As far as I know nobody said it would be Sheffield city centre only. I think Ingalls also mentioned a parkway station to serve other towns in the area.
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JohnB57
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Having campaigned for a city centre station, Sheffield surely can't expect one at Meadowhall as well? That's just greedy.
If the line is built east of Rotherham, the likelihood is that the line and the proposed Wakefield/Barnsley Parkway station would be to the east of those locations, which makes it, together with the absence of one at Meadowhall, no value at all for a large chunk of the Huddersfield/Penistone/Sheffield corridor.
If the line is built east of Rotherham, the likelihood is that the line and the proposed Wakefield/Barnsley Parkway station would be to the east of those locations, which makes it, together with the absence of one at Meadowhall, no value at all for a large chunk of the Huddersfield/Penistone/Sheffield corridor.
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deltic
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Looks like a big announcement on HS2 in Sheffield is coming out tomorrow judging by Sheffield Star front page https://twitter.com/SheffieldStar/status/750780401543700480/photo/1
JohnB57
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Could it be a case of winning the battle but losing the war?
HSTEd
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Well there goes the chance of any significant regular services beyond a token london train.
HSTEd
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And that's that - no significant HS2 services to Sheffield from points north.
Even if they build that northern connection - which they won't, since it would cost most of that supposed billion pound saving, there is no real capacity in the existing station. For the same reason there will be no parkway station.
It will be lucky to get 2 trains an hour from London and that will be it.
Even if they build that northern connection - which they won't, since it would cost most of that supposed billion pound saving, there is no real capacity in the existing station. For the same reason there will be no parkway station.
It will be lucky to get 2 trains an hour from London and that will be it.
WatcherZero
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Reading the report.
South Yorkshire authorities have failed to come to the consensus Higgins hoped for which was achieved at Crewe/Stoke and Leeds. Because the authorities haven't achieved a compromise on their own he recommends one will have to be forced upon them. Several factors determine this compromise.
1. There are four times as many passengers for Leeds/York/Newcastle than South Yorkshire therefore any alteration in journey time must weigh in their favour over Sheffield's.
2. HS2 will cut 45 minutes from current 2 hour South Yorkshire journey times but due to the geography no one station can serve Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham and Doncaster equally. So which location achieves the best balance?
3. Consider wider connectivity and hub status. HS3 proposes 6 services an hour between Sheffield and Leeds saving 10 minutes on even the fastest service today.
4. Sheffield and Meadowhall are both difficult terrain; hilly, prone to floods with lots of industrial buildings and buildings of historical significance requiring protecting.
5. Cost, any increase in spend in Sheffield would have to be balanced by cuts elsewhere and the proposals for Sheffield are extremely expensive.
Taking these five factors in to account during a rethink has produced an alternate strategy. Two classic compatible trains an hour in to Sheffield meanwhile the HS2 main line will be diverted away from the difficult and built up terrain of Meadowhall in to a route parallel to the M18. This saves money and produces a 1-5 minute journey saving for Leeds and other points north.
Doncaster would benefit from freed up capacity on the existing East Coast, Barnsley, Rotherham and Meadowhall could benefit from classic compatible trains extending beyond Sheffield and those who already need to change in Sheffield Midland. Changing in Sheffield could still offer a 45 minute journey saving for Barnsley.
A study should be undertaken in to a possibility of a parkway station on the M18 to serve South Yorkshire.
Why each station route option was rejected.
Meadowhall; Already a congested area and station would add more congestion which M1 would not be able to cope with. Meadowhall would also not benefit to or from HS3. All the demand is non-local.
Sheffield Midland Main line; Would serve local demand but the station is too small requiring a new one to be built or loss of historical features of existing one, is on a flood plain, would require new lines through built up areas which would cost an extra £2bn.
Sheffield Victoria Main line; Most of same advantages and disadvantages as Midland however would be 5km longer and with a significantly tight curve incurring a three minute time penalty for stopping trains and 2 minutes for through trains. No existing rail services and 13 minute walk from Midland station. To achieve connectivity a new local station would have to be built 7 minutes walk away at a cost of £50m. Because platforms would be on a curve the station would be 100m wide incurring significant land take. 7 km of existing local rail lines would have to be realigned. The option would altogether cost an extra £700m.
