HST drivers - what are these?

[jj95419]

Hi guys,

Couple of technical questions about the HST control desk (mainly ‘what does that do?’ type questions!)

Referring to the picture, there are a set of buttons under the speedo in the middle, a blue, white and red set of buttons. A couple are covered by a safety cover, what are these used for?

Secondly, the little screen on the right is the desk, what information is put on this? Is it used very often?

Cheers for your help, I’ve just always wanted to know what they do!

 

[E_Reeves]

I believe the buttons under the speedo are the ATP controls

 

[jj95419]

I believe the buttons under the speedo are the ATP controls

Cheers mate, that would make sense. I saw them briefly before and the labelling would suggest that, thanks!

 

[Dieseldriver]

The speedo is an ATP (Automatic Train Protection) speedo. The Great Western Mainline has ATP fitted from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway which is an advanced version of TPWS. Basically it intervenes if the train is driven at excessive speed, or when braking for a lower speed restriction/red signal is being driven outside the braking curve determined by the system. Those little buttons perform functions with the ATP (for example, overriding an ATP intervention when passing a signal at danger with authority).
The right hand screen is DAS (Driver Advisory System). Its intention is to provide information to the Driver that enables them to drive the train more economically whilst still sticking to the timetable. It will show messages of advice (for example 'coast') if it calculates that the train may arrive at junctions or stations early. There are mixed reviews on just how helpful these systems really are!

 

[jj95419]

The speedo is an ATP (Automatic Train Protection) speedo. The Great Western Mainline has ATP fitted from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway which is an advanced version of TPWS. Basically it intervenes if the train is driven at excessive speed, or when braking for a lower speed restriction/red signal is being driven outside the braking curve determined by the system. Those little buttons perform functions with the ATP (for example, overriding an ATP intervention when passing a signal at danger with authority).
The right hand screen is DAS (Driver Advisory System). Its intention is to provide information to the Driver that enables them to drive the train more economically whilst still sticking to the timetable. It will show messages of advice (for example 'coast') if it calculates that the train may arrive at junctions or stations early. There are mixed reviews on just how helpful these systems really are!

What an excellent answer, thank you very much for the detail! I quite often see the DAS system switched off, I’d imagine it’s no substitute for years of one’s experience!

Thank you mate

 

[irish_rail]

What an excellent answer, thank you very much for the detail! I quite often see the DAS system switched off, I’d imagine it’s no substitute for years of one’s experience!

Thank you mate

Ask any driver about DAS they will say the same thing. It's useful only because it gives you mile posts so you can give an accurate location to the signaller.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Ask any driver about DAS they will say the same thing. It's useful only because it gives you mile posts so you can give an accurate location to the signaller.

That's the only use I've ever found for it!

 

[edwin_m]

The Great Western Mainline has ATP fitted from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway which is an advanced version of TPWS.

Just to be clear "advanced version of TPWS" is true in the sense that it does the same thing (applying the brakes if travelling too fast) and more so, but ATP is a totally separate system from TPWS and was not developed from it. In fact ATP came first and TPWS came later when it was found to be too costly and impractical to extend ATP to all routes and trains. It is estimated that at least 70% of the casualties that ATP would save if it was fitted network wide were saved by fitting TPWS instead. Ultimately ERTMS is planned to supersede both, but it will take many years and quite possibly something else will replace ERTMS before then.

 

[rebmcr]

HST drivers - what are these?

They're people who sit at the front of a Class 43 and operate the controls.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Just to be clear "advanced version of TPWS" is true in the sense that it does the same thing (applying the brakes if travelling too fast) and more so, but ATP is a totally separate system from TPWS and was not developed from it. In fact ATP came first and TPWS came later when it was found to be too costly and impractical to extend ATP to all routes and trains. It is estimated that at least 70% of the casualties that ATP would save if it was fitted network wide were saved by fitting TPWS instead. Ultimately ERTMS is planned to supersede both, but it will take many years and quite possibly something else will replace ERTMS before then.

Pretty sure I was giving a simple explanation for the 'layman' though. Put very basically, it is in essence an advanced version of TPWS, TPWS being the 'budget' version. TPWS is more than sufficient as a safety system and has proved its worth on many occasions, I actually think it should be implemented in many more locations than it is now (in an ideal world where the budget was much higher).

 

[nat67]

The startup procedure of a HST goes like this. The key goes in the place next to the throttle. A blue button is held in which kicks the starter motor in. The a red button is pressed then a white button with a dot in the middle is pressed
after. Finally another button which opens up the engine.

 

[Blaahh]

They're people who sit at the front of a Class 43 and operate the controls.

That made me laugh! Fascinating post anyway. thank you.

 

[DanDaDriver]

The startup procedure of a HST goes like this. The key goes in the place next to the throttle. A blue button is held in which kicks the starter motor in. The a red button is pressed then a white button with a dot in the middle is pressed
after. Finally another button which opens up the engine.

That’s not any HST I’ve ever driven.

 

[nat67]

That’s not any HST I’ve ever driven.

Can tell me as I have obviously forgotten.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Can tell me as I have obviously forgotten.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, as there’s lots of different mods. But all the ones I’ve signed have been “Engine start,” held down for 30ish seconds while it primes and does it’s thing.

