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HSTs - Are they sufficently crashworthy now, should they be withdrawn?

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edwin_m

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Whilst Grayrigg would have had more energy (around 3x as much), the RAIB report says it stopped within about 320m of the derailment point whilst at Stonehaven it hit the bridge parapet 60m after derailing. The longer stopping distance at Grayrigg would have resulted in (on average) lower forces as a result of the lower average deceleration



Using the numbers above, I make the average force at Stonehaven a little over twice the force at Greyrigg, though there's a lot more to it than basic mechanics, particularly as individual vehicles would have each experienced rather different forces throughout the incidents.

The similarity between incidents is purely a coincidence of where they both happened than anything else
Both accidents started with a derailment and running over a relatively benign surface with significant but not catastrophic deceleration. I suspect the OLE poles at Grayrigg would have made little difference, especially as they would have been hit head-on in a direction where the train has most structural strength (unlike Hatfield where the train rolled into one and tore a roof out). But at Grayrigg the train continued in a relatively benign environment whereas at Carmont it hit something close to an immovable obstacle. The front end would have decelerated very rapidly with most of the train deflected upwards or sideways.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Both accidents started with a derailment and running over a relatively benign surface with significant but not catastrophic deceleration. I suspect the OLE poles at Grayrigg would have made little difference, especially as they would have been hit head-on in a direction where the train has most structural strength (unlike Hatfield where the train rolled into one and tore a roof out). But at Grayrigg the train continued in a relatively benign environment whereas at Carmont it hit something close to an immovable obstacle. The front end would have decelerated very rapidly with most of the train deflected upwards or sideways.

I suppose you could analogise to plane crashes. Planes are not very crashworthy, while they do have some features e.g. the way the seats work to collapse downwards and forwards to absorb energy, the primary safety thing is preventing them hitting things in the first place. A plane can belly-land and slide a fair way and everyone survives. But if it hits an immovable object, there won't be a lot left.
 

Pacco

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It's a 50-year-old design of a fibreglass cab.

Previous official reports have indicated they have little to no crash worthy properties.

There's nothing else to be said really.
 

ainsworth74

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I suspect the OLE poles at Grayrigg would have made little difference, especially as they would have been hit head-on in a direction where the train has most structural strength (unlike Hatfield where the train rolled into one and tore a roof out).

I'm not so sure, from the full report:

543 The misalignment between vehicles one and two developed into a jack-knife condition as the rear of vehicle two was being pushed by the trailing vehicles. The yaw angle of vehicle one relative to the track (when viewed from above) increased anticlockwise and as it experienced increasing lateral drag on its bogies, resulting in overturning forces, it rolled progressively over onto its right-hand side. It struck an overhead line equipment mast (M1) on the left-hand side of the track while partially rolled over as shown in Figure 34, leaving impact marks on the vehicle’s cantrail and roof...

544 Vehicle one continued to yaw in an anticlockwise sense as it was pushed by the remainder of the train. When it was approximately perpendicular to the track and rolled over about 70 degrees onto its right-hand side, its trailing end struck mast M2 (Figure 34)...

545 Vehicle two, after becoming detached from the leading vehicle, continued to run misaligned and was pushed into yawing in a clockwise sense by the following vehicles. The trailing end of vehicle two struck overhead line equipment mast M3 as shown in Figure 35. Thereafter, it began to roll on to its left-hand side as the overturning forces resulting from the drag on its bogies increased. Its leading end then struck two overhead line equipment masts on the up line (M4 and M5 in Figure 35) and its centre section struck mast M6 on the down line...

It might be me having the wrong mental image but I'm not sure any of the impacts were head on and indeed at least two of them (M1 onto vehicle one and M6 onto vehicle two) sound like they were in potentially very damaging locations.
 

43096

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It's a 50-year-old design of a fibreglass cab.

Previous official reports have indicated they have little to no crash worthy properties.

