HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[JohnB57]

And those services continue to Sheffield, so having the station at Meadowhall doesn't benefit you in any way unless you intend to drive to Meadowhall instead of using your local station encouraging people to make longer car journeys isn't really what HS2 is about.

There's a bigger reason not to do the first leg by train - the fact it takes almost an hour.

HS2 is "about" all sorts of things, including encouraging people out of long car journeys. A city centre station would have the opposite effect.

 

[rebmcr]

I made this posting on 28th December 2012 from information passed on to me "from a source", which led to criticism of me by those who were at pains to state the route would be a continuation onwards through Manchester in a northerly direction.

That would be a... silly... assumption even for someone not in the know.

 

[pemma]

Nora Batty International Exchange ?......

Seriously though, Homfirth station was originally opened on 1st July 1850 by the Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction Railway, which became part of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. It was a terminal station and was closed to passengers on 2nd November 1959.

There is a serious point relating from that. 14 years after the station closed the town became famous for Last of the Summer Wine so more people visited it.

Although, Holmfirth wasn't the only location used. Marsden and Jackson Bridge both featured as well as other locations.

 

[WatcherZero]

I made this posting on 28th December 2012 from information passed on to me "from a source", which led to criticism of me by those who were at pains to state the route would be a continuation onwards through Manchester in a northerly direction.

A through station at Manchester Victoria made the shortlist according to the docs, though it wasnt one of the options presented to Government.

 

[Wath Yard]

HS2 is "about" all sorts of things, including encouraging people out of long car journeys. A city centre station would have the opposite effect.

Having services going to places that people actually work or live in encourages people to drive? That's a novel argument.

 

[starrymarkb]

I presume the plan for stations is something like this

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.215,3.993889&spn=0.01,0.01&t=h&q=49.215,3.993889

Reims has Terminating TGVs using the Classic Station with others using the TGV Parkway Station on the edge of the city. Trams and Regional Trains link to the city centre

 

[steamdrivenand]

I didn't know how "sarcastically" to take your comment

For a lot of the Sheffield "city region", Meadowhall is as good as Midland. For me, it's the far side of the city, but then I'd have to get on a bus/tram to get into town anyway, so what matters is the marginal time taken to get a couple of miles further (compared against the "hour" saving in time to London).

It's not as if Sheffield Midland is that "central" for most of the city centre anyway - maybe we'll see the FreeBee extended to Meadowhall...

I think that's a sensible view tbtc. As has been said here before getting the high speed line into Sheffield centre and shoehorning in the required 400m long platforms is a really big ask. Fitting it beside the M1 with good links towards the city centre plus the rest of the local region makes sense. There seems to be a sort of macho desire for a city centre station, but I bet if they'd planned one there'd be lots of people suggesting a Parkway station to avoid, noise, pollution, neighbourhood destruction etc. And as I keep saying some high speed trains may run into Sheffield using Compatible stock. Then Sheffield has the best of both.
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Having services going to places that people actually work or live in encourages people to drive? That's a novel argument.

A large proportion of people who use inter city trains travel by all sorts of means to start the inter city part of their journey. Some use cars which can be a nightmare in a city centre location, some use local trains, some trams, some bus, some taxis, some bikes and some walk. I suspect that on any inter city train there are far less people who walk than travel by other means. A Parkway station with good links (and Meadowhalls couldn't really be bettered) provides better access for cars and probably just as good for most of the other forms of travel. The only people who may be put out are those on foot, but they're probably replaced by locals on foot from the Meadowhall area. So it's really a non-issue.
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I presume the plan for stations is something like this

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.215,3.993889&spn=0.01,0.01&t=h&q=49.215,3.993889

Reims has Terminating TGVs using the Classic Station with others using the TGV Parkway Station on the edge of the city. Trams and Regional Trains link to the city centre

Like Reims but with more trees. The DfT are adamant that there'll be loads of trees. Of course then we'll have leaves on the line problems in Autumn :roll:

 

[Metrailway]

... And as I keep saying some high speed trains may run into Sheffield using Compatible stock. Then Sheffield has the best of both.

I've only had a quick look at the maps on the DfT website but there seems to be no spur from HS2 to Sheffield (Midland), so it seems there won't be classic compatible stock running from HS2 into Sheffield (Midland).

 

[MK Tom]

It does make sense, I just got a bit confused with the maps - it's the Manchester/Scotland that crosses the WCML between Lichfield and Rugeley. A south-facing curve there would enable services from the WCML to use HS2 to the North West and Scotland. The Leeds line does also cross the WCML further down so a curve there would enable those connections too.

