

[island]

Sounds like a case of walking between stations, which has always been allowed (and is zero distance).

 

[dz629]

I don't know what role London Travel Watch plays. This is what they think about the matter:

Ref. No: 217068

Thank you for your email.

Together with my Director, we have made further enquiries. We’ve found that Southeastern passengers have been allowed to use the National Express East Anglia trains as a result of a local agreement between the train companies. This isn’t in the routing guide, nor has it been formalized between the two companies. Neither has any arrangement been made with Transport for London for Southeastern tickets to be used on the underground.

In light of your comments this is now being looked into. However, I should advise that it’s possible that by wanting to formalize the agreement between Southeastern, National Express East Anglia and Transport for London that no agreement will be reached. The reason for this it will be a commercial decision, with each company wanting a company a share of the revenue from the ticket.

The train companies may take some time to reach an agreement. But, if we hear anything from them I’ll let you know.

Yours sincerely


[email protected]

 

[Orange Box]

Either way the local agreement (for which NX recieve no revenue) only runs until the end of the NXEA franchise, there is no requirement for the new franchise to carry it forward.

 

[embers25]

As it passes the routeing guide rule for shortest route+3miles the mapped permitted routes are irrelevant and London Travel Watch should not be quoting the routing guide if they don't know that!

Also having just looked St Panras-Stratford I-Stratford-Maryland passes the shortest route + 3 miles rule but I can guarentee southeastern will refuse it!

 

[A60K]

It can't be a local agreement, simply because it is a basic principle of the Routeing Guide that the shortest route plus three miles is valid - whether or not NXEA receive anything from the settlement system is irrelevant and that's an internal industry problem to resolve. If anything it is local ignorance, and if anyone is penalised for travelling on a valid route they should be refunded.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As it passes the routeing guide rule for shortest route+3miles the mapped permitted routes are irrelevant and London Travel Watch should not be quoting the routing guide if they don't know that!

Also having just looked St Panras-Stratford I-Stratford-Cambridge passes the shortest route + 3 miles rule but I can guarentee southeastern will refuse it!

I'm pretty sure I read in the FRPP that tickets to London Terminals are not valid on HS1 unless routed as such, or accompanied by a HS1 upgrade. I'll have a check tomorrow at work.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm pretty sure I read in the FRPP that tickets to London Terminals are not valid on HS1 unless routed as such, or accompanied by a HS1 upgrade. I'll have a check tomorrow at work.

Surely they'd have to be routed as "Not HS1" to indicate that they werent valid - as I believe many SE-priced tickets are?

 

[dz629]

If this validity is through the shourtest route rule, it opens up the question about validity on the tube through dual availability of LU/NR tickets between Stratford and Liverpool St discussed here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38131&page=2

 

[thedbdiboy]

This issue has been raised with NXEA who have undertaken to rebrief staff.
If it was valid before when the bus link ran, it certainly still is now that you can interchange directly via Westfield!