HST power cars on the Sleeper?

[talltim]

Apparently the 57 on the Cornwall-London sleeper failed last night at Liskeard and two HST power cars were used to pull the train to Paddington, making up half an hours lateness in the process. Anyone have any more info?

 

[willc789]

I did see this on the way into Paddington this morning but thought I was seeing things!

I'm sure it must have been covered several times before, but is there anything stopping HST's working the service as a set?

 

[HSTEd]

Loco hauled Mark 3s would need rewiring to draw power from the HST power cars.

Other than that not much, I proposed this a while back since it would allow the combined luggage/seated vehicle to be replaced with a regular seating vehicle and allow whatever HSTs were convenient to beu sed on the service rather than a dedicated microfleet.

 

[455driver]

Looks like the 57 failed at Liskeard (left 25 late), limped to Plymouth (arrived 25 late) PCs attached and left plymouth at 0133 (102 late), routed via B&H instead of Bristol, arrived Reading at 0436 (32 late) and Paddington 0516 (7 early).

 

[rebmcr]

How were the 43s arranged in the consist?

 

[sprinterguy]

How were the 43s arranged in the consist?

Coupled back to back at the front of the train, using the emergency coupler bar to hook up to the class 57.

The power cars involved were 43005 and 43159 if anybody wants to know, and 57602 was apparently the errant class 57.

 

[ryan125hst]

Loco hauled Mark 3s would need rewiring to draw power from the HST power cars.

Other than that not much, I proposed this a while back since it would allow the combined luggage/seated vehicle to be replaced with a regular seating vehicle and allow whatever HSTs were convenient to beu sed on the service rather than a dedicated microfleet.

On that note, what was providing the Electric Train Supply to the coaches? No one has said that the train was ECS, so i'm guessing it was still in service?

 

[theblackwatch]

On that note, what was providing the Electric Train Supply to the coaches? No one has said that the train was ECS, so i'm guessing it was still in service?

It would be either the 57 (ticking over, depending on what its fault was), or nothing.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm sure it must have been covered several times before, but is there anything stopping HST's working the service as a set?

It's been done a few times in the last couple of years.

Not very good as it means no beds and everyone having their eyes dazzled all night, but a lot better than a complete cancellation I suppose.

 

[talltim]

It would be either the 57 (ticking over, depending on what its fault was), or nothing.

The 57 had failed GSMR (radio) so all the mechanical parts were working.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's been done a few times in the last couple of years.

Not very good as it means no beds and everyone having their eyes dazzled all night, but a lot better than a complete cancellation I suppose.

I think he meant as an HST sleeper set, power cars at the ends of the existing rake. However as well as the wiring in the loco hauled Mk3s aren't the seating coaches Mk2s? (nothing to stop you through wiring those either tho)
However cool it would be, its a bit of a waste of 125mph capable power cars.

 

[The Ham]

I think he meant as an HST sleeper set, power cars at the ends of the existing rake. However as well as the wiring in the loco hauled Mk3s aren't the seating coaches Mk2s? (nothing to stop you through wiring those either tho)
However cool it would be, its a bit of a waste of 125mph capable power cars.

But it does of course depend on what other use they would be put to post IEP, I'd suggest being able to run the sleepers fast if needed to make up time would be a better use than pulling freight.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think he meant as an HST sleeper set, power cars at the ends of the existing rake. However as well as the wiring in the loco hauled Mk3s aren't the seating coaches Mk2s?

The seated carriages on the FGW Sleeper are mark 3s.

 

[ainsworth74]

However as well as the wiring in the loco hauled Mk3s aren't the seating coaches Mk2s? (nothing to stop you through wiring those either tho) However cool it would be, its a bit of a waste of 125mph capable power cars.

The Night Riveria is Mk3s throughout its the Scottish Sleepers which are mixed Mk3 and Mk2 rakes (though the SLEP/SLE/SLEDs are all Mk3s).

A waste of 125mph power cars but there would be advantages to be sure (for one thing it would reduce noise in the cabin as you would have transformers or whatever they are going under the floor anymore!) in terms of optomising on board space and operational flexibility (no shunting moves into/out of stations).

 

[bnm]

it would reduce noise in the cabin as you would have transformers or whatever they are going under the floor anymore!

Assume you meant wouldn't.

They are motor-generator phase converters. Converting the single phase electric supply from the loco to three phase.

Class 43s already supply three phase and it would mean a major re-wiring job of the Sleeper stock, and the removal of the motor-generators, for them to be hauled by 43s. Not in itself too much of a technical problem - it has been done to former loco hauled Mk3 day coaches - but it would mean reduced capacity whilst the MK3 Sleeper coaches are converted. Doing it one at a time would take forever and be rather costly. It's much easier when the conversion is being done on stored stock, as was the case with the former loco-hauled Mk3s.