Now that the forum's working again (seemed to vanish for a few hours) I'll elaborate insofar as the chord north of Lichfield I propose would allow accelerated services from WCML south stations to Manchester, Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh. A separate chord where the Leeds line crosses the WCML, if viable, would allow links from WCML south stations to Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle. Both would be inexpensive compared with the overall cost of HS2 and would bring massive economic benefit to the growth areas of MK and Northampton as well as bypassed cities and major towns like Coventry, Watford and Tamworth.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've only had a quick look at the maps on the DfT website but there seems to be no spur from HS2 to Sheffield (Midland), so it seems there won't be classic compatible stock running from HS2 into Sheffield (Midland).

They show no junctions in the Sheffield area at all. On the basis that the corrresponding drawings for the Crewe area DO show details of grade separated junctions north and south of that station, I'd be tending to the same view, ie there being no intention to connect to Sheffield Midland...

 

[beatbox]

HS2. Newcastle to London in 2 hours 18 minutes !
I seem to remember the Tyne Tees Pullman on the 27/09/1987 using diesel power did 2 hours 19 minutes.
50 years of progress and billions of pounds of tax payers money for 1 minute !!!

 

[Wath Yard]

This document shows the proposed HS2 and associated services.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2012_-explanation-of-the-service-patterns.pdf

Definitely no HS2 services into Sheffield city centre.

 

[PR1Berske]

HS2. Newcastle to London in 2 hours 18 minutes !
I seem to remember the Tyne Tees Pullman on the 27/09/1987 using diesel power did 2 hours 19 minutes.
50 years of progress and billions of pounds of tax payers money for 1 minute !!!

Because, as I keep reminding myself, we are British. We are small c conservative, we are reactionary, we are against modernity, we are Luddites. Our parents were brought up by Victorian models passed on as late as 1945 and they taught us in the same means.

We are a nation which refused to accept its place amongst the modern age. While we consider, as has been questioned this very day in Parliament, whether a station should be built in Stoke or Derby, the rest of Europe carry on advancing infrastructure at great means, and China builds entire cities within six months.

I am reminded by slow coach schemes like this why I could never be nationalistic or "proud" of being British. We are such a backward looking, old fashioned, out-dated, outmoded isolationist island, and apparently so proud of being so, that I can't possibly feel particularly good about the faith attached to the national flag or its other symbols and institutions.

Your concern about the time "saving" is another fine and reasonable example of the manner in which this country merrily carries on in the past whilst other country carries on at 100x speed.

I support HS2 as an absolutely vital piece of infrastructure spending. But the fact that it won't be built until 2030 should be a national joke. It should be completed NOW having been started ten or so years previously.

 

[Francis]

Looking at the northern ends of both HS2 branches, you can see how they are both poised for extension towards Newcastle or Scotland (or both).

On the west side, the line at Lowton (Lancs) swings west to join the WCML at Bamfurlong, but could easily be extended up the old CLC line (Wigan Central) and then onto the Whelley loop (all lifted now) to avoid Wigan and run parallel to the WCML. Then the next question is how to avoid Preston - tracking the M6 might be easiest.

On the east side at Church Fenton, rather than the sharp turn east towards York, one can envisage a line up past Barwick in Elmet and Wetherby to join the ECML nearer to Thirsk.

On the whole the HS2 north plans look pretty sensible. They avoid urban areas - minimal demolition - and their environmental impact will be only a small fraction of the M6, the M40 and M1.

By freeing up the WCML south of Tamworth first, and then along the Trent Valley, the intermediate stations will get a much better service than they do now.

However, I still think there should be an offer of a Chilterns Parkway somewhere near High Wycombe, a Coventry South stop, maybe Leics West (near Ashby-de-la-Zouch), Mansfield and maybe Barnsley East. Just one semi-fast per hour could serve these stations and make a big difference to the localities. It might also buy off some of the local resistance.

 

[MK Tom]

By freeing up the WCML south of Tamworth first, and then along the Trent Valley, the intermediate stations will get a much better service than they do now.
.

Do they though? Looking at the link on the previous page, MK gets additional stops at Watford on several Euston services, Liverpool services that run via Birmingham giving slower journey times than changing at Crewe does at present and Glasgow/Edinburgh services that run via Manchester, also slower than changing at Crewe at present. I'm using MK as an example not because I live here but because it's the largest and busiest intermediate WCML stop discounting Coventry. With a simple chord at the WCML/HS2 junction north of Lichfield, services could run from WCML stations to Manchester and Glasgow in much less time. The only benefits WCML stops seem to get from HS2 is massively increased frequencies to London, which is good but does not help the local economy the way being linked into a proper national network would, which MK and Coventry both should be.

 

[GooGav]

I don't think you should be too worried in Goostrey as I suspect they'll slip the line between Holmes Chapel and M6. Maybe they'll then have to take a v wide arc around Tatton and bring the line in under the Airport. That would be really pandering to Mr Osborne and his voters.

