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HST sets and originally planned formations - 2 catering vehicles for XC as well?

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Commoner

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Thanks, I hadn't realised it was converted so early. I've found a couple of photos online and hadn't realised either that initially it had no yellow stripe to above the lounge accommodation. Other points to note - all doors have 'Private' in white letters on the red stripe and all doors have handles - usually on HST catering cars the doors adjacent to the catering area couldn't be opened externally and were emergency release only on the inside.

20232998012_3dd8d8fe3d_h.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20232998012/

post-4127-0-65080100-1537104732.jpg

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137574-hst-tluk-and-tcsd/

Nice shots, the second one at Reading being one of mine, from Friday 20th March 1987. Marshalled in Set 034 with 43175 in shot working the 15.00 Paddington-Swansea.
 
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Helvellyn

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Nice shots, the second one at Reading being one of mine, from Friday 20th March 1987. Marshalled in Set 034 with 43175 in shot working the 15.00 Paddington-Swansea.
I've just realised the first picture must have been when first painted in InterCity Executive colours because the light grey band extends above the cant rail stripe. In your picture it is restricted to just below the cant rail stripe.
 

Commoner

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I seem to recall reading that 42111/112 (and maybe 113?) were given 'W' prefixes at Derby - it may be that @Commoner gave me the info.

Think it was the error on the part of the painter. 42092 was incorrectly prefixed E and mistakenly placed in a delivery rake that was loco-hauled to Heaton on 11/8/77. Vehicle was tripped back to York and inserted into a set (PCs 43058/59) returning to Derby from its initial commissioning run to Darlington and back on 23/8/77. 42092 was delivered to the WR in September still with the E prefix in place and ran with it well into 1978.
 

theblackwatch

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Think it was the error on the part of the painter. 42092 was incorrectly prefixed E and mistakenly placed in a delivery rake that was loco-hauled to Heaton on 11/8/77. Vehicle was tripped back to York and inserted into a set (PCs 43058/59) returning to Derby from its initial commissioning run to Darlington and back on 23/8/77. 42092 was delivered to the WR in September still with the E prefix in place and ran with it well into 1978.

That's a new one to me - every day is an education! So, it seems a painter's error resulted in a coach being delivered to the wrong depot/region. :lol:
 

Commoner

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I've just realised the first picture must have been when first painted in InterCity Executive colours because the light grey band extends above the cant rail stripe. In your picture it is restricted to just below the cant rail stripe.
Yes I think you are right Helvellyn. At some point it must have received a C4 overhaul and repaint between 83 and 87. Post-85 I imagine when the livery was applied fleet wide and area of black was lowered. The experimental executive livery threw up quite a few variations one way and another.
 

Commoner

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That's a new one to me - every day is an education! So, it seems a painter's error resulted in a coach being delivered to the wrong depot/region. :lol:
I think the error may have stemmed from the fact that had the WR not had not had the additional 42091-110 added to its initial order, the vehicles from 42091 would have gone to the ER. Perhaps the painter was following an old list and put an E on it. 42091 was W prefixed, so it is a bit of a mystery. What's also interesting about the shot of 42111 is that W42111 is stamped on frame below the gangway end.
 

Helvellyn

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What's also interesting about the shot of 42111 is that W42111 is stamped on frame below the gangway end.
I notice the data panel also states '253 TS' (whilst the one in your pic of 40513 is partially visible stating '253 TL'). I'll have to remember that if the HST LHCS/DEMU thread comes back to life.

Yes I think you are right Helvellyn. At some point it must have received a C4 overhaul and repaint between 83 and 87. Post-85 I imagine when the livery was applied fleet wide and area of black was lowered. The experimental executive livery threw up quite a few variations one way and another.
With regards your last point didn't it just!

I think Mark 3A FO M11011 gained the same style livery as 40513. I also think it received a prototype universal toilet.