There's nothing else to be said really.
Would you care to quote these reports?
 

edwin_m

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I suppose you could analogise to plane crashes. Planes are not very crashworthy, while they do have some features e.g. the way the seats work to collapse downwards and forwards to absorb energy, the primary safety thing is preventing them hitting things in the first place. A plane can belly-land and slide a fair way and everyone survives. But if it hits an immovable object, there won't be a lot left.
The Japanese approach for the Shinkansen was to assume trains won't collide rather than building in a lot of crashworthiness. This was probably more acceptable on an all-new network with ATP, and without level crossings and other hazards found on historic railways.
 

najaB

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The Japanese approach for the Shinkansen was to assume trains won't collide rather than building in a lot of crashworthiness.
This might be me being pedantic, but rather than their approach being to "assume that trains won't collide", wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they spend the engineering capital on avoiding a collision where we spend it on mitigating the results of a collision?
 

fishwomp

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Exactly - things move on. The Mark 3 was no doubt excellent when it was new, but the design is now over 50 years old. The Mark 1 was considered a huge improvement on earlier stock when new as well, but when the design was about 40 years old, we had the absolute carnage of Clapham. The destruction and loss of life was directly attributable to the design and age of the vehicles concerned, and it was quite rightly considered completely unacceptable for the modern railway.


I thought there were 6 people on board, but even so, that's a third of the passengers and staff on board. Small in absolute terms, but still a tragedy, and if the train had been full, we'd potentially be looking at dozens of fatalities. We need to know if the age and condition of the stock led this to be worse than it may otherwise have been.

There are occasionally accidents of unthinkable magnitude and high casualty rates -
101 of 295 passengers and crew perished in much newer stock in Germany: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment - for example. Worse than Carmont proportionally.

For Carmont, for any rolling stock with that derailment and trajectory it is not going to end well. However, I will wait for the enquiry, RAIB and recommendations etc as to the role of the HST and lessons there. There can be no doubt that if the condition of HST was an issue, it will be covered.
 

Killingworth

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And at Eschede most of the survivors escaped the derailment by virtue of being ahead of the carriage that caused it.
It was a fault in a tyre on a wheel of the third axle of the front car that started the chain of events that caused that disaster. The first 3 carriages and leading locomotive were clear of the wreckage after the derailment and subsequent bridge demolition.

The 'what ifs' there included if it had been more heavily loaded or if the train passing in the opposite direction had been a couple of minutes later. The investigators focused on the elements that failed and the lessons to be learned, as will the RAIB.

(I'm reminded of the proverb that sets out the chain of events following from the loss of one horse shoe nail to the loss of the kingdom.)

Both an old train that's had a generally good accident safety record for over 40 years or a new Azuma travelling at speed will derail if they hit an obstruction on the track.

And today we hear all of them are suspect! Bring out the HSTs!
 

Pacco

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Would you care to quote these reports?
I tried to find it but I didn't, I'm sorry. I'm hungover right now. It is in Gareth's video from last week. Everyone knows the cab is a fibreglass tub bolted to the chassis.

Also see the below. I know it's not 'evidence' but come on, is it so hard to believe a really old thing is not as safe as a much less old thing?

If you read beyond Gareth's bit in the article, the section written by the driver is far more interesting.

The issue with the Driver's cab is hard to dispute. In the Cullen Inquiry into the Ladbroke Grove crash the HST Cab was described as being of "no significant structural strength" unable to resist loads above the underframe and "that it provided minimal protection for the driver in a collision." One of the recommendations of the report was to suggest that HST cabs ought to be strengthened.

As for the coaches - the older ones are 40+ years old. The accident reports describing them as strong and crashworthy are considering them by the standards of the time, 20 years ago when there still were a large number of Mk1 and Mk2 coaches in service. At the time in comparison they weren't bad. By today's standards it's an almost 50 year old design.

This accident had the potential to be Britain's worst for 30-50 years. It was blind luck that so few people died. It's absolutely right that this is being scrutinised.
There you go, it was here all along. Silly me.

The Cullen Inquiry.
 

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35B

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I tried to find it but I didn't, I'm sorry. I'm hungover right now. It is in Gareth's video from last week. Everyone knows the cab is a fibreglass tub bolted to the chassis.

Also see the below. I know it's not 'evidence' but come on, is it so hard to believe a really old thing is not as safe as a much less old thing?
No one’s arguing the HST is “as safe” as a more modern design - I’d be disappointed if someone introduced a new design with HST power car level structural safety today. The question is whether the allegations made about risk on HST justifying their replacement on safety grounds stand up to scrutiny, and there this layman feels absolutely not - the safety record of HSTs is genuinely good.

