HST sets and originally planned formations - 2 catering vehicles for XC as well?

[JonathanH]

The original plan (dream?) was:
27 - Western batch 1
42 - ECML
16 - Western batch 2
36 - CrossCountry
10 - Midland Main Line
30 - Trans-Pennine and Scottish internal.

If that could have happened where would the Mark 2d / 2e fleet have ended up? (And 2fs for that matter if APT has happened.) Would it have seen 'early Mark 2s' gone by the mid-1980s?

 

[hexagon789]

A few random unit formations from July 1979. Note I've not included the regional prefix letter unless out of region. The * symbol indicates the kitchen or buffet end of the vehicle.

WR
43006 41007 41008 *40003 42011 42086 42010 42009 43007
43021 41021 41022 40010* 42093 42030 42031 42032 43020
43028 41029 41030 *40014 42097 42042 42043 42044 43029
43014 41015 41016 *40007 42090 42021 42022 42023 43120
43018 41043 41044 40307* 42100 42064 42053 42063 43042
43016 41017 41018 40303* 42091 42024 42025 42026 43017

ER/ScR
43098 41099 41100 40311* 42199 42196 42197 42198 42200 43099
43089 41089 41090 *40517 42176 42233 40034* 42177 42178 43088
43071 41071 41072 *40508 42139 42140 40025* 42141 42142 43070
43064 41075 41076 40510* 42147 42148 40027* 42149 42150 43078
43076 41077 41078 *40511 42151 42152 40028* 42153 42154 43077
43079 W41132 41110 40316* 42221 42222 42223 42224 42225 43107

Those are certainly the planned formations, but if I can find the blasted thing I have a list of some actual formations from 1976 which are not as uniform as that

 

[hexagon789]

If that could have happened where would the Mark 2d / 2e fleet have ended up? (And 2fs for that matter if APT has happened.) Would it have seen 'early Mark 2s' gone by the mid-1980s?

Perhaps they would've gone straight into Mk3 production?

 

[theblackwatch]

Those are certainly the planned formations, but if I can find the blasted thing I have a list of some actual formations from 1976 which are not as uniform as that

They're not all quite as planned - 253007 had a spare power car in it, 253021 had an incorrect power car and TS and a couple of the '254' sets had an incorrect power car and coach (including one with a WR vehicle - I think around 9 coaches, 3xTF and 6xTS, from a couple of unformed WR West of England sets were loaned to Neville Hill for a few months).

 

[hexagon789]

They're not all quite as planned - 253007 had a spare power car in it, 253021 had an incorrect power car and TS and a couple of the '254' sets had an incorrect power car and coach (including one with a WR vehicle - I think around 9 coaches, 3xTF and 6xTS, from a couple of unformed WR West of England sets were loaned to Neville Hill for a few months).

Sorry, I think I more meant that they aren't quite the as introduced formations. As I mentioned up-thread many had only a TRSB, some had two - one in place of a TRUK; and one or two sets were even only 2+6.

 

[Trainfan2019]

What do all the abbreviations mean please? I don't understand what any mean apart from xc and br. Thanks.

 

[theblackwatch]

What do all the abbreviations mean please? I don't understand what any mean apart from xc and br. Thanks.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations

 

[hexagon789]

What do all the abbreviations mean please? I don't understand what any mean apart from xc and br. Thanks.

Which abbreviations?

 

[Helvellyn]

What do all the abbreviations mean please? I don't understand what any mean apart from xc and br. Thanks.

So various have been used in this thread including:

• ER - Eastern Region
• WR - Western Regional
• ECML - East Coast Main Line
• GWML - Great Western Main Line
• MML - Midland Mainline
• NE-SW - North-East - South-West (route designation for first batch of HSTs for what became CrossCountry)

Depots:

• BN - Bounds Green (London)
• EC - Craigentinny (Edinburgh)
• HT - Heaton (Newcastle)
• LA - Laira (Plymouth)
• NL - Neville Hill (Leeds)
• OO - Old Oak Common (London)
• PM - St Philip's Marsh (Bristol)

Vehicle Types

• DMB - Driving Motor Brake
• DM - Driving Motor
• TF - Trailer First
• TGS - Trailer Guard Standard
• TS - Trailer Standard
• TLFK - Trailer Lounge First Kitchen (i.e. 40513 InterCity Executive Saloon)
• TRB - Trailer Restaurant [First] Buffet (402xx)
• TRFB - Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (407xx)
• TRFK - Trailer Restaurant First Kitchen (405xx)
• TRSB - Trailer Restaurant Standard Buffet (400xx / 404xx)
• TRUB - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet (403xx)
• TRUK - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen (405xx)

 

[Western Sunset]

When did 2nd class become standard? Anyone remember?

