HST Viability for Rail tour Traffic

[43021HST]

This question, has probably been asked before buy hey ho, it's a public forum.

Anyway how viable would you think the use of HSTs would be for railtours, if any full sets enter preservation?

Personally I think there'll be very viable, being RA5, they could do most routes, 125mph capability so can stay out the way of service trains and obviously MK3s are far more crash worthy than MK1s still in use.

The only issue with HSTs is their application on preserved lines, obviously they can't run with a full rake of MK3s and they can't be used with MK1s due to coupler incompatibility. Furthermore the average punter would probably view them to be too modern to be of any interest.

May I just also note, the prototype HST at GC north has buckeye end couplings and ordinary air brake connections, meaning it can run with ordinary airbraked MK2s and 1s. Meanwhile I think Production HSTs utilise drawbars, meaning they only be used with MK3s. From what I understand The ETH output of HST's, means they supply a voltage that can only be used in HST MK3s and not your standard loco hauled coaches.

 

[yorkie]

This question, has probably been asked before buy hey ho, it's a public forum.

Anyway how viable would you think the use of HSTs would be for railtours,

Very viable, as evidenced by the fact such railtours have been, and continue to be, successful.

if any full sets enter preservation?

That is not a prerequisite as such tours already run.

The only issue with HSTs is their application on preserved lines, obviously they can't run with a full rake of MK3s and they can't be used with MK1s due to coupler incompatibility. Furthermore the average punter would probably view them to be too modern to be of any interest.

HSTs have run to various preserved lines and continue to do so.

 

[fgwrich]

HST Vehicles use the buck-eye set up so can couple to other buck-eye fitted stock. Electrical compatibility however is another well known issue.

 

[43096]

The only issue with HSTs is their application on preserved lines, obviously they can't run with a full rake of MK3s and they can't be used with MK1s due to coupler incompatibility. Furthermore the average punter would probably view them to be too modern to be of any interest.

May I just also note, the prototype HST at GC north has buckeye end couplings and ordinary air brake connections, meaning it can run with ordinary airbraked MK2s and 1s. Meanwhile I think Production HSTs utilise drawbars, meaning they only be used with MK3s. From what I understand The ETH output of HST's, means they supply a voltage that can only be used in HST MK3s and not your standard loco hauled coaches.

Not quite. HST stock has Alliance couplers, which are effectively fixed buckeye couplers. So a production HST power car can couple to any stock that has buckeye couplers and air brakes. As an example, back in November 41001 and the 125 Group's loco-hauled Mark 3s (with drophead buckeye couplers) were coupled to EMT HST vehicles.

ETH/ETS is a different issue, but in the main part of the year when you'd be using them preserved lines are not using train heat anyway. 41001 has conventional BR ETH, of course.

 

[edwin_m]

ETH/ETS is a different issue, but in the main part of the year when you'd be using them preserved lines are not using train heat anyway. 41001 has conventional BR ETH, of course.

However with few opening windows an ETH supply is likely to be needed in summer for air conditioning and to keep the train well ventilated and dry. When I last travelled on the GatEx rake on GCR(N) it smelled distinctly damp and they obviously weren't using the aircon.

I think there is scope for a small number of HSTs to be kept in service for charter and spot hire duties. I think they would have to get the 2020 mods though.

 

[MylesHSG]

I think it would be quite successful, especially if the exterior and interior were given a full period makeover.

 

[Bevan Price]

I would not be surprised to see several HST sets purchased by charter operators. Some could even have their coaches upgraded to luxury standard, to replace loco hauled stock on services such as Northern Belle, etc.

Indeed, the only residual loco-hauled charter stock may be a handful of sets for steam charters, and "enthusiast" diesel loco hauled charters.

 

[asylumxl]

Honestly, I'm not sure it'd be viable.

While HST operated rail tours seem relatively popular, they're mostly done using spare sets from a franchised TOC. I'd imagine these sets may well be sitting idle otherwise (for example, EMT's sets at Cricklewood) and thus it's seen as economically viable to generate some income from them instead, assuming various operating costs are covered.

I personally think the HSTs won't be viable for rail tours beyond scenarios like the one outlined above. One only has to look to the past at Cotswold Rail and their HST set to see what seems like a viable idea may turn out to be a rather poor one.

 

[BestWestern]

Honestly, I'm not sure it'd be viable.

While HST operated rail tours seem relatively popular, they're mostly done using spare sets from a franchised TOC. I'd imagine these sets may well be sitting idle otherwise (for example, EMT's sets at Cricklewood) and thus it's seen as economically viable to generate some income from them instead, assuming various operating costs are covered.

I personally think the HSTs won't be viable for rail tours beyond scenarios like the one outlined above. One only has to look to the past at Cotswold Rail and their HST set to see what seems like a viable idea may turn out to be a rather poor one.

What's the reason you feel it wouldn't be viable?