I am also not convinced by the “new is better” mantra. We have a large fleet of multiple units stored because their yaw dampers are falling off, from a manufacturer whose poor design was directly implicated in a runaway incident (the sleepers into Edinburgh in 2019]. Meanwhile, the Hitachi designed cl. 80x were introduced with TMS systems that caused dangerous distraction to the driver, and with a design that caused a minor shunting incident to foul adjacent running lines in a way that could have been lethal had it happened at (say) Doncaster p3. Those same trains have also all been pulled from service for inspection today because of concerns over the welds- rather a crucial component, especially in a high energy incident like Carmont if you want the bodyshells to remain intact and not open up like a zip.
 

fishwomp

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No one’s arguing the HST is “as safe” as a more modern design - I’d be disappointed if someone introduced a new design with HST power car level structural safety today. The question is whether the allegations made about risk on HST justifying their replacement on safety grounds stand up to scrutiny, and there this layman feels absolutely not - the safety record of HSTs is genuinely good.

I am also not convinced by the “new is better” mantra. ..
Those same trains have also all been pulled from service for inspection today because of concerns over the welds- rather a crucial component, especially in a high energy incident like Carmont if you want the bodyshells to remain intact and not open up like a zip.

I believe it is only the yaw dampers rather than the bodyshell.

Totally agree that new isn't always better.,.. the examples of Hitachi and CAF should be seen as temporary goofs rather than an intended lower structural integrity design point.

However.. at Ladbroke Grove the 165 peeled apart ("disintegrated"), and the HST did not - I think 165's aluminium welding of the body was cited as behind that problem and that was more than a simple weak point., It was the MK3 carriage sprayed with an aerosol of fuel that Ignited which cost lives of those in the HST. The 165 was 20 years younger than the MK3.

Again against a new is better,.. noone could argue that a 142 had really advanced the cause of rail vehicle integrity, and that also a design 10 years newer than the MK3. Whilst I doubt we shall ever see a 142 break the 100mph record, it could have be en struck by something doing that (don't recall Winsford speed but wasn't that high)
 

scotraildriver

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I believe it is only the yaw dampers rather than the bodyshell.

Totally agree that new isn't always better.,.. the examples of Hitachi and CAF should be seen as temporary goofs rather than an intended lower structural integrity design point.

However.. at Ladbroke Grove the 165 peeled apart ("disintegrated"), and the HST did not - I think 165's aluminium welding of the body was cited as behind that problem and that was more than a simple weak point., It was the MK3 carriage sprayed with an aerosol of fuel that Ignited which cost lives of those in the HST. The 165 was 20 years younger than the MK3.

Again against a new is better,.. noone could argue that a 142 had really advanced the cause of rail vehicle integrity, and that also a design 10 years newer than the MK3. Whilst I doubt we shall ever see a 142 break the 100mph record, it could have be en struck by something doing that (don't recall Winsford speed but wasn't that high)
Out of the 31 deaths at Ladbroke Grove 24 were in the Thames Turbo, 23 in the leading coach.
 

skyhigh

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I note that Mr Dennis is now suggesting that the cracks on the 80x are due to having the additional weight of engines that they weren't originally designed for...... he might have a point, but I'm going to take anything he says with a pinch of salt
 

35B

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I note that Mr Dennis is now suggesting that the cracks on the 80x are due to having the additional weight of engines that they weren't originally designed for...... he might have a point, but I'm going to take anything he says with a pinch of salt
If his suggestion is at all right, I think it says something slightly different to what he hopes about his profession.
 

Domh245

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I note that Mr Dennis is now suggesting that the cracks on the 80x are due to having the additional weight of engines that they weren't originally designed for...... he might have a point, but I'm going to take anything he says with a pinch of salt

Given that 80x were always designed to be bi-modal (GWR to Gloucester, LNER to Inverness, etc), I think we can completely ignore anything he says about rolling stock, at the least!!!!
 

skyhigh

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Given that 80x were always designed to be bi-modal (GWR to Gloucester, LNER to Inverness, etc), I think we can completely ignore anything he says about rolling stock, at the least!!!!
Yes, sorry - badly worded! I meant he might have a point regarding HSTs, but the comment on 80x is clearly rubbish.
 

bramling

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I believe it is only the yaw dampers rather than the bodyshell.

Totally agree that new isn't always better.,.. the examples of Hitachi and CAF should be seen as temporary goofs rather than an intended lower structural integrity design point.