 

[hexagon789]

When did 2nd class become standard? Anyone remember?

11th May 1987

 

[hexagon789]

So various have been used in this thread including:

• ER - Eastern Region
• WR - Western Regional
• ECML - East Coast Main Line
• GWML - Great Western Main Line
• MML - Midland Mainline
• NE-SW - North-East - South-West (route designation for first batch of HSTs for what became CrossCountry)

Depots:

• BN - Bounds Green (London)
• EC - Craigentinny (Edinburgh)
• HT - Heaton (Newcastle)
• LA - Laira (Plymouth)
• NL - Neville Hill (Leeds)
• OO - Old Oak Common (London)
• PM - St Philip's Marsh (Bristol)

Vehicle Types

• DMB - Driving Motor Brake
• DM - Driving Motor
• TF - Trailer First
• TGS - Trailer Guard Standard
• TS - Trailer Standard
• TLFK - Trailer Lounge First Kitchen (i.e. 40513 InterCity Executive Saloon)
• TRB - Trailer Restaurant [First] Buffet (402xx)
• TRFB - Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (407xx)
• TRFK - Trailer Restaurant First Kitchen (405xx)
• TRSB - Trailer Restaurant Standard Buffet (400xx / 404xx)
• TRUB - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet (403xx)
• TRUK - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen (405xx)

Also:

ScR - Scottish Region
TRFM - Trailer Restaurant First Modular

 

[Western Sunset]

11th May 1987

Thanks Hex.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks Hex.

No problem, I'd guess that was the same date as the May timetable change that year

 

[43096]

As I mentioned earlier, I dug out the Modern Railway Pictorial on HSTs from 1983 over the weekend. I've taken copies of the two double A4 spreads of set formations. One is as planned for WR and ECML sets and a few variations from new to about 1980, the other is the formations at the end of 1982. A health warning with it, though - the editor was Colin Marsden.

 

[Cowley]

As I mentioned earlier, I dug out the Modern Railway Pictorial on HSTs from 1983 over the weekend. I've taken copies of the two double A4 spreads of set formations. One is as planned for WR and ECML sets and a few variations from new to about 1980, the other is the formations at the end of 1982. A health warning with it, though - the editor was Colin Marsden.
View attachment 77093View attachment 77094

Dawlish’s finest...

 

[hexagon789]

These are some set formations from I believe 1976, and show what I was trying to illustrate about the earliest sets in traffic. None have a TRUK, some are only 2+6 and one has two TRSB.

43002 42005 42004 40001 42003 41004 41003 43003 (Only 2+6)

43010 42017 42016 42015 42041 40002 41012 41011 43011

43012 42014 42020 42011 40006 41014 41013 43013 (Only 2+6)

43006 42035 42034 42033 42009 40003 41008 41007 43007

43018 42029 42028 42040 42027 40009 41020 41019 43019

43002 42005 42004 40001 42003 40011 41004 41003 43002 (Two TRSBs)

43003 42020 42019 42051(?) 42018 40006 41014 41013 43013

43021 41021 41012 40008 42047 42031 42051 42032 43020

 

[Trainfan2019]

So various have been used in this thread including:

• ER - Eastern Region
• WR - Western Regional
• ECML - East Coast Main Line
• GWML - Great Western Main Line
• MML - Midland Mainline
• NE-SW - North-East - South-West (route designation for first batch of HSTs for what became CrossCountry)

Depots:

• BN - Bounds Green (London)
• EC - Craigentinny (Edinburgh)
• HT - Heaton (Newcastle)
• LA - Laira (Plymouth)
• NL - Neville Hill (Leeds)
• OO - Old Oak Common (London)
• PM - St Philip's Marsh (Bristol)

Vehicle Types

• DMB - Driving Motor Brake
• DM - Driving Motor
• TF - Trailer First
• TGS - Trailer Guard Standard
• TS - Trailer Standard
• TLFK - Trailer Lounge First Kitchen (i.e. 40513 InterCity Executive Saloon)
• TRB - Trailer Restaurant [First] Buffet (402xx)
• TRFB - Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (407xx)
• TRFK - Trailer Restaurant First Kitchen (405xx)
• TRSB - Trailer Restaurant Standard Buffet (400xx / 404xx)
• TRUB - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet (403xx)
• TRUK - Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen (405xx)

That's great! Thanks for the list of abbreviations and their meanings. It was mainly the vehicle types and depots I was stuck on the most.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just managed to dig out my copy of the 1978 RCTS Coaching Stock Book and this lists 40 sets each with 1 TF in the formation on order which is presumably the full order BR wanted.
The final set formation being listed as 43232+41188+40375+42502/3/4/5/6+43231 with Power Cars 43233-236 as Spares. The TS's get into the high numbers due to no plans for the TGS's at this stage.