I never signed anything pre-Woodward governor though. Which is why I’m not saying you’re wrong.

 

[scotraildriver]

The start procedure on our Scotrail ones is hold the start button until it starts! That is all . The white dot button mentioned is the ETS which would be switched on in the rear power car once it's running.

 

[nat67]

I’m not saying you’re wrong, as there’s lots of different mods. But all the ones I’ve signed have been “Engine start,” held down for 30ish seconds while it primes and does it’s thing.

I never signed anything pre-Woodward governor though. Which is why I’m not saying you’re wrong.

I believe the primer was a blue button this was on 43070 though.

 

[43096]

I believe the primer was a blue button this was on 43070 though.

Nope. Start procedure has been unchanged since build as described by others above.

 

[sw1ller]

Yeah, DAS is pretty much useless. Too many of our drivers use it to determine their stopping patterns which causes some fail to calls. The miles & chains only goes up in 20 chains so it’s good but not precise. (As good as actual mile posts though I suppose). For instance, mine told me to do 40mph between wolves and penkridge the other day so I was only 10 minutes late. I decided to ignore it and get there on time instead.

 

[Mordac]

Do you (drivers who've been replying) think when C-DAS (Connected DAS) comes in, that that will change your attitude to it? Say if it informs of you delays ahead?

 

[sw1ller]

Do you (drivers who've been replying) think when C-DAS (Connected DAS) comes in, that that will change your attitude to it? Say if it informs of you delays ahead?

If it’s improved and becomes a useful tool then why not. At the moment it’s too slow to load, doesn’t know what track you’re on half the time, tells you to do daft things like I’ve already stated and that’s if it even works at all.

I’ve never heard of C-DAS but I assume it’ll be connected to other trains around the country. This would only work if every train has it. I’m not a fan of coasting down the chat moss at 40mph at the moment as I don’t want to hold anything up behind me, I’d not like to be stuck behind another train coasting away. Bit of a SPAD risk too. But a connected system would take other trains time keeping into consideration so it sounds like it could work.

 

[DanDaDriver]

If it’s improved and becomes a useful tool then why not. At the moment it’s too slow to load, doesn’t know what track you’re on half the time, tells you to do daft things like I’ve already stated and that’s if it even works at all.

I’ve never heard of C-DAS but I assume it’ll be connected to other trains around the country. This would only work if every train has it. I’m not a fan of coasting down the chat moss at 40mph at the moment as I don’t want to hold anything up behind me, I’d not like to be stuck behind another train coasting away. Bit of a SPAD risk too. But a connected system would take other trains time keeping into consideration so it sounds like it could work.

Isn’t that basically ERTMS but with signals?

 

[edwin_m]

C-DAS probably doesn't need to be connected to all trains but it needs to connect to the signalling, ARS or traffic management system. It's supposed to do things like advising the driver they are going to get a red three signals ahead but if they run more gently in the meantime it should have cleared by the time they get to it and they will be able to run through without slowing down further. It doesn't override the signalling, so if something unexpected happens the signal in question might still be red anyway.

 

[Mordac]

C-DAS probably doesn't need to be connected to all trains but it needs to connect to the signalling, ARS or traffic management system. It's supposed to do things like advising the driver they are going to get a red three signals ahead but if they run more gently in the meantime it should have cleared by the time they get to it and they will be able to run through without slowing down further. It doesn't override the signalling, so if something unexpected happens the signal in question might still be red anyway.

Yeah, I should have explained further. As @edwin_m says, it doesn't override the signalling, so it does not require full ERTMS implementation. It just requires a link to the signalling centre.

 

[sw1ller]

That doesn’t sound like a good idea. This could encourage drivers to get in to bad habits and start expecting more signals to be proceed aspects and increase the SPAD risk. I don’t like the sound of it at all.

 

[nat67]

Nope. Start procedure has been unchanged since build as described by others above.

This was at Paddington on the blocks.

 

[43096]

This was at Paddington on the blocks.

I think I know what you have seen...

Start procedure for the driver in very simple terms (a full prep is much longer) is:
- Key in the desk
- Press and hold in "Engines start" until the engine starts. The actual process varies by engine type fitted, but the process for the drivers has been kept the same. For a Valenta engine power car, the start function commenced by running the lubricating oil pump until oil pressure reaches 6psi; the fuel priming pump then starts and runs for at least 8secs before the starter motor is then energised (from the batteries) and will disengage once engine speed reaches around 200rpm and the engine then fires. Once the oil pressure reaches 25-30psi the "engine stopped" light on the desk will go out and the "Engines start" button can be released. If the engine fails to start within 15sec of the starter motor starting, then the start procedure is aborted automatically and a time delay relay means another start cannot be attempted for 20secs. MTU and VP185 engine start sequences will be different, but for the driver the process is the same - finger on the button until the "engine stopped" light goes out.

What you have then seen on power cars at the blocks at Padd is the driver turning over the train supply to the rear power car by pressing the "Train supply off" button which drops out the ETS (in this case from the arriving rear/country end power car), before "Train supply on" is pressed to re-establish ETS from what is now the rear (London end) power car. Doing that increases engine rpm on that power car to the equivalent of notch 2. You have certainly not seen this happen then the engine being started!

 

[jj95419]

Thanks for your replies guys, I’m glad this has prompted quite an interesting discussion!