Hs2

[YorkshireBear]

why do tories insist on the S shape through pennines from manchester when two seperate studies one of which done by ARUP suggest not this and infact doing a Y shape........... hardly sensible

 

[gordonthemoron]

not invented here syndrom perhaps?

in any case, linking Leeds & Manchester together is a good idea IMO

 

[YorkshireBear]

no disagreement with linking manchester and leeds just dont see why they go against reports and are insisting on cutting off the east except for leeds

 

[Geezertronic]

I suppose the same could be said of their proposed plans to link HS2 directly with Heathrow. I guess it could lead to an improved Northern Cross Country network

 

[wibble]

why do tories insist on the S shape through pennines from manchester when two seperate studies one of which done by ARUP suggest not this and infact doing a Y shape........... hardly sensible

I'm sure there's some political reason for it....

 

[jopsuk]

Matters little, frankly, given it'll get dropped in the spending review- not for NIMBYism reasons, for cost reasons. Well, for NIMBY reasons disgusied as cost reasons. Transport minister doesn't like trains.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Transport minister doesn't like trains.

well that's never happened before :roll:

 

[LE Greys]

Well, the "S" (or "2" to be a bit more accurate) provides the option of a short-cut parallel with the ECML (or potentially via Stansted), turning it into a sort of backwards "6". Otherwise, it's just a desperate attempt to link up as many places as possible with London while building the minimum ammout of track. That's possibly to avoid the problem Dijon had when LGV Sud-Est bypassed it. I'm not quite sure when they'll get a connection. However, despite being on the direct route from Calais to Paris, Amines is currently bypassed by LGV Nord in favour of Lille, purely because Lille is more convenient as a junction for Brussels.

This is not new. All traffic to and from Cornwall on the Great Western ran via Bristol until 1906, and for Newcastle via Rugby and Derby until 1850. Perhaps this is the British rail system returning to its roots.

 

[Chris125]

Matters little, frankly, given it'll get dropped in the spending review- not for NIMBYism reasons, for cost reasons. Well, for NIMBY reasons disgusied as cost reasons. Transport minister doesn't like trains.

Unlike Crossrail or Thameslink i havent seen any suggestion that HS2 will be dropped - and for very good reason. Not only are large infrastructure projects such as Crossrail and potentially HS2 being looked on more favourably, but little actual expenditure will happen till after the next election anyway.

After all, 5 years is plenty of time for fuel prices to rise, road congestion to get ever worse, capacity constraints on the WCML being felt by passengers despite the upgrade and 11-car pendo's, a rise in destinations and use of HS1, the economy to recover and the progression and completion of many more european and global high speed lines - add to that the large workforce and skills base being employed on Crossrail shortly being out of work, and HS2 might start making more sense to the wider population.

Chris

 

[sirdouglas]

bring back the woodhead route

 

[YorkshireBear]

bring back the woodhead route

i think everyone will agree on that

 

[route:oxford]

bring back the woodhead route

Then run it between Carlisle and Edinburgh on the Waverley route. (Straighten it out a bit of course...)

 

[YorkshireBear]

woodhead route must be the biggest regret of the closures. That line now would be a god send for us as hope valley is struggling with capactiy so TPE could go that way with EMT fast staying same and more locals.......

Waverly is being partly reopened isn't it (is it more than half or less)

 

[IanXC]

I thought Philip Hammond had decided to pretty much go with the HS2 route that was announced by the Labour government? I remember reading that he'd been swayed but that there would have to be adjustments in places.

 

[LE Greys]

bring back the woodhead route

Western branch of my version of HS2, which runs to Sheffield, then splits, with one branch going to Manchester and Preston, then up the WCML, and the other to Leeds and York, then up the ECML. Both eventually gets quadrupled with 200 mph fast lines (deviating from the old route a little bit) and full TVM 430/ETCS Level 3. The Woodhead would also make an excellent route for a modified TPX South, and an East Anglia-Glasgow XC route.