However.. at Ladbroke Grove the 165 peeled apart ("disintegrated"), and the HST did not - I think 165's aluminium welding of the body was cited as behind that problem and that was more than a simple weak point., It was the MK3 carriage sprayed with an aerosol of fuel that Ignited which cost lives of those in the HST. The 165 was 20 years younger than the MK3.

Again against a new is better,.. noone could argue that a 142 had really advanced the cause of rail vehicle integrity, and that also a design 10 years newer than the MK3. Whilst I doubt we shall ever see a 142 break the 100mph record, it could have be en struck by something doing that (don't recall Winsford speed but wasn't that high)

It’s worth remembering that there were no passengers in the front vehicle of the HST at Ladbroke Grove, the power car concerned was certainly pretty severely damaged. The 165 front vehicle took the brunt of the heavy HST power car.

ISTR that whilst the failure mode of the 165 lead vehicle was certainly regarded as undesirable, it was also said that the performance of a steel vehicle probably wouldn’t have been materially better in terms of survivability, but the type of damage would have been different.

The next generation of vehicle design, sections being bolted together, hasn’t been tested in a serious accident.

As regards HSTs, two separate issues are becoming conflated. Any concerns about the Mk3s are inflated in my view - there’s been enough Mk3 accidents over the years to see that they generally perform well in accidents (though it has to be said that there has been an element of luck that comparatively lightly loaded first class was leading in the various GW accidents). Cab safety for drivers is a different matter, and this certainly merits some attention, as it isn’t really in doubt that the HST cab offers poor collision protection.
 

Bletchleyite

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As regards HSTs, two separate issues are becoming conflated. Any concerns about the Mk3s are inflated in my view - there’s been enough Mk3 accidents over the years to see that they generally perform well in accidents (though it has to be said that there has been an element of luck that comparatively lightly loaded first class was leading in the various GW accidents). Cab safety for drivers is a different matter, and this certainly merits some attention, as it isn’t really in doubt that the HST cab offers poor collision protection.

Indeed, and it may well be that that can be fixed, e.g. by fitting some sort of "roll cage".

On the other hand, that might be seen as uneconomic and withdrawal be hastened.

I'd be surprised if something wasn't done about that specific aspect.
 

edwin_m

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ISTR that whilst the failure mode of the 165 lead vehicle was certainly regarded as undesirable, it was also said that the performance of a steel vehicle probably wouldn’t have been materially better in terms of survivability, but the type of damage would have been different.
Here's the verdict on the crashworthiness of the DVT at Great Heck, a steel vehicle of similar vintage and in a fairly similar scenario to Southall:

The track obstruction by a road vehicle and subsequent train collisions at Great Heck 28 February 2001 - A report of the Health and Safety Executive investigation (railwaysarchive.co.uk)

7.10 As the DVT was the first vehicle to collide with the Class 66 locomotive it suffered massive structural damage, resulting in large sections of the vehicle becoming detached and dispersed over the crash site. The leading end cab structure was sheared off, and a 3 metre length of body section following this totally destroyed. The floor structure beneath the cab also became separated, 22 as did the obstacle deflector. The trailing end vestibule structure (the vestibule is the area adjacent to the corridor connection) was also sheared off at the under-frame, flattened, folded over and impressed into the main central portion of flattened body shell. Both bogies were detached; the leading one lost its leading wheelset.
7.12 The IC225 DVT suffered massive global impact damage during the collision with the freight train, as shown in Figure 9. This was a consequence of the relatively lightweight nature of the DVT (45 tonnes) in comparison to the freight locomotive (127 tonne), and also the lower ride height that was further reduced by the DVT being derailed prior to impact with the Class 66. The driver's cab was demolished and separated completely from the underframe. Any crashworthiness features of the DVT were totally compromised by the masses and speeds of the vehicles involved in the collision.
My bold may be pertinent.
 

najaB

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Cab safety for drivers is a different matter, and this certainly merits some attention, as it isn’t really in doubt that the HST cab offers poor collision protection.
That's true. Though it does seem that in some designers minds, driver survivability is too hard a problem to spend a lot of time on.
 

coppercapped

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I tried to find it but I didn't, I'm sorry. I'm hungover right now. It is in Gareth's video from last week. Everyone knows the cab is a fibreglass tub bolted to the chassis.

Also see the below. I know it's not 'evidence' but come on, is it so hard to believe a really old thing is not as safe as a much less old thing?


There you go, it was here all along. Silly me.