Thank you, Steamdrivenand, for putting my mind at rest, and how right you were! Very sad for those communities less fortunate though.

 

[brianthegiant]

This document shows the proposed HS2 and associated services.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2012_-explanation-of-the-service-patterns.pdf

Definitely no HS2 services into Sheffield city centre.

Is there any junction linking HS2 with the MML? I couldn't see one anywhere near Toton, HS2 just flies over Trent Junction.

Trent Jn would have been difficult, but I would have thought there is an argument for linking with the MML somewhere, enabling diversionary routes & other route options for classic compatibles.

 

[JohnB57]

Having services going to places that people actually work or live in encourages people to drive? That's a novel argument.

Unless you know something that the rest of us don't and Sheffield is losing its existing rail services when HS2 opens, I don't understand your point. HS2 is not primarily designed for people to commute to work in the city centre. It's designed for fast inter-regional transport.

The vast majority of people who work in the centre of Sheffield will live relatively nearby and travel in by local train, bus, tram or car. Those traveling on HS from London or Birmingham are more likely to be visiting businesses outside the city and have to interchange to complete the journey anyway.

Perhaps you could expand on your views in the spirit of friendly debate and exclude the mildly condescending tone?

 

[brianthegiant]

What is the likelihood of there being some sort of light rail / tram link from the station at Toton to East Midlands Airport?

I think it's very highly likely the Tram will be extended into Erewash with a stop at the HS2 Toton station (already being talked about by local politicians). That part only needs about a mile of new track from the Toton park & ride. I imagine there would be a good business case to take it as far as Long Eaton, maybe Sawley due to large centres of population and reatil outlets. They seem to be keen on terminating NET lines at park & rides on trunk roads... which would take us to the A50/M1 J24, once you've gone that far I suppose you might as well carry on to Castle Donington & the airport, but I'm not sure of the business case of this part. Might depend on how many years of workplace parking levy are being used to finance the current Net phase 2 works.

The other angle on this is that the Airport might at present join the anti crowd, since HS2-Toton is yet another rail station in the East Midlands that isn't at the airport. Also that the HS2 route will take up land at the edges of the airport which would otherwise have been developed as commercial property aimed at companies linked to the airport.

I could see how there might be some momentum for Tram to the airport to keep the airport operator content. A Tram airport stop might be more popular than current bus routes, due to reduced journey times, furthermore adding the airport on the network gives the Tram more credibility as serving all the headline destinations around Nottingham.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I heard a comment made in a radio programme that the route revealed today was only the first submission in a very long period of consultation processes. Any thoughts on that ?

 

[RYS]

I heard a comment made in a radio programme that the route revealed today was only the first submission in a very long period of consultation processes. Any thoughts on that ?

This consultation process is the reason we will all be 20 years older before we get to use this thing. They've announced today where they are going to build it, so why not just get the diggers out tomorrow and get building?

 

[steamdrivenand]

HS2. Newcastle to London in 2 hours 18 minutes !
I seem to remember the Tyne Tees Pullman on the 27/09/1987 using diesel power did 2 hours 19 minutes.
50 years of progress and billions of pounds of tax payers money for 1 minute !!!

I recall reading an old book publicising the Metropolitan Line, written circa 1920 I believe and the journey times say Amersham to Baker St were virtually identical using steam to those provided by todays electric trains. That's nearly a century ago and no improvement in speed.
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Thank you, Steamdrivenand, for putting my mind at rest, and how right you were! Very sad for those communities less fortunate though.

It wasn't quite as I described it but fairly close.

 

[PR1Berske]

This consultation process is the reason we will all be 20 years older before we get to use this thing. They've announced today where they are going to build it, so why not just get the diggers out tomorrow and get building?

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the statement I gave some moments ago

There is a judicial review in the name of the Conservative leader of Buckinghamshire council, who has stated his intention to ensure Conservative councillors who are intending to fight the May 2013 County Council elections join him in supporting his bid.

There will be countless changes between now and next year, when the consultation is set to finish, in addition to countless changes every year from 2014 to 2030 and beyond. I refer you to a quote from today's Times from a resident of Alderley Edge who said "there won't be an inch of this built without complaint."

This being Britain, I suggest 2030 is very much an early guess rather than a firm ETA.

Crossrail, btw, seems to have been got on with without much delay, underlining my view that investment in the South is always hurried up, whilst anything to the north is always suspended until the very last moment, if indeed it's started at all.

 

[ModChod]

This consultation process is the reason we will all be 20 years older before we get to use this thing. They've announced today where they are going to build it, so why not just get the diggers out tomorrow and get building?

