HST cab protection

[HC1998]

Hi all. Hope you had a good Christmas. I saw this when browsing twitter. What’s the deal?

https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1740047999429140719?s=46&t=RdZND3FY1EujSxDuLKpFOQ

https://twitter.com/pauljsweeney/status/1740042888929476824?s=46&t=95qQ_JEx3iXfmDmNBAOQWg

 

[800 Driver]

Hi all. Hope you had a good Christmas. I saw this when browsing twitter. What’s the deal?

https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status/1740047999429140719?s=46&t=RdZND3FY1EujSxDuLKpFOQ

https://twitter.com/pauljsweeney/status/1740042888929476824?s=46&t=95qQ_JEx3iXfmDmNBAOQWg

The deal is, as Paul said, they are made of fibreglass, and as Gareth says, without cost prohibitive upgrades, they are no longer suitable for mainline operation. We need new trains.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looks like a tree strike. Hopefully the driver was unharmed.

ASLEF will pounce on this faster than a tiger on a leg of meat to accentuate their protests against the HSTs continued usage, and while I’m famously not a fan of them, they have my support on this occasion. They’re shot and knackered trains and unlike GWR, ScotRail aren’t (publicly, I know there are some unsourced internal rumours about 222s) bothering to get them gone until 2027!

 

[Elecman]

Aren’t they on contractural lease till then? Would be very expensive to cancel the lease 4 years early unless the ORR were to positively ban thier use on safety grounds

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Driver escaped unharmed, according to all sources so far reporting on the tree strike.

 

[Efini92]

Looks like a tree strike. Hopefully the driver was unharmed.

ASLEF will pounce on this faster than a tiger on a leg of meat to accentuate their protests against the HSTs continued usage, and while I’m famously not a fan of them, they have my support on this occasion. They’re shot and knackered trains and unlike GWR, ScotRail aren’t (publicly, I know there are some unsourced internal rumours about 222s) bothering to get them gone until 2027!

There’s a post circulating from one of the houses near where the tree came down, claiming they reported the tree to network rail 10 mins before the collision. If that’s true I expect ASLEF to pounce on that.

 

[TrainsToday]

Looks like a tree strike. Hopefully the driver was unharmed.

ASLEF will pounce on this faster than a tiger on a leg of meat to accentuate their protests against the HSTs continued usage, and while I’m famously not a fan of them, they have my support on this occasion. They’re shot and knackered trains and unlike GWR, ScotRail aren’t (publicly, I know there are some unsourced internal rumours about 222s) bothering to get them gone until 2027!

It in unlikely that Scotrail will bin the HST's before their lease is up.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would be very expensive to cancel the lease 4 years early unless the ORR were to positively ban thier use on safety grounds

I think that is precisely what ASLEF are encouraging.

It in unlikely that Scotrail will bin the HST's before their lease is up.

Sure, but then we run the risk of ASLEF refusing to let their drivers operate them.

Remember, this is the union complaining that the 458 cabs weren’t refurbished in line with the paying passengers’ saloons snd thus refusing to drive 458/4s. If they can get away with boycotting driving a type over something as trivial as that, they can definitely manage to boycott a class where they genuinely fear for workers safety. And I must say that is one boycott I actually wouldn’t condemn. The driver is very clearly not well protected in a HST cab.

 

[king_walnut]

Will that have to be scrapped or is there a way of repairing it?

 

[thomalex]

Might be time to scrap HSTs altogether

 

[HSTEd]

Sure, but then we run the risk of ASLEF refusing to let their drivers operate them.

Remember, this is the union complaining that the 458 cabs weren’t refurbished in line with the paying passengers’ saloons snd thus refusing to drive 458/4s. If they can get away with boycotting driving a type over something as trivial as that, they can definitely manage to boycott a class where they genuinely fear for workers safety. And I must say that is one boycott I actually wouldn’t condemn. The driver is very clearly not well protected in a HST cab.

Given the large size of the Scotrail fleet, a boycott would likely result in a substantial loss of income for ASLEF members.
There were only a handful of 458/4s, they could do it without too much lost pay.

 

[Retorus]

Might be time to scrap HSTs altogether

It's definitely time. They're iconic and will be missed but they're comparatively ancient, and frankly not safe to operate when compared to modern stock.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm not sure why the issue of class 43 design is being ratted again. The crash worthiness weaknesses of that design is well known about.

Large trees can wreak the cabs of other types of in service trains.

What this really shows is that Network Rail still has a problem with line-side vegetation including trees.

 

[a_c_skinner]

That is a striking, well, strike. They need to go fairly urgently. Derby? I'd not realised how crash unworthy they are.