The Cullen Inquiry.
Being drunk is not an excuse for posting such vitriol.

Some knowledge of physics and mechanical engineering would normally be considered good form if one is trying to make comments on the outcomes of accidents or the safety of particular designs of rolling stock.

Firstly, the HST cab might be only a ‘fibreglass tub’ but it is a very strong fibreglass tub. Since introduction on 1976 there have only been, by my count, three accidents where the train drivers have been killed. These are Ladbroke Grove, Ufton Nervet and now Carmont. In all three cases these were high speed incidents so the energies involved were considerable. It should also be noted that the causes of all three accidents and their development were very different in all cases.

At lower speeds the HST’s cab design affords protection to the levels expected when the train was designed in the late 1960s. For example at Newton Abbot in 1994 a 158 collided with the rear of a stationary HST which crumpled some fibreglass below the HST’s windscreen but bent the 158’s body sufficiently that the front doors jammed, see this Youtube video:


Similarly the nose of an HST left its mark on the front of a 150 which ran into it:


In March 2013 an HST struck a car on the level crossing at Athelney at around 100mph. The car driver was killed but the train did not derail and came to a stand about a mile further on. No passengers or crew were injured; a very different outcome to the almost identical crash at Ufton Nervet or the events at Carmont

So, maybe a ‘fibreglass tub’ but a very strong one.

Equally there are clearly some weak points, at Lavington a fallen tree broke the near side pillar around the windscreen as the HST hit it at speed. Luckily the driver ducked in time but the resulting pictures were dramatic.

The point about all this is, as others have pointed out already, a design does not become ‘unsafe’ overnight simply because an accident has occurred. Design standards have evolved over the years from the ability to withstand compressive loads at buffer and coupler level, common up to the 1950s, to improvements in ‘anti-telescoping’ features in the 1950s for coaching stock, firstly in the BR Mark 1 coach and more comprehensively in the monocoque Mark 2. All this stock has co-existed, later stock has not replaced the earlier in one fell swoop.

By the 1980s British Rail began to investigate the incorporation of ‘crumple zones’ at the ends of passenger vehicles to absorb energy in ‘head on’ impacts and led to the demonstration that the capability of vehicles to absorb one megajoule of energy would help to ameliorate the effect of collisions at speeds up to 40 mph. Since then designs have been evolved which can absorb 5-10 megajoules.

It should be made clear that the energies involved in high speed head on collisions are enormous. At a constant velocity kinetic energy increases linearly with train mass but the kinetic energy increases as the square of its velocity so at high speeds the values are enormous. Very approximately, a 40 tonne rail vehicle moving at 25kph (say 16mph) has a kinetic energy of nearly 1 megajoule, at 100kph (62mph) it's just over 15 megajoules and at 200kph it's 62 megajoules. A ten coach train travelling at 200kph will therefore contain some 620 megajoules of energy. This is more than sixty times that which can be absorbed in one crumple zone at the front of the train.

It is an unfortunate but unavoidable fact that this level of energy cannot be dissipated in the length and dimensions of the space available in front of the driver if the deceleration levels are to be kept tolerable. At best, protection for the driver can be provided for impacts into immoveable objects at moderate speeds and this is specified for new rail vehicle designs in British Standard BS EN 15227:2008 and amendments. In its preamble it is stated that the requirements are to provide a level of protection by addressing the most common types of collision that cause injuries and fatalities, they do not cover all possible accident scenarios but provide a level of crashworthiness that will reduce the consequences of an accident, when the active safety measures have been inadequate. The crashworthiness specifications are intended to enhance the safety of passengers and train crew, in the event of a collision. Thus the theoretical survival area, for example part of the driving compartment, must remain intact following a collision. Collision scenarios are given in Clause 5:
  • a head-on collision between two identical train formations;
  • a head-on collision between the train and a different type of rail-mounted vehicle;
  • a collision between the train and a large road vehicle on a level crossing;
  • a collision between the train and a smaller obstacle, such as a car on a level crossing, an animal or debris.
Three impact zones are defined: an upper level above the buffer/drawgear, a main level at the buffer/drawgear height and a lower level which tests the obstacle deflector.

The large road vehicle is modelled as a 15 tonne mass on a stand and BS EN 15227 requires that railway vehicles need to be able to absorb the energy of a crash that occurs at speeds up to 36 km/h, in old money that’s 22.37 mph. Given the mass of railway vehicles, this requirement equates to a need to absorb approximately 20 times more energy than a typical car crash.