Classic route option would have a high speed spur to the Classic line from the junction of the M1 and A38 approx. half way to Chesterfield. As passing through the option exists for the services to stop in Chesterfield. London to Sheffield journey time would be 83 minutes on services that stop in Chesterfield and 79 minutes on those that do not from the existing 120 minutes. Services could also run on to Barnsley, Meadowhall and Rotherham.
Possibility exists and is being studied by Transport for the North of a southern facing HS2 to Sheffield classic line connection at Thurnscoe allowing Leeds-Sheffield HS3 services run Leeds HS2-Thurnscoe junction-Rotherham classic-Sheffield Midland with a sub 30 minute journey time. Approx 50% of route miles would be HS2 and 50% classic line.
Only Doncaster would be worse off from these changes from Meadowhall to Midland and following M18 which would save £1bn.
South Yorkshire authorities have failed to come to the consensus Higgins hoped for which was achieved at Crewe/Stoke and Leeds. Because the authorities haven't achieved a compromise on their own he recommends one will have to be forced upon them. Several factors determine this compromise.
1. There are four times as many passengers for Leeds/York/Newcastle than South Yorkshire therefore any alteration in journey time must weigh in their favour over Sheffield's.
2. HS2 will cut 45 minutes from current 2 hour South Yorkshire journey times but due to the geography no one station can serve Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham and Doncaster equally. So which location achieves the best balance?
3. Consider wider connectivity and hub status. HS3 proposes 6 services an hour between Sheffield and Leeds saving 10 minutes on even the fastest service today.
4. Sheffield and Meadowhall are both difficult terrain; hilly, prone to floods with lots of industrial buildings and buildings of historical significance requiring protecting.
5. Cost, any increase in spend in Sheffield would have to be balanced by cuts elsewhere and the proposals for Sheffield are extremely expensive.
Taking these five factors in to account during a rethink has produced an alternate strategy. Two classic compatible trains an hour in to Sheffield meanwhile the HS2 main line will be diverted away from the difficult and built up terrain of Meadowhall in to a route parallel to the M18. This saves money and produces a 1-5 minute journey saving for Leeds and other points north.
Doncaster would benefit from freed up capacity on the existing East Coast, Barnsley, Rotherham and Meadowhall could benefit from classic compatible trains extending beyond Sheffield and those who already need to change in Sheffield Midland. Changing in Sheffield could still offer a 45 minute journey saving for Barnsley.
A study should be undertaken in to a possibility of a parkway station on the M18 to serve South Yorkshire.
Why each station route option was rejected.
Meadowhall; Already a congested area and station would add more congestion which M1 would not be able to cope with. Meadowhall would also not benefit to or from HS3. All the demand is non-local.
Sheffield Midland Main line; Would serve local demand but the station is too small requiring a new one to be built or loss of historical features of existing one, is on a flood plain, would require new lines through built up areas which would cost an extra £2bn.
Sheffield Victoria Main line; Most of same advantages and disadvantages as Midland however would be 5km longer and with a significantly tight curve incurring a three minute time penalty for stopping trains and 2 minutes for through trains. No existing rail services and 13 minute walk from Midland station. To achieve connectivity a new local station would have to be built 7 minutes walk away at a cost of £50m. Because platforms would be on a curve the station would be 100m wide incurring significant land take. 7 km of existing local rail lines would have to be realigned. The option would altogether cost an extra £700m.
Classic route option would have a high speed spur to the Classic line from the junction of the M1 and A38 approx. half way to Chesterfield. As passing through the option exists for the services to stop in Chesterfield. London to Sheffield journey time would be 83 minutes on services that stop in Chesterfield and 79 minutes on those that do not from the existing 120 minutes. Services could also run on to Barnsley, Meadowhall and Rotherham.
Possibility exists and is being studied by Transport for the North of a southern facing HS2 to Sheffield classic line connection at Thurnscoe allowing Leeds-Sheffield HS3 services run Leeds HS2-Thurnscoe junction-Rotherham classic-Sheffield Midland with a sub 30 minute journey time. Approx 50% of route miles would be HS2 and 50% classic line.
Only Doncaster would be worse off from these changes from Meadowhall to Midland and following M18 which would save £1bn.
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Harpers Tate
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(Peers into crystal ball and sees....)
HS2 now racing up the more easterly alignment, well away from Sheffield, and then as the project proceeds beyond a point where that route might be changed, a cost review sees the branch line onto classic rail and Sheffield (along with any attendant improvements in capacity for Midland) postponed indefinitely.
