Hs2 what about making the trains look like the APT?

[Domh245]

Lights and lighting is something that makes something look futuristic and modern. The APT looked the part.

The apt's front lighting definitely isn't modern or futuristic looking at all. It is longer than it is tall, it's boxy and mounted as low as they could get it - much like a Lamborgini countach or a Ferrari F40. Indeed it's a similar story looking at the front end of the train as a whole - large flat panels joining with others at (generally) 90° angles - something that was the height of technology in the mid 80s. Nowadays, it's all about complex curved surfaces. The only way in which the APT looks modern is if you've come straight from the mid to late 70s.

And that's as someone who is something of an apt fanboy

 

[richieb1971]

Im well out of touch with train trending fashion then. Nothing released in the world has wowd me since the apt. Most new designs look more like arrow heads and im pretty sure someone could have thought of that in 1970. Its what all aircraft have afterall.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Can someone please post a pic of a train that makes the apt "look" outdated. Id love to see it. The nose is the most identified part if the train so lets stick with that part first. The duck bills are not pleasing to the eye imo. The 800 is just rounder it doesnt look 21st century to me. The 800 is hardly an a4 moment.

Would this fit the bill if it had come to fruition?

 

[Cowley]

Would this fit the bill if it had come to fruition?

That’s a nice looking machine isn’t it. A very interesting ‘what might have been’.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not to mention that there is a whole host of industry standards requirements (TSIs etc), introduced since the APT was designed.
The requirement for performance of the initial classic-compatible fleet to be optimised both for HS2 and National Network (WCML) brings its own constraints.
The requirements for reliability are onerous, and the APT never reached anything like satisfactory reliability.
It was never in proper production, just various prototype and pre-production versions with limited operational approvals.
In passenger service terms, without a production run, it never existed.
It lived on only in terms of its livery (reflected in the BR Inter-City livery), and in the tilting design which eventually found its way into the Pendolino family.

 

[6Gman]

Rather disappointed in the responses. The train could be made 1.25x bigger if necessary. Dont agree with the dated statement and i dont agree we should have a foreign design on the shell. Dont care what power unit it has.

Why does it matter?

 

[6Gman]

It seems as usual my post reads like an april fools joke. If there is a british flag on any hs2 train the joke is on you my friends. The fastest trains on the fastest network in the country and its all built to foreign design. One more reason for brits to hate hs2. For 50 billion you would think it would be open season for ideas.

Why not just buy the most effective, most efficient and most cost effective design, regardless of where the technology originated?

 

[pdeaves]

To me, the APT looks '80s' through and through, made up as it is largely by straight lines. It was ahead of its time when new but isn't any more. Now that engineers understand streamlining better they will design something more streamlined. Ultimately, function (in things like streamlining) will trump aesthetics. The latter, of course, is highly subjective and what one person likes, another will dislike.

 

[D365]

Would this fit the bill if it had come to fruition?

To be honest, I can't look at that mockup and not think of a saucer

 

[Ash Bridge]

That’s a nice looking machine isn’t it. A very interesting ‘what might have been’.

Indeed, I’d forgotten all about it until coming across that model in the NRM the other week, interesting to think if privatisation hadn’t took place that thing could probably still be the mainstay of WCML IC services today?

To be honest, I can't look at that mockup and not think of a saucer

I have to admit I’ve seen another image somewhere of an artists impression of the IC 250 and looking at that one I definitely get your point

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Im well out of touch with train trending fashion then. Nothing released in the world has wowd me since the apt. Most new designs look more like arrow heads and im pretty sure someone could have thought of that in 1970. Its what all aircraft have afterall.

Even aircraft design evolves over time. Recent clean sheet designs like Embraer E-jets, Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 all have a nose cone whose point is below the centre-line of the fuselage rather than in-line as was the case with earlier designs. It gives a similar low-slung look to the front end that the duck-bills do to HS trains. Or for something more everyday televisions have almost nothing but display screen facing the viewer because universal use of remote control has eliminated the need for any buttons on the front. As technology advances products evolve to incorporate it. Retro styling may have its place but not on trains likely to last 30 years!

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day the more we advance in design and production the more homogenised things will become. A huge flat slab at an angle with the lights at 90 degrees to the ground just doesn't cut it any more. Even if making the whole front look more bullet shaped only saves a couple of pence every journey then those couple of pence add up. I'm sure if we wanted to we could have the new trains looking like something out of a Steam Punk fantasy and still running at 200mph, it would cost a lot more though.

For the record I would love our trains to look like something out of a steam punk fantasy but in all honesty I don't want to pay for it.

 

[Chester1]

HS2 Ltd reveals rolling stock contract shortlist

"Alstom Transport, Bombardier Transportation UK, Hitachi Rail Europe, Patentes Talgo and Siemens."

Does that actually miss out any UK train builders who could handle such a contract?

CAF wanted to bid but have not been shortlisted. However based on staff size and production level at Newton Aycliffe, the CAF facility in Newport will probably only have capacity for 75-100 coaches per year so would have had to build half the trains elsewhere.

The Alstom site at Widness could be used by either them or Siemens. Talgo are looking for a site in the UK and Hitachi have Newton Aycliffe. The chances of the trains being built or assembled in the UK are very high. Its unsurprising that they will not be designed in the UK when we have only one relatively short 200mph service.