 

[louis97]

What this really shows is that Network Rail still has a problem with line-side vegetation including trees.

From limited integration of the data available from the trains running, it looks like trains were running at line speed on the line between Carnoustie and Dundee. The nearest observation location I can find on the Met Office (Leuchars) shows gusts of up to 60mph for 11am, so i'm not sure why the trains were running at line speed. I guess there could have been more localised data, but seems odd for NR Scotland not to impose a blanket speed restriction for the whole of Dundee to Aberdeen.

 

[Economist]

Are the HST Mark 3 coaches compatible with Class 68s or other diesel locotives? TPE have a load of 68s they're not going to be using, I'm thinking running the HST Mark 3 sets with those might be an interim solution until something newer becomes available, like IETs.

 

[DanNCL]

Two things here, one we're hearing that Network Rail were informed of the tree 10 minutes before the accident. Two we're hearing that trains were running at linespeed.

Have Network Rail forgotten about Carmont already?

Are the HST Mark 3 coaches compatible with Class 68s or other diesel locotives? TPE have a load of 68s they're not going to be using, I'm thinking running the HST Mark 3 sets with those might be an interim solution until something newer becomes available, like IETs.

They aren't compatible with anything other than a 43 and they're just as old. The coaches will go with the power cars.

There are however Mark 5A sets sitting spare alongside those 68s!

 

[Speed43125]

Two things here, one we're hearing that Network Rail were informed of the tree 10 minutes before the accident. Two we're hearing that trains were running at linespeed.

I believe the comment refers to the 'Emergency Line' - which I assumed would be 999. I've no idea how good the communication between a police call centre and NR's Control room might be however.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't see a 15x or 170 surviving exactly the same impact any better.

According to the RAIB, the design impact resistance of the HST power car meets the same standards as the 15x AND the generation of rolling stock constructed after BR was privatised.

The HST cab also has the advantage of space, the driver can get out of the seat and move to a safer position - try doing that in a 15x cab.

This incident has great similarities with Lavington - impact in exactly the same spot at the weakest point of the structure.

Also, we have 80x falling to bits without any external intervention yet that seems to provoke nothing like the concerned reaction HSTs do...

I am sorry the driver had this experience, it cannot be pleasant, but until the other varieties of ScotRail trains suffer precisely the same impact in every respect can we really say the HST is less safe?

I've seen 15x with tree impacts perpetrate right through to the control desk.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Also, we have 80x falling to bits without any external intervention yet that seems to provoke nothing like the concerned reaction HSTs do...

Not in the same way though. Cracks in the underframe, which are now being sorted for the long term, are not the same as a fragile and easily wrecked cab. This was a tiny tree strike and look what’s happened to it. It’s basically disintegrated.

 

[DanNCL]

I believe the comment refers to the 'Emergency Line' - which I assumed would be 999. I've no idea how good the communication between a police call centre and NR's Control room might be however.

However good the communication was it clearly wasn’t good enough.

Even if people were trying their best which I don’t dispute, clearly something needs to change with communications as 10 minutes should have been more than enough time to shut the line.

Also, we have 80x falling to bits without any external intervention yet that seems to provoke nothing like the concerned reaction HSTs do...

80xs are designed to do that, the fibreglass cab on those is only cosmetic and designed to crumple keeping the actual cab structure undamaged and it functioned exactly as designed at Neville Hill. On the HSTs the fibreglass is the structural element so when damaged to the same extent as a comparable incident on an 80x the driver would be at a much higher risk of harm.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Will that have to be scrapped or is there a way of repairing it?

Doubt it will turn a wheel in service again its almost a given it will become a donor

 

[skyhigh]

but until the other varieties of ScotRail trains suffer precisely the same impact in every respect can we really say the HST is less safe?

Yes, I think we can. I would much rather wallop a tree in an 80x, 170 or 19x than an HST. The cab structure of those units is designed to protect the survival space of the driver. A tree will just cut through the cab of a HST like a knife through butter as has been proved time and time again.

I believe the comment refers to the 'Emergency Line' - which I assumed would be 999.

Network Rail have an Emergency Line too. Even if someone called NR directly, I can imagine it would take a good 10 mins for the extent of the issue and precise location to be determined before getting contact with the correct signaller and managing to stop trains. The alternative is stop everything everywhere that could be at risk until the report is determined, which would be hugely disruptive.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I don't see a 15x or 170 surviving exactly the same impact any better.

According to the RAIB, the design impact resistance of the HST power car meets the same standards as the 15x AND the generation of rolling stock constructed after BR was privatised.