So we end up alighting at a Parkway station somewhere near Doncaster and then getting on to an ageing First double-decker for the 60 minute crawl into Sheffield.....until the subsidy money runs out and the bus service is cancelled.
HS2 now racing up the more easterly alignment, well away from Sheffield, and then as the project proceeds beyond a point where that route might be changed, a cost review sees the branch line onto classic rail and Sheffield (along with any attendant improvements in capacity for Midland) postponed indefinitely.
So we end up alighting at a Parkway station somewhere near Doncaster and then getting on to an ageing First double-decker for the 60 minute crawl into Sheffield.....until the subsidy money runs out and the bus service is cancelled.
YorkshireBear
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...........
Don't think you will see much of that 1 billion after you have modified sheffield midland and its approaches to take the capacity required for minimum 2tph to London. 2tph to East Midlands and probably onto St Pancras, extra Cross Country trains, longer local trains.
Good work people.
Don't think you will see much of that 1 billion after you have modified sheffield midland and its approaches to take the capacity required for minimum 2tph to London. 2tph to East Midlands and probably onto St Pancras, extra Cross Country trains, longer local trains.
Good work people.
Altnabreac
Established Member
So I've tried to read the report with an open mind and look at both the positive and negative consequences.
Here's my thoughts.
Positives:
Negatives:
Overall I think it is probably a net positive change if commitments can be secured to ensure that HS2 trains run on from Sheffield Midland to Rotherham, Medowhall, Barnsley and Wakefield.
As far as Northern Powerhouse Rail is concerned it is a better solution for improving Leeds - Sheffield journey times but I suspect makes a Woodhead Base Tunnel less likely to happen and so makes reducing Sheffield - Manchester journey times more difficult.
Here's my thoughts.
Positives:
- Direct fast services from Sheffield Midland to London via HS2 are a good thing. The new alignment allows this.
- The southern connection is proposed at Clay Cross / Tibshelf. This is further north than it might have been (especially if Toton were used) and minimises the journey on classic route for Sheffield passengers.
- Chesterfield can have direct services to London via HS2.
- Classic compatible services can run through Sheffield to serve Meadowhall, Rotherham, Wakefield, Barnsley, Doncaster etc.
- Faster journey times from London to Leeds / Newcastle etc.
- Possible to include a loop option at South Kirby to help improve Sheffield - Leeds journey times for NPR.
- Possible to include a parkway station although report seems much more lukewarm on this than local politicians quotes in the press release suggest.
Negatives:
- Slower headline journey times to South Yorkshire than Meadowhall option.
- Probably less stops at Sheffield than Meadowhall option. "up to 2 trains per hour" mentioned. No detail given but 1tph London and 1tph Birmingham seems a likely outcome.
- Harder to connect a Woodhead Base Tunnel type solution for Northern Powerhouse Rail into the HS2 network (although not impossible).
Overall I think it is probably a net positive change if commitments can be secured to ensure that HS2 trains run on from Sheffield Midland to Rotherham, Medowhall, Barnsley and Wakefield.
As far as Northern Powerhouse Rail is concerned it is a better solution for improving Leeds - Sheffield journey times but I suspect makes a Woodhead Base Tunnel less likely to happen and so makes reducing Sheffield - Manchester journey times more difficult.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If the HS2 service also stops at Chesterfield then one or both of the existing 2TPH London service could be cut back to Derby. Some sort of XC service would still be running at around the existing 2TPH and would provide the Sheffield-Derby link. That frees up quite a bit of platform capacity at Sheffield.
The station itself will be re-modelled prior to electrification and although I don't know what has been decided I do recall some suggestion of providing extra platforms at the expense of through roads. A Nottingham-style build-out would be possible but the need is more likely to be for more full-length platforms. It might be possible to narrow one of the existing island platforms and replace the adjacent pair of through roads with a single full-length platform road served by a "single sided island".
Not sure where how they get the 2TPH into London, but I haven't studied the detail yet. Are these the former Heathrow paths? There might also be the possibility of splitting these at Toton and running portions to/from Nottingham and Derby alternately via a new south-facing classic connection.
Altnabreac
Established Member
Nowhere does it mention 2tph to London! The phrasing is "A dedicated link taking high speed trains off the main line and running up to two trains per hour into Sheffield on existing lines". So no guarantee of 2tph never mind both of them going to London.