253028 (43125/43126, 41121/41122, 40322, 42251-42253, 44028) also carried it. As well as the power cars not having the body side grills painted dark grey the first class IC70 seats were replaced with IC80 ones, albeit in orange tiger stripe moquette. I need to dig out the InterCity 21 booklet I have with a picture.
 

hexagon789

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40501 became 977984 for the NMT
40505 became 41179 (insurance replacement for 41049/050 after Southall), later 46015
40511 became 41180 (insurance replacement for 41049/050 after Southall), currently at Wabtec Doncaster for conversion to TGFB for ScotRail

The rest of them presumably became Mk3a RFM?
 

hexagon789

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I think Mark 3A FO M11011 gained the same style livery as 40513. I also think it received a prototype universal toilet.

Yes, similar design to that which later went into 158s and the 442s iirc, so no large curved sliding door and smaller than modern ones
 

WesternLancer

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Thanks, I hadn't realised it was converted so early. I've found a couple of photos online and hadn't realised either that initially it had no yellow stripe to above the lounge accommodation. Other points to note - all doors have 'Private' in white letters on the red stripe and all doors have handles - usually on HST catering cars the doors adjacent to the catering area couldn't be opened externally and were emergency release only on the inside.

20232998012_3dd8d8fe3d_h.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20232998012/

post-4127-0-65080100-1537104732.jpg

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137574-hst-tluk-and-tcsd/
Nice pics - what was the interior layout like? Does anyone know.
 

43096

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As promised, update on where the production HST TRUKs are now...
40501 - 977984 (in use, NMT)
40502 - 10204 (demonstrator vehicle at 3M, Bracknell)
40503 - 10205 (Arriva owned, at Battlefield line?)
40504 - 10202 (preserved, 125 Group)
40505 - 41179 - 46015 (stored)
40506 - 10203 - 10412 (preserved, Northampton & Lamport Railway)
40507 - 10206 (preserved, 125 Group)
40508 - 10209 (cut JT Landscapes, Caerwent 04/2005)
40509 - 10210 (cut JT Landscapes, Caerwent 04/2005)
40510 - 10211 (DB Cargo company train)
40511 - 41180 (at Wabtec Doncaster for ScotRail TGFB conversion)
40512 - 2916 (in use, Royal Train)
40513 - IE6402 (preserved, West Clare Railway, Moyasta)
40514 - 2917 (in use, Royal Train)
40515 - 2918 (stored, Royal Train)
40516 - 10207 (cut JT Landscapes, Caerwent 04/2005)
40517 - 10208 - 10272 (in use, Chiltern)
40518 - 2919 (stored, Royal Train)
40519 - 10200 - 10411 (out of use at Crewe, for LSL?)
40520 - 10201 (cut Booth, Rotherham 02/2019)
 

hexagon789

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From memory...
12 to RFM
4 Royal Train
2 TF conversion
1 NMT
1 Ireland

When I get a chance later I’ll post a full list of them.

I'd forgotten about the NMT. Were the two TF conversions for the MML by any chance?
 

hexagon789

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As promised, update on where the production HST TRUKs are now...
40501 - 977984 (in use, NMT)
40502 - 10204 (demonstrator vehicle at 3M, Bracknell)
40503 - 10205 (Arriva owned, at Battlefield line?)
40504 - 10202 (preserved, 125 Group)
40505 - 41179 - 46015 (stored)
40506 - 10203 - 10412 (preserved, Northampton & Lamport Railway)
40507 - 10206 (preserved, 125 Group)
40508 - 10209 (cut JT Landscapes, Caerwent 04/2005)
40509 - 10210 (cut JT Landscapes, Caerwent 04/2005)
40510 - 10211 (DB Cargo company train)
40511 - 41180 (at Wabtec Doncaster for ScotRail TGFB conversion)
40512 - 2916 (in use, Royal Train)
40513 - IE6402 (preserved, West Clare Railway, Moyasta)
40514 - 2917 (in use, Royal Train)
40515 - 2918 (stored, Royal Train)
40516 - 10207 (cut JT Landscapes, Caerwent 04/2005)
40517 - 10208 - 10272 (in use, Chiltern)
40518 - 2919 (stored, Royal Train)
40519 - 10200 - 10411 (out of use at Crewe, for LSL?)
40520 - 10201 (cut Booth, Rotherham 02/2019)

That's great, thanks
 

Helvellyn

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Nice pics - what was the interior layout like? Does anyone know.
I really must dig out the previously mentioned InterCity 21 booklet because I think that has an interior picture of Terry Wogan in 40513 in it. In the meantime I found this You Tube clip of Sir Terry interviewing Terry Jones on board though.
 