Interesting!

 

[Helvellyn]

If that could have happened where would the Mark 2d / 2e fleet have ended up? (And 2fs for that matter if APT has happened.) Would it have seen 'early Mark 2s' gone by the mid-1980s?

Well don't forget BR still (roughly) pursued a policy that InterCity stock should be in frontline service for approximately ten years then be cascaded. In the late 1970s you still had a lot of Mark 1s in service and sprinterisation wasn't even on the agenda.

So Mark 3s might have ended up in East Anglia by the mid-1980s (cascaded from the WCML by APT), whilst Mark 2Ds/2Es/2Fs could have been operating trains like Liverpool Street - Cambridge, Manchester - Cardiff, Waterloo - Exeter, Paddington - Oxford, Euston - Northampton, etc.

Sectorisation also put an end to many LHCS vehicles - not just from sprinterisation, or NSE's electrification schemes, but also from tightening up of diagrams and reducing train lengths. But the HST/APT plans were all before this so you would have just seen continued cascades.

The surplus of first class vehicles would have been even more pronounced though, whilst lack of air-conditioned brake vehicles would have seen the humble Mark 1 BG continue to be used in many a passenger rake.

 

[Commoner]

Thank you for linking and posting that. It's raised a query though as it seems that the first six WR sets (253022-253027) transferred to the ER for MML services in 1982 before the final three sets had been formed. The final three (of eighteen) NE-SW sets would have been 253056-253058 but there is no mention of this and just a statement that they entered service as 254044-254046, with three TS vehicles (42114/42142/42158) converted to TFs (41175-41177), which would give an initial nine 2+7 sets for MML services.

So, did 253056-253058 ever operate as intended or did they actually enter service as 254044-254046? If the latter I wonder if this could be a possible explanation for the "missing" Lot No. of 30965 - if it was known that three TS vehicles were to be converted to TFs (41175-41177) someone initially planned to allocate the conversion a Lot No. in a similar way to the five prototype vehicles being converted to TFs (41170-41174) under Lot No. 30967 but it ultimately never happened. Pure speculation on my part I know!

I am 99% confident that the three sets concerned never ran in 'NESW' formation - happy to be proved wrong though! One thing I also think, but am not quite as confident about, is that 253053-055 initially ran with 41172-41174 in their formations, with 41167-41169 replacing them soon after.

I'm not sure the 'conversions' of the three TSs to 41175-41177 even involved a works visit - they may have been done at Neville Hill? (If so, perhaps that is why a Lot Number was de-issued, it was realised they didn't need works attention?).

I also wonder if the ER set released for MML duties was 254013? This would explain the availability of TRUK 40513 for conversion to the Executive Saloon given that initially all the MML sets operated in 2+7 formation (so technically 253s!). I assume the TRSB, 40030, would have been swapped with a TRUB from the WR.

253 053-55 ran with 41172-74 initially.
253 053 and 253 055 with 41172 and 41174 on 05.08.82, 253 054 noted with 41173, 09.10.82 and still in set 22.12.82.
253 053 had 41167 by 13.11.82, 253 054 had 41168 by 09.01.83, 253 055 had 41169 by 02.01.83.

In regard to the last 3 NE/SW formations, 253 056 certainly did operate for a short period, noted 23.08.82 on 10.20 Penzance-Newcastle and on 06.09.82 with 08.10 Newcastle-Plymouth. Formation on both dates 43177/120, 41167, 40035, 42322, 42126, 42122, 42134, 44000, 43120. I don't think 253 057/058 were ever formed up on the WR.

253 027 moved to the ER in October 81. When the MML HST service started there were initially only 5 diagrams NL 315-319. There were also 7 ECML diagrams for 2+7 TRUB sets, BN 301/2/3, NL 312/13 and HT 321/22. The ex-WR sets 253 022-026 (2+7) sets were absorbed in to the ECML fleet alongside 254 012-20 which were also 2+7 TRUB sets having lost their TRUK and TRSBs in exchange for ex-WR TRUBs in late 1981/early 1982. This pool of 15 sets covered the 12 ECML/MML 2+7 diagrams with none being dedicated to a particular route.

253 019-021 moved to the ER in May 1983, which in theory along with ex-253 022-027, 254 012-20 and 254 044/5/6 gave the ER a pool of 21 sets formed as 2+7. The number of ER 2+7 diagrams remained the same (seven) from 16.05.83, but the MML diagrams increased to 10 - NL 321-330.

In regard to the 3 ex NE-SW sets that became 254 044-046, I have no direct observation of the first (254 044) and can't find any elsewhere. Was it ever formed up?