In the 46 years since introduction, and heaven knows how many tens of millions of miles travelled, for the HSTs to have had only three driver fatalities is a remarkable achievement. This is not to say that the three fatalities were not tragedies which affected and continue to effect, the lives of the families and colleagues of those killed; it is simply to point out that such events are, thankfully, very, very rare.

Added in edit: If the DfT had not muddied the waters at the time when at least two TOCs were feeling their way to an 'HST2' and subsumed them into the Intercity Express Programme then newer and more robust cab designs may well have entered service a dozen years ago
 
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Bletchleyite

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I get the impression that the "buffer beam" is very strong (whether it has buffers on it or not), but the bit above it with the windscreen isn't. So a head-on with other pointy or flat-ended rolling stock would put an HST shaped dent in whatever it hit, but if you got a tree through the windscreen then all bets are off.

A bit like a Mk1 in a sense? A very strong underframe but not a strong body?
 

Pacco

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Being drunk is not an excuse for posting such vitriol.

Some knowledge of physics and mechanical engineering would normally be considered good form if one is trying to make comments on the outcomes of accidents or the safety of particular designs of rolling stock.

Firstly, the HST cab might be only a ‘fibreglass tub’ but it is a very strong fibreglass tub. Since introduction on 1976 there have only been, by my count, three accidents where the train drivers have been killed. These are Ladbroke Grove, Ufton Nervet and now Carmont. In all three cases these were high speed incidents so the energies involved were considerable. It should also be noted that the causes of all three accidents and their development were very different in all cases.

At lower speeds the HST’s cab design affords protection to the levels expected when the train was designed in the late 1960s. For example at Newton Abbot in 1994 a 158 collided with the rear of a stationary HST which crumpled some fibreglass below the HST’s windscreen but bent the 158’s body sufficiently that the front doors jammed, see this Youtube video:


Similarly the nose of an HST left its mark on the front of a 150 which ran into it:


In March 2013 an HST struck a car on the level crossing at Athelney at around 100mph. The car driver was killed but the train did not derail and came to a stand about a mile further on. No passengers or crew were injured; a very different outcome to the almost identical crash at Ufton Nervet or the events at Carmont

So, maybe a ‘fibreglass tub’ but a very strong one.

Equally there are clearly some weak points, at Lavington a fallen tree broke the near side pillar around the windscreen as the HST hit it at speed. Luckily the driver ducked in time but the resulting pictures were dramatic.

The point about all this is, as others have pointed out already, a design does not become ‘unsafe’ overnight simply because an accident has occurred. Design standards have evolved over the years from the ability to withstand compressive loads at buffer and coupler level, common up to the 1950s, to improvements in ‘anti-telescoping’ features in the 1950s for coaching stock, firstly in the BR Mark 1 coach and more comprehensively in the monocoque Mark 2. All this stock has co-existed, later stock has not replaced the earlier in one fell swoop.

By the 1980s British Rail began to investigate the incorporation of ‘crumple zones’ at the ends of passenger vehicles to absorb energy in ‘head on’ impacts and led to the demonstration that the capability of vehicles to absorb one megajoule of energy would help to ameliorate the effect of collisions at speeds up to 40 mph. Since then designs have been evolved which can absorb 5-10 megajoules.

It should be made clear that the energies involved in high speed head on collisions are enormous. At a constant velocity kinetic energy increases linearly with train mass but the kinetic energy increases as the square of its velocity so at high speeds the values are enormous. Very approximately, a 40 tonne rail vehicle moving at 25kph (say 16mph) has a kinetic energy of nearly 1 megajoule, at 100kph (62mph) it's just over 15 megajoules and at 200kph it's 62 megajoules. A ten coach train travelling at 200kph will therefore contain some 620 megajoules of energy. This is more than sixty times that which can be absorbed in one crumple zone at the front of the train.