Quite. One of the main reasons people seem to have against it, is the uncertainty of not knowing how close it will come to your property, or if you will need to sell up and move. Just compulsory purchase the land and build it I say.

 

[steamdrivenand]

This consultation process is the reason we will all be 20 years older before we get to use this thing. They've announced today where they are going to build it, so why not just get the diggers out tomorrow and get building?

Totally agree but they've got to keep all the lawyers, conservation and environmental consultants, in business somehow.

It's odd because the complainers during consultation processes love to have their say, but if the result goes against them they rubbish the process and take that to court and so it goes on. Most know they'll get absolutely nowhere. but they still waste millions doing it and then complain at the cost of the project and the time it's taken. :roll:

 

[Wath Yard]

Unless you know something that the rest of us don't and Sheffield is losing its existing rail services when HS2 opens, I don't understand your point. HS2 is not primarily designed for people to commute to work in the city centre. It's designed for fast inter-regional transport.

The vast majority of people who work in the centre of Sheffield will live relatively nearby and travel in by local train, bus, tram or car. Those traveling on HS from London or Birmingham are more likely to be visiting businesses outside the city and have to interchange to complete the journey anyway.

Perhaps you could expand on your views in the spirit of friendly debate and exclude the mildly condescending tone?

Sheffield City Council wanted an HS2 station in Sheffield city centre. It came to the conclusion that a city centre station would produce far greater benefits than one at Meadowhall. Sheffield is also by far the largest city in the area, so an argument that a station at Meadowhall may be of more benefit to Rotherham or Barnsley is also not really very meaningful.

I can't respond in a reasonable way to the rest of your points as they are not reasonable points. How is saying Sheffield will still retain it's current services proving that Sheffield will benefit from HS2?

 

[Smudger105e]

Any comments now the route has been published?

 

[daniel3982]

Indeed, saying "but it will benefit Barnsley and Rotherham better than a central station", why not apply that to Leeds and build a station somewhere between Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford like the White Rose Centre (ah yes, because that would be equally absurd).

 

[stuartmoss]

In terms of building the legs of HS2, London - Birmingham, Birmingham - Leeds, and Birmingham - Manchester. Will they build from South to North or both ends at once working inwards, or will construction take place at multiple locations simultaneously? What is the likely scenario?

 

[tbtc]

It was only a few days ago that I was seeing people confidently predicting on other websites that the South Yorkshire station would be Tinsley Marshelling Yard.

In comparison, the station at Meadowhall is going to be very convenient for local trains, trams, frequent buses, motorists - I'm pleasantly surprised at how close it's going to be to the current platforms at Meadowhall.

Hopefully in the next twenty years we'll see extensions of the Supertram to link more of the area to where the HS2 station will be.

I think that's a sensible view tbtc. As has been said here before getting the high speed line into Sheffield centre and shoehorning in the required 400m long platforms is a really big ask. Fitting it beside the M1 with good links towards the city centre plus the rest of the local region makes sense. There seems to be a sort of macho desire for a city centre station, but I bet if they'd planned one there'd be lots of people suggesting a Parkway station to avoid, noise, pollution, neighbourhood destruction etc

Agreed.

If the spin being put on it locally is true and this will see Sheffield get it's first proper "local" train service (linking Dore/Totley to Meadowhall, potentially reopening stations at Millhouses etc) to link more of the city to the new HS2 station then the net result could be very good for the city.

HS2. Newcastle to London in 2 hours 18 minutes !
I seem to remember the Tyne Tees Pullman on the 27/09/1987 using diesel power did 2 hours 19 minutes.
50 years of progress and billions of pounds of tax payers money for 1 minute !!!

So your benchmark is a one-off speeding up of a service on a much quieter ECML (no relation to the busy railway of today)?

Sheffield City Council wanted an HS2 station in Sheffield city centre. It came to the conclusion that a city centre station would produce far greater benefits than one at Meadowhall. Sheffield is also by far the largest city in the area, so an argument that a station at Meadowhall may be of more benefit to Rotherham or Barnsley is also not really very meaningful

Obviously Sheffield City Council would want an HS2 station in Sheffield city centre - I'm sure Nottingham City Council wanted an HS2 station in Nottingham City Centre and I'm sure that Coventry City Council would have wanted an HS2 station... however Sheffield wouldn't justify diverting/slowing down HS2 to try to serve Midland Station.

Indeed, saying "but it will benefit Barnsley and Rotherham better than a central station", why not apply that to Leeds and build a station somewhere between Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford like the White Rose Centre (ah yes, because that would be equally absurd).

Leeds is a much bigger railhead for London than Sheffield will ever be. Compare the financial sector in the two cities. Much as I prefer Sheffield to Leeds, I've got to accept that they can justify a city centre HS2 station whilst Sheffield has a much weaker case.