WesternLancer

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I really must dig out the previously mentioned InterCity 21 booklet because I think that has an interior picture of Terry Wogan in 40513 in it. In the meantime I found this You Tube clip of Sir Terry interviewing Terry Jones on board though.
That clip was useful, shame no pull backs to see more of the carriage. Booklet sounds great! Thanks
 

Helvellyn

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So much later conversions. In that case were the first TRUK conversions purely to RFM?
Yes, although not quite that simple:
  • 40519/40520 were converted first as prototype vehicles, and as RSMs with 24 low backed seats (picture coming in a later post!), and numbered 10200/10201.
  • The remaining ten vehicles listed above were then converted as the first production conversions (along with 18 Mk 3A FOs and all 28 Mk 3A RFBs), numbered 10202-10211.
  • The four vehicles listed above as being converted for Royal use were all taken out of service at the same time as those to be converted to LHCS, but were converted for Royal use at Wolverton over a few years (possibly one at a time).
  • This left the for remaining vehicles - 40501/505/511 as TRFKs for use in the two East Coast Pullmans and 40513 as the unique TLFK (or Executive Saloon).
 

43096

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So much later conversions. In that case were the first TRUK conversions purely to RFM?
Yes, that's correct. RFM and the four Royal Train conversions were done around the same time (mid-1980s). That left 40501/505/511 as the three TRFKs for the Pullman sets and 40513 as the "executive saloon". Those four weren't converted to other uses until much later: the two TFs around 1998/99, the Irish Rail export around 2003/4 and the NMT conversion in 2002/3.
 

Helvellyn

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So the booklet I have been referring to is InterCity, 21 years of progress which was actually published by Ian Allan (ISBN 0-7110-1751-4) in cooperation with the British Railways Board. With all the images I'll insert thumbnails so just click to see the full sized image.

IC21 Cover.jpg
The cover photo shows at the top an InterCity Executive liveried HST before the bodyside grills were painted dark grey. The power car is 43151, one of the GWML spares, so I assume that is why there is no set numer.
The cover photo at the bottom shows a typical WCML loco-hauled set for the mid-1980s but the second coach is M11011, mentioned above as carrying the original InterCity Executive scheme that had a light grey band above the cant rail.

IC21 Page 4.jpg
I've included this page because it shows a ECML set with two catering vehicles in InterCity Executive colours. The third coach is a TRUK and the fourth is a TRFB. I think this might have been one of the Pullman sets before the addition of the third TF (and removal of a second TS to keep the formation 2+8). My reasoning for this is that if you look at the front of the second TF the half width window (toilet or luggage rack) is actually a hull height frosted glazed unit, rather than the usual split window with the upper half glazed. This indicates it is a TF that has had a luggage rack removed and replaced by a payphone. Whilst one TF in every GWML set had this done, only the two Pullman sets on the ECML received payphones. So the TF is either 41041 or 41066.

IC21 Page 26.jpg
Mentioning payphones here is one! In the TFs so fitted one luggage rack was removed and as the image above shows the normal split window was replaced by a full height frosted one. I believe this is from TF 41121 (253028), the first set to gain InterCity Executive colours. I've mentioned in an early post that this set gained IC80 seats (as used in the APT) as an experiment, albeit trimmed in what was termed tiger stripe moquette (orange and black horizontal stripes). You can just make out the headrest of the first seating bay that does have a striped moquette. Also, you can just make out the top of the armrest adjacent to the aisle. It starts to curve, which was a feature of the IC80 armrest (see images below) rather than the square end of the IC70 seat. (I thought this book had a picture of the IC80 seats, but it must be in something else I have buried away)

IC21 Page 28.1.jpg IC21 Page 39.jpg
Two pictures here showing the interior of the unique TLFK 40513. The first looks to be a staged publicity shot showing a 'typical' mid-1980s business use of the Executive Saloon; the second is a shot from the interior of the the filming of Terry Wogan interviewing Terry Jones. Unfortunately neither show the conference table that the diagram book image has in, but I assume the layout could be configured based on the client's needs.