It is an unfortunate but unavoidable fact that this level of energy cannot be dissipated in the length and dimensions of the space available in front of the driver if the deceleration levels are to be kept tolerable. At best, protection for the driver can be provided for impacts into immoveable objects at moderate speeds and this is specified for new rail vehicle designs in British Standard BS EN 15227:2008 and amendments. In its preamble it is stated that the requirements are to provide a level of protection by addressing the most common types of collision that cause injuries and fatalities, they do not cover all possible accident scenarios but provide a level of crashworthiness that will reduce the consequences of an accident, when the active safety measures have been inadequate. The crashworthiness specifications are intended to enhance the safety of passengers and train crew, in the event of a collision. Thus the theoretical survival area, for example part of the driving compartment, must remain intact following a collision. Collision scenarios are given in Clause 5:
  • a head-on collision between two identical train formations;
  • a head-on collision between the train and a different type of rail-mounted vehicle;
  • a collision between the train and a large road vehicle on a level crossing;
  • a collision between the train and a smaller obstacle, such as a car on a level crossing, an animal or debris.
Three impact zones are defined: an upper level above the buffer/drawgear, a main level at the buffer/drawgear height and a lower level which tests the obstacle deflector.

The large road vehicle is modelled as a 15 tonne mass on a stand and BS EN 15227 requires that railway vehicles need to be able to absorb the energy of a crash that occurs at speeds up to 36 km/h, in old money that’s 22.37 mph. Given the mass of railway vehicles, this requirement equates to a need to absorb approximately 20 times more energy than a typical car crash.

In the 46 years since introduction, and heaven knows how many tens of millions of miles travelled, for the HSTs to have had only three driver fatalities is a remarkable achievement. This is not to say that the three fatalities were not tragedies which affected and continue to effect, the lives of the families and colleagues of those killed; it is simply to point out that such events are, thankfully, very, very rare.

Added in edit: If the DfT had not muddied the waters at the time when at least two TOCs were feeling their way to an 'HST2' and subsumed them into the Intercity Express Programme then newer and more robust cab designs may well have entered service a dozen years ago
I apologise for the flippancy of my remark.

I am simply saying that these vehicles are far from modern safety standards and as a driver you should be entitled to feel safe when doing your job. Clearly at least one does not.

I am purely an interested layman here. If anyone disagrees with any of my views I completely respect that.
 

tbtc

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Pacers were scrapped in my view too early, largely because of hyperbole in newspapers and (justifiably) for reasons of accessibility

...but they were scrapped - deemed unfit for service - even if it meant some people would have to stand or use less safe means of transport

Hyperbole

Hyperbole.

Hyperbole.

You may not like it, but this is the reality of the situation.

Look at today's news about the 800/801/802s. A problem was found and they were taken out of service (as has happened in the past with various different types of stock - the 195/331s recently, but many unit classes had periods where they were taken out of service and some safety modifications were addressed)

The decision about the 800/801/802s wasn't based on whether people would have to stand on other trains or whether that'd encourage more people to take bigger risks by driving - it's a simple question of "is this train safe enough" - all of your discussion over people having to stand or cars being more dangerous is just whatabouttery

I think we sometimes forget on here that we are talking about people's workplaces - they should be as safe as reasonably possible

But, as far as I'm aware, no such minimum standards for crashworthiness of legacy stock exist. How would they be defined? How would you pick and choose which standards are and are not applied to legacy stock? ("It can be up to this much less safe than new stock"). Emissions can at least have a quantifiable threshold applied to it, gradually incremented over time.

Old stock basically exists on grandfather rights from when it was designed combined with practicable modifications as the years go by.

The only logical way to do this would be, when some requirement or other is updated, state a requirement that older stock only gets a pass for 10/15/20 (whatever) years, after which point the standard would apply to everything.

Its like slam door stock IMHO - that was deemed "safe" when HSTs were being built but standards changed - they became seen as too dangerous - we then had to decide whether to introduce power doors or scrap them

That's how all stock should be - we can't allow people to keep sticking their heads out of windows just because it was acceptable once upon a time

The question is whether the HST is actually unsafe. A truly exceptional incident is being extrapolated from to draw a conclusion that these trains are not safe.