The HST cab also has the advantage of space, the driver can get out of the seat and move to a safer position - try doing that in a 15x cab.

This incident has great similarities with Lavington - impact in exactly the same spot at the weakest point of the structure.

Also, we have 80x falling to bits without any external intervention yet that seems to provoke nothing like the concerned reaction HSTs do...

I am sorry the driver had this experience, it cannot be pleasant, but until the other varieties of ScotRail trains suffer precisely the same impact in every respect can we really say the HST is less safe?

I've seen 15x with tree impacts perpetrate right through to the control desk.

Theres been plenty of tree strikes over the last few years in Scotland involving 170s none of which have gone beyond damaging the outer bodywork of the train unlike here where the cab has almost completely dissapeared

 

[sprinterguy]

Will that have to be scrapped or is there a way of repairing it?

Traditionally, damage of this sort was repaired by removing the damaged cab unit and fitting a spare one - whether any spares are available these days, or whether Scotrail would consider it economical to do so, I'm not sure.

 

[DanNCL]

Network Rail have an Emergency Line too. Even if someone called NR directly, I can imagine it would take a good 10 mins for the extent of the issue and precise location to be determined before getting contact with the correct signaller and managing to stop trains. The alternative is stop everything everywhere that could be at risk until the report is determined, which would be hugely disruptive.

If a phone call is recieved saying there’s a tree on the line you shut the line and then investigate it. You don’t wait until you know how big the tree is before taking action because, as we’ve seen today, that can be too late.

It simply isn’t acceptable. If a call is received the facility should be there for the phone operator to immediately log it on a computer and for that to then go straight to the signaller(s) concerned for them to implement a closure to allow for investigation. If the facility is not there then it should be developed and implemented without delay.
People may be delayed but better that than sending them hurling towards a fallen tree at 100mph.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Theres been plenty of tree strikes over the last few years in Scotland involving 170s none of which have gone beyond damaging the outer bodywork of the train unlike here where the cab has almost completely dissapeared

With the greatest of respect, you have jumped to some conclusions not least the type of tree involved in the incidents you describe or the line speed.
The cab is not designed to be an impact-resisting structure and even RAIB's own Carmont report states it's a non-structural GRP fairing that provides an aerodynamic and aesthetic shape.
All responsibility for this incident is with Network Rail.

 

[Alanko]

Gareth Dennis tipping slightly into 'concern trolling' there. Frame it as concern for a driver's welfare while pushing a clear agenda.

How would other trains in the Scotrail fleet handle a similar tree strike (same speed, angle, trunk girth, mass, etc).

 

[Annetts key]

For those who think that the problem is fibreglass, can I point out what a mess a falling tree makes to the roof of a metal car...

Fibreglass is used in many other applications. For example, it's used in racing cars, boats (including fast types) and aircraft.

How good any structure is depends on rather a lot of details, not just on the material it is made from.

 

[fishwomp]

Gareth Dennis tipping slightly into 'concern trolling' there. Frame it as concern for a driver's welfare while pushing a clear agenda.

How would other trains in the Scotrail fleet handle a similar tree strike (same speed, angle, trunk girth, mass, etc).

Good to read the driver escaped safely.

Of all the risks on the railway, is this cab the priority - 45 years of being in service (in larger quantities and at higher speeds) suggests the risk is low.

There is a photo of tree penetrating the cab of a 158 in Scotland in 2021 here - could also have been a much worse outcome for a driver:

Train collision with fallen tree near Glencarse, Perth & Kinross, 21 May 2021

www.gov.uk

Tree management was more the issue there, in that case, as that RAIB report states:

This accident demonstrates the importance of:

• Railway authorities and owners of adjacent land having arrangements in place to manage the risk from potentially hazardous trees, including being aware of the condition of trees which may pose a risk to the safety of the railway, and taking action to manage the risk from such trees.
• Managers who are responsible for maintenance of the lineside being aware of the timeframes for remedial action arising from vegetation inspections, and scheduling follow-up inspections where required.

Let's see what *they* say about this new incident.

Edit: There is a strikingly similar damage in a previous HST incident (2010, Lavington) here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...river-120mph-express-struck-falling-tree.html:

An express train driver cheated death after smashing into a fallen tree - at 120mph.

The driver walked away with only a fractured wrist and a few cuts and bruises after the tree crashed through the windscreen of the train.

The First Great Western service from London Paddington to Penzance was travelling at more than 120mph when the driver noticed an obstruction on the tracks and slammed on the brakes.

.. a *lot* of tree in the cab there, again thankfully the driver survived. That might be luck, design, or ability to get out of the way ...