 

[Chris125]

I thought Philip Hammond had decided to pretty much go with the HS2 route that was announced by the Labour government? I remember reading that he'd been swayed but that there would have to be adjustments in places.

It seems he said t'other day that the current route through the Chilterns was the only realistic option. Common sense appears to have struck, presumably because they've actually bothered to read the report now that Villiers has been pushed aside...

•The new government will have a new route from Labour's preferred route (but only what the Minister calls 'relatively minor’ changes from the current preferred option 3).
•Phillip Hammond believes improving existing rail lines and infrastructure won't be as effective as HS2 will be.
•No HS2 stops are being planned in this area despite calls for a HS2 station in Milton Keynes, Phillip Hammond says it will slow the 250 mile an hour trains down to much. The Transport Secretary says the West Coast Main line will offer an improved service instead.
•HS2 will be mentioned in the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review on October 20th. Government won't announce it's revised preferred route until nearer Christmas.
•Mitigation of the effects of HS2 for those affected will be looked at.
•Planning an alternative route next to the M40 or M1 is likely to be expensive and although will be looked at the Minister appeared doubtful that it will be recommended instead of the current option 3.

(taken from a local radio news article - It Seems HS2 Will Happen!)

Chris

 

[Geezertronic]

•The new government will have a new route from Labour's preferred route (but only what the Minister calls 'relatively minor’ changes from the current preferred option 3).

Minor meaning the diversion via Heathrow? Also, there were changes around Burton Green to appease the NIMBYs from what I heard

•Phillip Hammond believes improving existing rail lines and infrastructure won't be as effective as HS2 will be.

I tend to agree

•No HS2 stops are being planned in this area despite calls for a HS2 station in Milton Keynes, Phillip Hammond says it will slow the 250 mile an hour trains down to much. The Transport Secretary says the West Coast Main line will offer an improved service instead.

I always thought HS2 was going to be 4 track (at least until the Y split) so that would allow high speed trains to pass stoppers? If this is not the case, it is highly illogical

•HS2 will be mentioned in the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review on October 20th. Government won't announce it's revised preferred route until nearer Christmas.

They should get their finger out, we all want to know

•Mitigation of the effects of HS2 for those affected will be looked at.
•Planning an alternative route next to the M40 or M1 is likely to be expensive and although will be looked at the Minister appeared doubtful that it will be recommended instead of the current option 3.

That'll please the NIMBYs

 

[LE Greys]

•No HS2 stops are being planned in this area despite calls for a HS2 station in Milton Keynes, Phillip Hammond says it will slow the 250 mile an hour trains down to much. The Transport Secretary says the West Coast Main line will offer an improved service instead.

I'm fully expecting that to be reversed. Not entirely sure of the actual route, but I'm expecting a stop either there or somewhere around Brackley (which would give reasonable access from the M40). However, the vast majority of through trains from the continent would run right through (ideally to Stratford, to save time)

•Planning an alternative route next to the M40 or M1 is likely to be expensive and although will be looked at the Minister appeared doubtful that it will be recommended instead of the current option 3.

The M1 actually runs right alongside the Great Central just south of Leicester, but it's highly unlikely the route would go that way unless they use a radically-different version of the "Y". Cramming another line through Watford Gap seems unlikely.

Minor meaning the diversion via Heathrow? Also, there were changes around Burton Green to appease the NIMBYs from what I heard

That sort of makes sense

I always thought HS2 was going to be 4 track (at least until the Y split) so that would allow high speed trains to pass stoppers? If this is not the case, it is highly illogical

I quite agree. Slow lines to 125 mph with conventional signalling, so that there will be an alternative route for ordinary WCML trains in some places. There is also the option of an extended service from Kent to Milton Keynes, Aylesbury or Brackley as suggested by Greengauge 21.