254 045 was noted on 24.01.83 - 43062/93, 41174/3, 40349, 42138/130/134, 44093.

254 046 was noted on 31.05.83 - 43104/066, 41175/76, 40350, 42146/150/154, 44094 (40350 was noted on the WR 03.83).

 

[theblackwatch]

Thanks @Commoner , interesting stuff there as always and I will have to admit, although I was probably correct about 253057/58 never being formed and 41172-74 operating in 253053-55, I was wrong about 253056 never being formed up. It's quite ironic that it appears that it was disbanded rather than being reformed into 254044. I note that between the February and July 1984 Platform 5 books , 'SET 44' (as it was listed) changed from a formation to 'Disbanded'.

I've done a bit more digging into 253056 this morning and found some more logs of it on the HST-gen forum. The first is on 10.08.82, when it had 42302 & 43175 vice 42134 & 43120, although 42134 was in the set three days later. The final observation is on 18.09.82 when it had 43164 rather than 43177. By 14.10.82, 41167 had moved into 253053, and on 08.10.82, 42126 was in 254013 on the MML. Given that there was a BR timetable change on 03.10.82, perhaps it was disbanded then - although Roger Harris gives 10.10.82 as the transfer date of the vehicles which officially formed 253056 to NL.

 

[Helvellyn]

Interesting stuff indeed coming out of this thread. I had never realised so many 2+7 sets ran on the ECML alongside the MML. Possibly another reason the ER ditched the '254' in set formations with so many of what would technically be 253s operating!

So if there is a question as to whether SET44 was ever formed up, did 42158 definitely get converted to TF 41177?

 

[theblackwatch]

So if there is a question as to whether SET44 was ever formed up, did 42158 definitely get converted to TF 41177?

A good question, but yes it was. When they were converted (location tbc), they were seen lined up at Neville Hill which caused a 'what are they?' question! There are also details of it formed in 254046 (or would it be 'SET 46') on various occasions between May 83 and Jan 84.

 

[43096]

Interesting stuff indeed coming out of this thread. I had never realised so many 2+7 sets ran on the ECML alongside the MML. Possibly another reason the ER ditched the '254' in set formations with so many of what would technically be 253s operating!

The mix of 7 and 8 cars formations as a result of the TRUKs being stood down and transfer in of "253" sets was the reason why BR ordered an additional 19 TS vehicles in 1983 on lot 30983. They were part of an authorisation from the DoT ("of" not "for" back then!) for 60 Mark 3s. The rest were delivered as the Mark 3b build of FOs (38 vehicles) and the three BFOs.

 

[43096]

Just as a bit of "History Today", TC 46015 has gone for scrap to Sims at Newport today. This was TF 41179 and originally TRUK 40505; converted to a TF in the late 1990s.

 

[hexagon789]

Just as a bit of "History Today", TC 46015 has gone for scrap to Sims at Newport today. This was TF 41179 and originally TRUK 40505; converted to a TF in the late 1990s.

One of the first TRUKs then? As in it would've been one of the longer serving trailers

 

[Grumpy]

The really sad thing about all this is that BR never designed a proper Trailer Second, for example with window sizes that were properly aligned with seating bays. The argument was always given that they had to use the same bodyshell as the Trailer First in order to save design costs. Then they went and produced seven designs of catering vehicle...

 

[Western Sunset]

But wasn't part of the "eight side window openings" thing to do with the inherent structure of the Mk3 bodyshell? Would nine (or ten) windows, say to match the second class seating, alter the dynamics and strength of the whole coach. Just wondering.....

 

[Helvellyn]

The really sad thing about all this is that BR never designed a proper Trailer Second, for example with window sizes that were properly aligned with seating bays. The argument was always given that they had to use the same bodyshell as the Trailer First in order to save design costs. Then they went and produced seven designs of catering vehicle...

It was to give flexibility in the coach design to allow easy conversion between First and Standard Class, plus as has been mentioned it simplifie construction in terms of the jigs. Catering vehicles have been converted to saloons and vice versa, which shows the flexibility of the essential standard body shell. It was only with construction of the Sleepers that modified jigs were required.

As to the catering vehicles it was essentially three designs - TRUK and TRSB, later replaced by the single TRUB. Passenger accommodation changes and refurbishments accounted for the variations.

Design simplification with bodyshells started with the move from the Mark 1 to Mark 2 with essentially three designs - FK, BFK/BSO and TSO/SO. That only changed for the 2Cs onwards where the BSO got it's own bodyshell rather than sharing the BFK one, but for the 2Es and 2Fs the design was FO, TSO and BSO.

The Mark 2 to Mark 3 transition took that a step further, which was repeated with the Mark 4s.