IC21 Page 21.jpg IC21 Page 1.jpg
So at first glance these are the standard InterCity interiors from the mid-1980s onwards, with dusk pink moquette in First Class and red (officially 'Red Dogger') in Standard Class. However, what these two pictures show are facelifted coaches rather than refurbished ones. What's the difference? Well the first coaches that received InterCity Executive colours retained the original seat squabs. So in First Class you still have the original bulky white fabric covered head rest cushion, whilst in Standard Class the seat squabs still have the slightly rounded headrests of the original seats. When the full refurbishment kicked in First Class seats got a slightly bigger winged headrest, and the headrest cushion was less bulky and trimmed in the same moquette. Also in First Class carpeted side and end panels were introduced - the coach here has white panelling. In Standard Class as well as redesigned seat squabs with a flatter headrest half the seats became airline style increasing the seat count from 72 to 76 in a normal coach. In the photo here you can see the seats are all around tables still (bar the four pairs in the centre either side of the mid-coach partition that would be behind the photographer).

IC21 Page 28.2.jpg IC21 Page 25.jpg
Moving away from HSTs these two images are of Mark 3B FOs. Judging by the embroidered antimacassars in the first picture and the service in the second picture I am guessing these are both the Pullman variant. You can see the IC80 seats (note the curve to the armrest that makes me think the payphone photo is 41121). I'd actually forgotten that the Mark 3Bs had a brown moquette (including the side walls and end panel carpeting), albeit to the same design as the pink used on the iC70 seats as part of the refurbishment of the Mark 2F/3/3A fleets.

IC21 Page 31.jpg
This final image has a HST connection because it is an interior photo of either 10200 or 10201 (converted from TRUKs 40519 and 40520). I know it is one of these two coaches because of the low backed seating, which was fitted when initially converted and they were classified as RSMs (Restaurant Buffet Standard (Modular)). The whole concept was branded 'Cuisine 2000', which was to introduce a modular catering concept to the WCML (i.e. various things prepped at catering depots on route and everything loaded in trolleys). The original aim must have been to have the restaurant seating a bit like a Mark 1 RBR, with low backed seats so customers just used them when having a meal. However, the production conversions saw the vehicles classified as RFMs, with 24 First Class seats (IC70 style). Overhead luggage racks were also fitted - note they are not fitted in the RSM. At some point 10200/10201 gained IC70 seats, but I think they remained RSMs until their first works overhaul and officially became RFMs (albeit with a different diagram number).
 

dubscottie

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Here is a pic of the Executive Saloon showing the table (From Janes Railway Year, 3rd edition, Murry Brown)
EX coach.png

Next is two pics showing the Trial HST interiors as fitted to the first InterCity liveried set. B&W pic is first class, colour pic is standard class. (From Modern Railways Dec 1983) Both pics from BR.
Trial First HST.pngTrial Standard HST.png

Next is the trail 442 interior as fitted to 40516 (From Motive Power Monthly Jan 1987) Pic BREL
442 Prototype.png

The Aug 1986 Modern Railways has an article describing in detail the conversion and operation of the modular catering conversions (10200/10201) that are in Helvellyns post above.
 

Helvellyn

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Here is a pic of the Executive Saloon showing the table (From Janes Railway Year, 3rd edition, Murry Brown)
View attachment 76805

Next is two pics showing the Trial HST interiors as fitted to the first InterCity liveried set. B&W pic is first class, colour pic is standard class. (From Modern Railways Dec 1983) Both pics from BR.
View attachment 76806View attachment 76807

Next is the trail 442 interior as fitted to 40516 (From Motive Power Monthly Jan 1987) Pic BREL
View attachment 76808

The Aug 1986 Modern Railways has an article describing in detail the conversion and operation of the modular catering conversions (10200/10201) that are in Helvellyns post above.
The TLFK picture must have been as converted because that lighting unit on the roof has changed to a Mark 3B style in the pics I posted.