From a financial viewpoint, an HST should be no more expensive to operate that any other locomotive and coaches. If high speed running isn't essential, and it mostly probably won't be, they can happily operate with one of the power cars running, meaning a significant fuel saving. They also, of course, have constant insurance against a loco failure, meaning the cost and logistics associated with a train failure are less likely to crop up.

 

[TheBigD]

Back in the1990's Hertfordshire Railtours ran a number of HST railtours to such exotic locations as Sheringham, Whitby, Stanhope, Meldon Quarry and more...

 

[TimboM]

As people have mentioned, certainly would be viable and relatively straightforward, especially if kept together as HST sets.

The question for me is more the demand initially. From what I understand, due to the cascade, they'll be plenty of HSTs in mainline service for sometime to come, so for the majority of railtours they may not be 'interesting' enough as LHCS with different motive power (including steam, but also freight locos, heritage diesels/electrics etc.).

An extreme example, but I don't think GBRf15 would've been quite the same if it'd just been an HST set going up and down the country for 4 days...

I think it's more likely (as mentioned) their niche would be charters (e.g. Footex) or spot hires (when TOCs with their fancy new trains end up short for some reason) - i.e. when someone needs a functional, high-speed passenger train that can get from A-B at a decent pace.

Over the coming years as they gradually disappear from the mainlines, I can then see their popularity increase for railtours as they become nostalgic and more 'unusual'.

 

[asylumxl]

What's the reason you feel it wouldn't be viable?

From a financial viewpoint, an HST should be no more expensive to operate that any other locomotive and coaches. If high speed running isn't essential, and it mostly probably won't be, they can happily operate with one of the power cars running, meaning a significant fuel saving. They also, of course, have constant insurance against a loco failure, meaning the cost and logistics associated with a train failure are less likely to crop up.

Well, do most rail tour companies own their own locomotives or do they hire them in? I was under the impression it was usually the latter, though I am willing to be corrected. If it is indeed the latter, then what I said above will still be applicable and valid.

I imagine if a small spot-hire company took ownership of HST sets, they'd need enough work to cover the stabling/operating/maintenance costs of said sets. Will there be enough work? I'm unsure.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Back in the1990's Hertfordshire Railtours ran a number of HST railtours to such exotic locations as Sheringham, Whitby, Stanhope, Meldon Quarry and more...

I had the privilege of being on two in the late 1990s of which one was first class. What a fantastic experience it was!

 

[Kneedown]

However with few opening windows an ETH supply is likely to be needed in summer for air conditioning and to keep the train well ventilated and dry.

You need the ETS on an HST to be on all the time whatever the weather as it charges the batteries. Without it the batteries would drain within 2hrs, de-energising the E70 (brake control unit), bringing you to an abrupt halt.

 

[GrimShady]

They would make perfect "scenic" stock for the Kyle/North & West Highland lines!

 

[djpontrack]

I was on 2 HST Railtours in Feb 1990. The first one was from St Pancras to Kidderminster for the Severn Valley Railway, the other one was from Liverpool St to Lowestoft, Cromer and Kings Lynn. Both trips were very enjoyable and with plenty HST mileage.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Theres a HST railtour being run by the Branch Line Society this weekend using a VTEC HST set and being organised by the same people who organise the TPE tracker tours and the 3 Peaks charter. The Road to Craigy will take the train into Craigentinny Depot

 

[gimmea50anyday]

#boundforcraigy

 

[broadgage]

I agree that HSTs would seem ideal for rail tours, for the reasons suggested by others.
I foresee several being preserved, either for main line tours or even for regular use on longer heritage lines.
They ARE borderline heritage, remember that the first ones ran only a few years after the end of steam on BR.

Some years ago, the West Somerset railway ran an HST during the diesel gala, it was very popular indeed.

I would hope that the railway inspectorate might grant permission for HSTs to run at 40 MPH on selected heritage lines. It could reasonably be argued that an HST at 40 is no less safe than a steamer and vacuum braked wooden bodied stock at 25 MPH.

The first train of the morning to Minehead on the WSR is routinely overcrowded in the holiday season.
A fast HST service would be very welcome for those wanting to get to the beach ASAP. It could be followed by a steam hauled all stations service for those preferring a more traditional experience.
If the HST could start from Taunton, that would be better still.

 

[yorkie]

I agree that HSTs would seem ideal for rail tours, ....

Ideal once the coaches have been converted into table layout seating

 

[AnthonyRail]

ideal replacement when the steam loco fails on railtours

 

[broadgage]

Ideal once the coaches have been converted into table layout seating

Yes, or as I would prefer to say "converted BACK to seats at tables" IIRC the HSTs had all or almost all of the seats at tables when first built, and the bus seats have gradually multiplied with various improvements.

 

[Jonny]

Also they are able to go anywhere that a Loco+LHCS can (with a RA5 axle load) with ETH on top.