If you look at the indicative service pattern for HS2 Phase 2 there are 3 potential services that might be converted into the Sheffield service.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...on_of_the_service_patterns__January_2013_.pdf
- A Newcastle - Birmingham classic compatible service. This could either come off at South Kirkby or just use classic lines from Newcastle - Sheffield and then join HS2 at Clay Cross.
- A York - Toton - Euston classic compatible service. This could again either travel via a new South Kirkby chord or travel via Doncaster / Rotherham / Wakefield etc.
- The proposed Leeds - Heathrow service that is now available to Euston instead.
My guess would be it is more likely to be the former two services with with Heathrow paths in demand on the west coast for more Manchester / Stoke / North Wales / Scotland services.
You have to remind yourself that the Meadowhall service pattern was proposed to be 2tph to Euston, 3tph to Birmingham and 1tph to Heathrow so 2tph is a big reduction.
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eastwestdivide
Established Member
The new Sheffield proposal makes certain explicit assumptions.
From the report at gov.uk (2nd of the PDFs at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-sheffield-and-south-yorkshire-report-2016) :
From the report at gov.uk (2nd of the PDFs at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-sheffield-and-south-yorkshire-report-2016) :
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The first two would require the northern connection which isn't part of the core proposal but is being investigated by Rail North - unless the cities further north are to lose those services entirely or have them extended further by having to use classic lines all the way to/from the Erewash connection. The other option would be to run something as a 400m instead of a 200m and split at Toton - but this delays the slower portion by several minutes in addition to the stopping penalty.
Probably they are being cagey about the service pattern until Rail North reports on the northern connection.
Random thoughts having read the reports and the threads on here:
As a born and bred Sheffielder (though now living out near Retford so enjoy a decent connection to London), I think this is a sensible compormise (assuming it gets built) though I disagree with the "bigger markets" statements as, if Sheffield had an East Coast style rail link, it's market would be a lot bigger. Starting from 19th Century constraints is not what HS is supposed to be about!
I can see no reference to Bradway tunnel, surely that will have to be rebored/refurbished and and what about the 4 lines that used to run out of Sheffield that then get narrowed down at the tunnel.
On the Manchester link that people have referenced in their posts above, there is mention of using the Hope Valley route (rather than Woodhead), which works for Sheffield Midland but could an HS route be put through there?
As a born and bred Sheffielder (though now living out near Retford so enjoy a decent connection to London), I think this is a sensible compormise (assuming it gets built) though I disagree with the "bigger markets" statements as, if Sheffield had an East Coast style rail link, it's market would be a lot bigger. Starting from 19th Century constraints is not what HS is supposed to be about!
I can see no reference to Bradway tunnel, surely that will have to be rebored/refurbished and and what about the 4 lines that used to run out of Sheffield that then get narrowed down at the tunnel.
On the Manchester link that people have referenced in their posts above, there is mention of using the Hope Valley route (rather than Woodhead), which works for Sheffield Midland but could an HS route be put through there?
GrimsbyPacer
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Has anyone drawn a map of the Sheffield HS2 Bypass yet?
HSTEd
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If we assume, charitably, that both paths released by the Heathrow cancellation were assigned to this madness, then you can split both trains per hour at Toton, then scatter four trains per hour to destinations via Sheffield. You could ease the loading at Sheffield by only having one of each pair stop at Chesterfield, spreading them a bit.
Put a two trains per hour into Hull, one to Leeds via Doncaster and one to York via Doncaster.
Then you could truncate essentially all ICEC operations to a KGX-Stevenage-Peterborough-Grantham-Newark-Retford-Doncaster clockface, four per hour with only one extension per hour to each of Leeds/York.
Put a two trains per hour into Hull, one to Leeds via Doncaster and one to York via Doncaster.
Then you could truncate essentially all ICEC operations to a KGX-Stevenage-Peterborough-Grantham-Newark-Retford-Doncaster clockface, four per hour with only one extension per hour to each of Leeds/York.
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WatcherZero
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There is one in the report.
Look North led on the threat to a new housing estate at Mexborough:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36716526
The BBC website also has this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36688823
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36716526
The BBC website also has this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36688823
WatcherZero
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Purple is new route
Orange the original route
Dark grey is classic line new route will operate over
Light Grey is classic route that might be used by HS3/NPR for Leeds-Sheffield services.
Under the new plan it will only be used by classic compatible trains, so I imagine if any works to it are needed, they will be done as part of MML electrification and come under that budget.
there is a more recent service pattern - from October 2103. That shows a classic compatible services splitting at Meadowhall, and then going on to Leeds and York.