There are many good reasons to replace HST, and it is an indictment of rolling stock design that the MK3 has not seriously been improved upon in nearly 50 years (I’ve yet to experience Flirt, and am no great fan of either 80x or 390). But the argument that they need replacement because they’re unsafe is both ridiculous hyperbole and, more seriously, increasing public risk by undermining confidence in rail safety; something that can and will lead to people choosing more dangerous alternatives to rail

I don't know if HSTs are "safe" (that's for the RAIB to determine), but we can't base our railway safety on the grounds of "well, it's not as safe as it could be but at least it's better than on the roads, so we'll allow it" - this shouldn't be some Lowest Common Denominator thing, where we turn a blind eye to unsafe practices on the railway because it's still safer than roads - we need to be better than that

Rail safety is not road safety, they're incomparable. We aspire to having the safest railway in the world because we believe that there is no acceptable level of fatalities or injuries. We don't aspire to mediocrity or the "that'll do" attitude or comfort ourselves in statistics that it's safer than driving a car

Agreed - I'm surprised at some of the people on here shrugging safety concerns off by trying to compare Apples with Oranges

The UK rail network strives to minimise and manage safety risk to a level that is "as low as reasonably practicable". With a target that everybody goes home safe, every day.

Which is as it should be (rather than ignoring reasonable improvements that could be made because we imagine that railway safety is some kind of "competition" against other modes of transport)

Extending his logic to the obvious ultimate conclusion you would have to withdraw all existing trains every time that safety standards change, which would be utter nonsense. Why only trains too? Airliners, coaches, buses, cars....

Obviously if older items are evaluated as excessively risky (eg Mk 1 and earlier stock, slam doors etc) that is a different issue.

I'd expect that old stock still needed to meet some minimum standards (in terms of safety, emissions, accessibility etc) - it doesn't have to be the same as brand new stock but standards improve - what was acceptable in the past (sticking your head out of the window so you could reach the door handle, toilets that aren't accessible) becomes unacceptable in the future - there should be a period of grace in which we can decide whether to upgrade the old stuff or scrap it
 

Ianno87

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Its like slam door stock IMHO - that was deemed "safe" when HSTs were being built but standards changed - they became seen as too dangerous - we then had to decide whether to introduce power doors or scrap them

That's how all stock should be - we can't allow people to keep sticking their heads out of windows just because it was acceptable once upon a time

You're missing my point. How and when (and on what grounds) you determine the point at which something becomes "unacceptable"? Bearing in mind where that bar is set has quite significant implications for the economics of the railway as a whole.

I'm not disagreeing that HSTs aren't "old hat" now. But it's a balance between keeping safety risk low and recognising that stock is designed (and accounted) for a 35+ year lifespan. Some level of non-compliance with the latest safety standards is inevitable in any legacy stock - what level of non-compliance is "acceptable" - how is that determined?

Although, frankly, HSTs should possibly always have had power doors, it wasn't exactly space age technology at the time!
 
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I'd expect that old stock still needed to meet some minimum standards (in terms of safety, emissions, accessibility etc) - it doesn't have to be the same as brand new stock but standards improve - what was acceptable in the past (sticking your head out of the window so you could reach the door handle, toilets that aren't accessible) becomes unacceptable in the future - there should be a period of grace in which we can decide whether to upgrade the old stuff or scrap it.
You're missing my point. How and when (and on what grounds) you determine the point at which something becomes "unacceptable"? Bearing in mind where that bar is set has quite significant implications for the economics of the railway as a whole.

I'm not disagreeing that HSTs aren't "old hat" now. But it's a balance between keeping safety risk low and recognising that stock is designed (and accounted) for a 35+ year lifespan. Some level of non-compliance with the latest safety standards is inevitable in any legacy stock - what level of non-compliance is "acceptable" - how is that determined?

Although, frankly, HSTs should possibly always have had power doors, it wasn't exactly space age technology at the time!
At the heart of it, my impression is that the HST upgrades should not have been allowed. For legacy stock obviously the safety standards of the time will have to be tolerated. But the HST refurbishments basically intended to refit sliding doors on ageing withdrawn trains and (in Scotrail's case at least) pass them onto a new operator presented as a new fleet with an indeterminate length of service left, where some locomotives may serve until they're in their 60s.

Essentially they've exercised grandfather rights on safety where I really think they ought not to have.
 

Ianno87

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At the heart of it, my impression is that the HST upgrades should not have been allowed. For legacy stock obviously the safety standards of the time will have to be tolerated. But the HST refurbishments basically intended to refit sliding doors on ageing withdrawn trains and (in Scotrail's case at least) pass them onto a new operator presented as a new fleet with an indeterminate length of service left, where some locomotives may serve until they're in their 60s.

Essentially they've exercised grandfather rights on safety where I really think they ought not to have.

Fair point. Perhaps old-stock-on-new routes should be considered to need to comply to full standards, where old use is significantly changed. Or at least risk-assessed.
 
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