 

[swt_passenger]

I always thought HS2 was going to be 4 track (at least until the Y split) so that would allow high speed trains to pass stoppers? If this is not the case, it is highly illogical

The only four track sections will be at stations. Effectively that limits it to the Birmingham International Delta Junction where the Birningham branch splits off the main route.

There was a suggestion somewhere that land would be reserved for four tracking, but it certainly isn't to be built that way.

 

[Geezertronic]

Well that kind of defeats the object to me. I was always under the assumption that the Labour plans were for 4 tracking since the diagrams on the DfT website seemed to indicate 4 tracks and I would be very disappointed and consider it very short sighted if it wasn't built that way as standard

 

[swt_passenger]

Well that kind of defeats the object to me. I was always under the assumption that the Labour plans were for 4 tracking since the diagrams on the DfT website seemed to indicate 4 tracks and I would be very disappointed and consider it very short sighted if it wasn't built that way as standard

I think at some magnifications the red colour used on the DfT maps does look like four tracks, but it becomes clearer at large sizes. If you look at the south end of the midlands delta junction pdf (at 100% magnification) it clearly shows the two to four track change - and there are two further 'thinner' red lines outside the tracks, I think these just define the railway boundary.

westmidmap01.pdf

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think at some magnifications the red colour used on the DfT maps does look like four tracks, but it becomes clearer at large sizes. If you look at the south end of the midlands delta junction pdf (at 100% magnification) it clearly shows the two to four track change - and there are two further 'thinner' red lines outside the tracks, I think these just define the railway boundary.

westmidmap01.pdf

where is rest of that map?

 

[ainsworth74]

They are all on this website.

 

[LE Greys]

They are all on this website.

Just been looking at them. It's a bit odd that there does not seem to be a connection to the Birmingham-Coventry line at Berkswell, which would be useful at least for getting permanent way trains in and out. Ideally, it would also give the option to run via the WCML during blockades.

 

[philjo]

On BBC news today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11465786

The government will back plans for high-speed rail links to Manchester and Leeds, Transport Secretary Philip Hammond has said.

The planned new 250mph rail route between London and Birmingham aims to cut the journey time to 49 minutes.

North of Birmingham, ministers prefer plans for two lines - one to Manchester and one via the East Midlands and South Yorkshire.

Mr Hammond said plans would "transform the economy" in north-east England.

Plans for a new high-speed rail link were announced under the previous government in March.

It was backed in the coalition deal between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, but they said that, given financial constraints, it would have to be done in phases.
They have said no final decision will be taken until a full public consultation, due to start in 2011, has been carried out. Building work is not likely to start until the next Parliament - 2015 at the earliest.

In his speech to the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, Mr Hammond said consultation would begin in the new year on the preferred route of the London to Birmingham leg of the rail network.

But he announced that ministers' preferred option for the link north of Birmingham would be for two separate corridors.

One would go direct to Manchester, which would connect to the west coast mainline, and the other via the East Midlands and South Yorkshire, with stations in both areas, which would connect to the east coast mainline north of Leeds.

The so-called Y-option will be the government's preferred option over an S-shaped line from Birmingham to Manchester, then across the Pennines to Leeds. The two lines are estimated to offer a greater return on the investment.
'Smaller Britain'

But details of the exact routes have not yet been worked out. The Conservatives say the government will consult on options early next year.

They say the new rail routes would reduce journeys from London to Leeds to 80 minutes - down from 140 minutes at present and from London to Manchester to 80 minutes from 128.

The plan is for the new rail network to be linked to Heathrow Airport and the existing high-speed line between London and the Channel Tunnel.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

It will only be a low-carbon travel alternative if it is powered by renewable energy”

End Quote Tony Bosworth Friends of the Earth

Mr Hammond said the scheme - estimated to cost £33bn - would "make rail the mode of choice for most inter-city journeys within the UK" and would change "the economic and social geography of Britain, connecting our great population centres and our international gateways together".

He said it would help rebalance economies that the government believed had become too dependent on the public sector - by encouraging business investment in regions which have been considered too far away from London.