My guess is that this is the path that would be taken by a dedicated HS2 service to Sheffield, and on to Barnsley. Whether the York half of the train still carries on, I don't know; presumably it could split at Toton.
Otherwise, if there are going to be two London paths to Sheffield, one of the 'spare' Heathrow paths could be implied; maybe going on to Meadowhall and Rotherham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/inserts/S&A 20_PFM assumptions report.pdf
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Where cost effective, HS2 could 'top up' and dovetail with existing NR renewal and enhancement plans on the classic sections concerned to achieve modest further improvements. Whilst I'm sure that won't stretch to GC gauge, it might mean, say, four tracking between Dore and Totley, and marginal additional speed uplifts and junction improvements in places.
With the east pair from Dore and Totley assigned as 'fasts', at Sheffield then the east island #6-#8 logically might become the default faciilty for HS and other longer train, leaving shorter classic services to use the other platforms, perhaps with some innovative build out sections similar to Nottingham, as suggested by edwin_m. To avoid HS services clogging up the limited long platforms, it would be advantageous operationally and also to serve the region better, to extend these trains and reverse them elsewhere. Perhaps a 2TPH service could alternate between terminating at Rotherham Central (New terminal platfrom(s) constructed to west of existing station with improved doubled link line from the Midland route), and Barnsley / Wakefield (significant extra electrification for that clearly). Just going to Barnsley might be a good compromise if Wakefield could be served by other means. All of these trains could stop at an improved Meadowhall classic station en route.
With the new route passing so close to Doncaster, another possibility could be a link line branching off and following the M18 further then taking a long curve into the south end of Doncaster. Fast York and Newcastle trains could thus use the shorter ECML route from Doncaster to York, already a well engineered modern high speed line for the most part and largely dedicated to fast traffic with grade separations etc (probably 140MPH capable with new ETCS signalling). That could avoid a link line from the Leeds main line towards York, whilst also opening up some further potential destinations for CCs, such as Wakefield and Hull. Just before the link line junction, a South Yorkshire parkway could be provided at M18 J1 near Maltby. That might be of some use as a splitting point for CC portions as suggested above. Yes portion working inserts some additional journey time but a direct train is always more attractive than changing. Furthermore the Doncaster link idea could also offer some more phasing possibilities with Leeds trains at first running via Doncaster until the final stretch is finished.
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If some HS2 trains are now to call at Chesterfield on their way into Sheffield Midland it will also be interesting to see what Derbyshire Couny Council have to say about this.
Whilst Derbyshire are bound to welcome the greatly reduced journey times from Chesterfield to London, will this now actually mean shorter journey times to Chesterfield in the north of the county than to Derby itself via Toton.
Also with a change of trains at Toton it could also mean that there won't be that greater difference in time to reach Sheffield City Centre than Nottingham City Centre. Unless there is going to be a fairly fast route into Nottingham from Toton and immediate cross platform connections it will be possible to reach Chesterfield and even Sheffield in very comparable timings to Nottingham.
Whilst Derbyshire are bound to welcome the greatly reduced journey times from Chesterfield to London, will this now actually mean shorter journey times to Chesterfield in the north of the county than to Derby itself via Toton.
Also with a change of trains at Toton it could also mean that there won't be that greater difference in time to reach Sheffield City Centre than Nottingham City Centre. Unless there is going to be a fairly fast route into Nottingham from Toton and immediate cross platform connections it will be possible to reach Chesterfield and even Sheffield in very comparable timings to Nottingham.
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GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
Derby isn't in Derbyshire, different council.
Anyway today's annoucement is bad in my view, just like the whole HS2 project!
Anyway today's annoucement is bad in my view, just like the whole HS2 project!
WatcherZero
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Been out for a day and the change has got universal approval with the exception of the new housing estate it will now go through and the mayor of Doncaster.
Ok, my mistake. It may be a different local authority but Chesterfield and Derby are both in the County of Derbyshire. I get your point but it is interesting that Chesterfield in the north of the county will be a quicker journey from London that to Derby in the south of the county.
Class 170101
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Perhaps more of a political ganme is being played here.
However I am baffled why the original HS2 route couldn't have had a link in the Meadowhall area to the existing classic line and enter Sheffield Midland from the north.
Also how much of a saving is there for Chesterfield via the new route compared to coming off HS2 at Toton and running via Alfreton?
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