So glad you found the interior pictures of 253028. The first class picture is the one o had seen but had never seen the standard class picture. I was totally unaware IC80 seating had been installed in Standard as well - do you know if it was to all three TS vehicles and TGS?

I'd also be interested in that Modular Catering article. Might have to see if I can find that issue on eBay.
 

dubscottie

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The TLFK picture must have been as converted because that lighting unit on the roof has changed to a Mark 3B style in the pics I posted.

So glad you found the interior pictures of 253028. The first class picture is the one o had seen but had never seen the standard class picture. I was totally unaware IC80 seating had been installed in Standard as well - do you know if it was to all three TS vehicles and TGS?

I'd also be interested in that Modular Catering article. Might have to see if I can find that issue on eBay.

The book that I got the pic of the TLFK from was published in Feb 1984 so it would have been when first converted.

According to the article regarding the HST seats, 2 sets were modified. All the first/buffet coaches and one TS of each set were fitted with ex-APT seating. The other TS were given a 76 seat layout using the existing IC70 seats with new covers. The TGS was unaltered.

I am 99% sure that I have seen a pic of the other TS coaches somewhere. The blue tables/bulkheads were retained but the seat fabric was plain red IIRC.

I can scan that article tomorrow (or later today as it is now o_O). Should be OK with copyright as its for "historical and educational purposes" but always give full credit to the publication anyway.

Found this online also. Working instructions for the TLFK - Screenshot 2020-04-19 at 04.29.05.png
 
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Helvellyn

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According to the article regarding the HST seats, 2 sets were modified. All the first/buffet coaches and one TS of each set were fitted with ex-APT seating. The other TS were given a 76 seat layout using the existing IC70 seats with new covers. The TGS was unaltered.

I am 99% sure that I have seen a pic of the other TS coaches somewhere. The blue tables/bulkheads were retained but the seat fabric was plain red IIRC.
Interesting that two sets were modified.

My 1985 Platform 5 combined volume shows 41121/41122 as being fitted with APT style seats (ie IC80) but no mention for the TRUB. Given it was unclassified keeping its IC70 seats might have made sense. It also shows TS vehicles 42251-42253 as being 76S but no note that one was fitted with APT style seats. So that covers 253028 but no mention of any other set.

The 1986 Combined Volume shows 41121/41122 as refurbished (no mention of APT seats) but the only other WR TFs in InterCity are 41125/41126 (253030) and they are shown as facelifted, which makes me think original IC70 seat squabs in the new dusk pink moquette. The TS vehicles (42259-42261) from 253030 have also gone to a 76S layout.

So whilst 253028 seems to have definitely been modified when it gained InterCity Executive colours it's not clear what the identity of the second set was.
 

theblackwatch

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Well some fascinating archive stuff has appears since I looked at this thread before going to bed last night!

I had always assumed that 253028 & 030 received the same treatment, but perhaps I was wrong. One thing I am slightly more confident of is that I think the first sets to be dealt with in the main refurbishment/IC repainting programme (ie those from 1985 onwards) received what @Helvellyn describes as a 'facelift' rather than a 'refurbishment' - in standard class at least. I will have to look in my P5 books and see if there is any differentiation between the two at all.
 

Commoner

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Well some fascinating archive stuff has appears since I looked at this thread before going to bed last night!

I had always assumed that 253028 & 030 received the same treatment, but perhaps I was wrong. One thing I am slightly more confident of is that I think the first sets to be dealt with in the main refurbishment/IC repainting programme (ie those from 1985 onwards) received what @Helvellyn describes as a 'facelift' rather than a 'refurbishment' - in standard class at least. I will have to look in my P5 books and see if there is any differentiation between the two at all.

On the WR the sets initially outshopped from 1985 onwardsi n executive livery received C2 overhauls which was a general/heavy repair. Perhaps the closest you could get to a Refurb?
 
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