I think the government missed an opportunity when Bombardier was in serious trouble with the C series jet programme. They could have bought shares or loaned money in return for making Bombardier an Anglo-Canadian company. Canada lacks the size or clout to fully support a huge aerospace and transport manufacturer but collectively with the UK it could and the Quebec government would not have to borrow a large amount to bail out Bombardier.

 

[class387]

Ah come on mate, if you stuck an APT next to any number of modern high speed trains it will look dated, especially ones that run on dedicated high speed routes. I can't believe you are serious. That doesn't mean I don't like the APT. As much as I love older trains and the way they look you have to admit that modern streamlining also makes trains more economical and reduces wind noise.

If anything I think a HST looks more modern than the APT.

 

[Intercity 225]

Would this fit the bill if it had come to fruition?

Shame the Intercity 250 never made it to production, still looks great today.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Shame the Intercity 250 never made it to production, still looks great today.

It certainly does, and to my eyes the IC livery hasn't really dated either, just a personal opinion of course.

 

[richieb1971]

IC250 looks really good. But if i said id support that model i am sure there are 250 reasons ppl will come up with why that shell design wont be used either. Im only talking shell here, the train underneath can be anything. Its about identity not engineering skills.

 

[Intercity 225]

It certainly does, and to my eyes the IC livery hasn't really dated either, just a personal opinion of course.

I completely agree, there's been no more recent livery that's been better than it in my opinion.

 

[Roast Veg]

Im only talking shell here, the train underneath can be anything. Its about identity not engineering skills.

But that's the inherent issue - we're not just talking about the identity. The outer shape and appearance of rolling stock is as much a byproduct of the manufacturing techniques of any given manufacturer and the configuration of the visible components just as much it is a conscious stylistic effort.

 

[whhistle]

Can someone please post a pic of a train that makes the apt "look" outdated. Id love to see it.

Many:

Class 374:

Californian "Bullet" Train:

ICE:

TGV:

Chinese HST:

All nice flowing lines, compared with the relative bulky straight corners of the APT. Although admittedly they get more dated from the ICE train down.

What you're asking for is people to agree with your opinion, which I can't see anyone that does. Just because you like it, doesn't mean everyone does, or that it should happen.

I also dislike the huge long duck front sections of many Chinese trains, but the ones posted above seem to have a good balance of aero dynamics and style.

But I do agree the front of the 800/801/802 trains looks a little... boring.

 

[class387]

Many:

Class 374:

Californian "Bullet" Train:

ICE:

TGV:

Chinese HST:

All nice flowing lines, compared with the relative bulky straight corners of the APT. Although admittedly they get more dated from the ICE train down.

What you're asking for is people to agree with your opinion, which I can't see anyone that does. Just because you like it, doesn't mean everyone does, or that it should happen.

I also dislike the huge long duck front sections of many Chinese trains, but the ones posted above seem to have a good balance of aero dynamics and style.

But I do agree the front of the 800/801/802 trains looks a little... boring.

Agreed. However I don't think the CR400BF (the Chinese train you posted) is China's best design. It looks a bit squashed and disproportionate to me, not to mention how much it sways at high speed. The CR400AF I posted the page before I like a lot better, both to look at and to ride.

 

[Cowley]

I must admit that out of all of those, even though it’s a bit dated I like the TGV most. To my tastes it just looks like it’s got a bit of character.

 

[fowler9]

I think that Chinese train on the first page of the thread looks amazing, it looks like you could launch it in to space. The duck billed trains are growing on me, kind of like the way I like the A-10 ground attack/close air support aircraft. Ugly as sin but it does what it says on the tin and does it well, they have character.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I must admit that out of all of those, even though it’s a bit dated I like the TGV most. To my tastes it just looks like it’s got a bit of character.

I have to agree with that, it shares virtually the same front end as it Class 373 sister which to my eyes at least looks excellent in the the new Eurostar livery, infact I do prefer it appearance wise over the Class 374.

 

[fowler9]

I have to agree with that, it shares virtually the same front end as it Class 373 sister which to my eyes at least looks excellent in the the new Eurostar livery, infact I do prefer it appearance wise over the Class 374.

Yeah it is a lovely looking train, love the duplex.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yeah it is a lovely looking train, love the duplex.

I've lead a bit of a sheltered life really and only been on a couple of Sud Est units to date, would love to sample a fast run on the top deck of a duplex though!

 

[pdeaves]

The duck billed trains are growing on me

Quack, quack.

 

[fowler9]

Quack, quack.

Ha ha, they really are growing on me, perhaps like a fungus, but they are growing on me. Ha ha.

 

[bavvo]

I believe the duck bill shape is more to do with acoustics, reducing the sonic boom that happens when passing through tunnels, although as HS2 is being built from the outset for high speed the newer tunnel design might not require such a drastic nose shape. In Japan some of the high speed lines are decades old so they are having to work around the limitations of sixties tunnels. Either way though, aerodynamics and stability are going to take priority over aesthetics at the desired speeds. At those sorts of speeds the air acts more like a dense fluid and take a lot of energy to overcome efficiently.

 

[class387]

I think that Chinese train on the first page of the thread looks amazing, it looks like you could launch it in to space. The duck billed trains are growing on me, kind of like the way I like the A-10 ground attack/close air support aircraft. Ugly as sin but it does what it says on the tin and does it well, they have character.

I used to think the duck-bill Shinkansens look awful, but after seeing them in person I quite like them now. That Chinese train for me is easily the best looking train in the world, if not my favourite train in general.