 

[willc789]

A waste of 125mph power cars but there would be advantages to be sure (for one thing it would reduce noise in the cabin as you would have transformers or whatever they are going under the floor anymore!) in terms of optomising on board space and operational flexibility (no shunting moves into/out of stations).

Whilst it is very much overkill, having the redundancy in the 2 power cars, and 125mph capability to make up time would be a great benefit. With the introduction of IEP, surely there will be a surplus of recently re-engined and refurbished power cars?

 

[Eagle]

Make up time? Why would you need that? Have you seen how big the allowances and layovers are in the sleeper's timetable? :P

 

[HSTEd]

Make up time? Why would you need that? Have you seen how big the allowances and layovers are in the sleeper's timetable? :P

Doing it in the fully lit seated vehicle (as I had no reservation) was rather depressing since it takes so long to get anywhere.

 

[ainsworth74]

Make up time? Why would you need that? Have you seen how big the allowances and layovers are in the sleeper's timetable?

Moreover does the above poster wish the passengers to sleep on the sleeper or not? 125mph would not be conclusive to a good nights sleep!

 

[Erniescooper]

Given how unreliable GSMR is being at the moment maybe FGW should follow Hull trains example and buy some mobile GSMR equipment and keep it at strategic points which would allow the trains to stay in service till end of day.

 

[edwin_m]

Whilst it is very much overkill, having the redundancy in the 2 power cars, and 125mph capability to make up time would be a great benefit. With the introduction of IEP, surely there will be a surplus of recently re-engined and refurbished power cars?

But would it have that redundancy? If I recall an HST with one failed power car has to be assisted on the South Devon banks, and according to Wikipedia the Sleeper can load nine on busy nights.

 

[HSTEd]

But would it have that redundancy? If I recall an HST with one failed power car has to be assisted on the South Devon banks, and according to Wikipedia the Sleeper can load nine on busy nights.

Well if the power car fails after the Devon Banks then there is no problem.

Rather better than it manages currently (if it fails you have to wait for assistance in all cases).

 

[ryan125hst]

It would be either the 57 (ticking over, depending on what its fault was), or nothing.

Do you mean the 57 or no service? They wouldn't be able to run without ETS surely as there would be no heating/air conditioning, catering or (once the batteries running the emergency lighting has gone flat) lights.

The 57 had failed GSMR (radio) so all the mechanical parts were working.

I guess the 57 was idling to provide the ETS then.

 

[asylumxl]

It's a shame there aren't many spare MK3s. Otherwise surely it would be possible to create a coach that converts the electrical supply, eliminating the need for rewiring of the sleeper stock.

 

[The Ham]

Moreover does the above poster wish the passengers to sleep on the sleeper or not? 125mph would not be conclusive to a good nights sleep!

The point I was making, wasn;t that they would run at 125mph, rather that it would be a better use to run them on a service which may need to run at >80mph rather than at a maximum of 75mph as could be case if they were used for freight.

 

[edwin_m]

You'd still have to wire the HST control cables through the coaches, unless the translator coach (one at each end) also converted the control signals into TDM or similar that could feed down an existing train line.

 

[asylumxl]

You'd still have to wire the HST control cables through the coaches, unless the translator coach (one at each end) also converted the control signals into TDM or similar that could feed down an existing train line.

What about a wireless solution? With remote locomotive control becoming more common in the USA and Europe I don't see it being in the realm of impossibility.

 

[edwin_m]

Not impossible but the ERTMS fitment to 158s shows the difficult of retrospectively fitting vital control kit into old trains.

 

[asylumxl]

Not impossible but the ERTMS fitment to 158s shows the difficult of retrospectively fitting vital control kit into old trains.

But then the HSTs also have the parcel area which could certainly be utilised for the various racks needed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You'd still have to wire the HST control cables through the coaches, unless the translator coach (one at each end) also converted the control signals into TDM or similar that could feed down an existing train line.

Some HST power cars have had TDM fitted before (you can recognise them by the buffers below the head/tail lights ), I don't think it would be to hard to do it again.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Looks like the 57 failed at Liskeard (left 25 late), limped to Plymouth (arrived 25 late) PCs attached and left plymouth at 0133 (102 late), routed via B&H instead of Bristol, arrived Reading at 0436 (32 late) and Paddington 0516 (7 early).

Sorry, I've had a mind blank, what's B&H again?

The power cars involved were 43005 and 43159 if anybody wants to know.

Hmm....funny that....because at Cardiff on Thursday 43159 was leading a set through Cardiff with this working, which I've never seen before.