"By creating a smaller Britain, where literally journey times from Leeds to London will be about 80 minutes, we change the geography, we change the way people think and we change the opportunities that are available."

He added: "This great connectivity is fantastic news for the North East and other regions and will transform the economy, I have no doubt about that at all.

Mr Hammond also confirmed plans to scrap the M4 bus lane and said Britain's railway network had to modernise - to bring down costs and increase efficiency.

Friends of the Earth spokesman Tony Bosworth said the government must ensure any new rail network led to an overall cut in carbon emissions from transport.

He said: "A fast and efficient electric high-speed rail system could help reduce domestic flights and car journeys, but it will only be a low-carbon travel alternative if it is powered by renewable energy."

 

[sprinterguy]

I’m pleased to see that the Y-shaped network, with separate arms to Leeds and Manchester, has found precedence over the coalitions’ preferred S-shape, which would have offered very minimal benefits in journey time reduction by the time it reached Leeds. It’s good news overall that the Government sees an extension beyond the West Midlands to Manchester and Leeds as a good idea, instead of ending up with a multi-billion pound London-Birmingham white elephant. And I’m also glad that an East Midlands, serving Derby and Nottingham hopefully, and South Yorkshire, hopefully serving Sheffield and Leeds, stations are proposed. Very sensible thinking.

However:

This great connectivity is fantastic news for the North East

Great, the north east is going to be at the end of a high speed rail line that’s principal purpose will no doubt be taking many more people towards London for business than will be travelling northward, further eroding businesses in the area. Though it is argued that by bringing the north east closer to London it will make the area more attractive for businesses to locate to, I can really only foresee it being useful for a flow in the opposite direction. Personally, I’d rather the north east had some improvements and upgrades made to its’ existing local and regional links within the region first and have some investment there.

Britain's railway network has to modernise - to bring down costs and increase efficiency.

Excellent, does this mean we can get on with some electrification projects now; that will modernise many areas of the UK at a much lower cost than a single High Speed Rail Line?

Overall, I’m pleased that a sensible scheme for HS2 is coming together with plenty of rational ideas, but I’m still rather sceptical of the precedence it is receiving over what I view as more beneficial projects.

 

[ainsworth74]

Overall, I’m pleased that a sensible scheme for HS2 is coming together with plenty of rational ideas, but I’m still rather sceptical of the precedence it is receiving over what I view as more beneficial projects.

^^^ Pretty much sums up what I'm thinking about this annoncement.

 

[Geezertronic]

It will only work if they 4 track the whole route in my opinion. This will in time lead to the possibility of adding commuter routes alongside the high speed services without one affecting the other.

And the problem is that if anyone thinks that if HS2 gets canned, the money will be redistributed for classic line projects, I think they will be very much mistaken.

 

[sprinterguy]

And the problem is that if anyone thinks that if HS2 gets canned, the money will be redistributed for classic line projects, I think they will be very much mistaken.

Nope, no such delusions here: The HS2 funding pot is a completely separate item to classic rail investment as far as I can tell, even if the project were to be pulled the money would undoubtedly disappear elsewhere and have no benefit for the railways: My main wish is just that more thought was being given to more simplistic means of improving the rail network incrementally, instead of focusing entirely on a big, shiny high speed line: Whilst I do think that it is necessary to be planning HS2 now in order to meet future demand, I just hope that it isn’t to the detriment to other schemes on the classic network in the interim.

I agree that HS2 needs to be a four track affair; just building a twin-track high speed line is displaying spectacular short-sightedness.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theyve settled on 2 lines throughout which is dissapointing for the future in my opinion but it will save a lot of money short term (especielly as its looking upto a 1/3rd of it could be in tunnels to placate chilterns residents). I dont see Commuter services operating on it for decades however, they will just run on the existing lines with more paths available and less need to fuss about fast and slows though you would still probably see stoppers and express stoppers, just not limited stoppers.